926 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Arcian wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

The Catalyst said synthetics are also harvested.How does that work?

Stick em in the dirt, hope for rain, wait a few months and hope something crops up before winter.

Sprinkling ground up Batarians on them tends to help.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

You're both wrong. Clearly synthetics grow on trees. Isn't that what the circuits on the plants are for in synthesis?

Synthesis proves that synthetics are trees. I am right, and so am I.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 21 juin 2013 - 02:46 .

[Redbelle]

Are we suggesting that the synth beam created some form of Cyber Ent?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Redbelle wrote...

Are we suggesting that the synth beam created some form of Cyber Ent?

It's the only logical explanation.

[tanisha__unknown]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Sevial is not from a native English-speaking country. I'm sure at least some of you are well aware of that. It's not an easy language to master as a #2, so give the word-choice nitpicking a rest (... so much for great "understanding"). It's not hard to figure out brainwashing means in that context, either. I can do it. Why can't you?

And let's not act like people around here (many of whom probably know English as a first language) don't frequently and consciously use dramatic and over-the-top word choice to give their own ideas shock value, either!

As for "what Shepard feels"... Shepard is basically a brick w/o player projection. Obvious pedantry is obvious.


... 'outta here 'til ~6. Can't wait to see what I'll come back to ITT.

It is a difference wether I call someone quirky or insane. Seival has demonstrated a very profound use of language, I assume he knows that the term brainwashing is not a synonym to having an influence on someone through a nice chat.

Admittedly I am not much of a fan of over the top word choice and overly dramatic impressions, but what Seival states is not a slightly stronger choice of words to enhance drama, but in this context it is plain out wrong.


If you find anything you might want to criticize in my post, please take into account that I am not from an english-speaking country either:devil:

Edit: in my opinion English is one of the easiest language to master as 2nd. Spanish, French, Russian, Mandarin, Punjabi and German much harder to learn.

Modifié par Jinx1720, 21 juin 2013 - 02:02 .

[tanisha__unknown]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

You're both wrong. Clearly synthetics grow on trees. Isn't that what the circuits on the plants are for in synthesis?

Synthesis proves that synthetics are trees. I am right, and so am I.

Then probably synthetics trees can grow from synthetics.

[N7recruit]

Well in the Mass effect universe yeah, "Memory is identity". According to Javick and his Memory is in DNA & Life leaves behind traces mumbo jumbo then yeah, anyone with his sensory ability can read it. I assume the whole Destructive analysis that the Reapers employ when harvesting utilises something similar to this as they probably use a highly advanced version of the technique. (AKA Liquefying people Lol)

Although we all lack context of what it's like to be a Reaper which the narrative has always painted in a horrifying light, as "Corrupt", turning us against the very idea of it

It could be something somewhat interesting for the next games if they chose to explore it PROPERLY, But it just came off as poorly worded, ham fisted high minded Bull**** in this Trilogy that dose not belong in it.

As for a Synthesised setting for Mass effect whatever, I'd be reluctant in diving into it as I feel they kinda messed up the concept already. Hell I'm currently wondering how they could keep Mass Effect relevant in general without it going up it's own ass hole but time will tell.

Thanks for the food for thought Sevial, you put A LOT more thought into this than BioWare did

[Ravensword]

Easy. They'll just reboot the series or set it far into the future.

Pretty much everone else put more thought into the game than BW did.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

N7recruit wrote...

Thanks for the food for thought Sevial, you put A LOT more thought into this than BioWare did

 It's too bad he goes with the most far fetched and impossible idea's and calls it objective.

He puts a lot of effort into his theories. That's about the only thing I'll give him. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Jinx1720 wrote...

Admittedly I am not much of a fan of over the top word choice and overly dramatic impressions, but what Seival states is not a slightly stronger choice of words to enhance drama, but in this context it is plain out wrong.

We have folks in another thread trying to pass the word "rape" for something it is not.

This nonsense is just par for the course around here; they can't even use language-barrier as an excuse.

If you find anything you might want to criticize in my post, please take into account that I am not from an english-speaking country either:devil:

Edit: in my opinion English is one of the easiest language to master as 2nd. Spanish, French, Russian, Mandarin, Punjabi and German much harder to learn.

YMMV, ofc. I know a guy from Canada (born language is French) and he generally is understandable but he always complains that it does not come naturally to him, and he feels like a 10-year old (he's well over 30) when speaking.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 22 juin 2013 - 03:40 .

[xlegionx]

 @HYR 2.0:
While the word is more commonly used in context to sexual abuse, here is the entry on rape from dictionary.com:

"rape1   [reyp]  Show IPA noun, verb, raped, rap·ing.noun1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.3. statutory rape.4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.5. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.verb (used with object)6. to force to have sexual intercourse.7. to plunder (a place); despoil.8. to seize, take, or carry off by force."

So as you can see, the use of the word is not restricted to non-consenual sexual intercourse. So the use of rape in this context is perfectly acceptable, as regardless of how benign the changes Synthesis are, they were still brought about through force without the consent of the people changed.

As for Seival, his use of the word "brainwash" was overreacting, and in fact his definition of brainwashing would classify Synthesis as brainwashing as well.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

xlegionx wrote...

 @HYR 2.0:
While the word is more commonly used in context to sexual abuse, here is the entry on rape from dictionary.com:

"rape1   [reyp]  Show IPA noun, verb, raped, rap·ing.noun1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.3. statutory rape.4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.5. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.verb (used with object)6. to force to have sexual intercourse.7. to plunder (a place); despoil.8. to seize, take, or carry off by force."

So as you can see, the use of the word is not restricted to non-consenual sexual intercourse. So the use of rape in this context is perfectly acceptable, as regardless of how benign the changes Synthesis are, they were still brought about through force without the consent of the people changed.

As for Seival, his use of the word "brainwash" was overreacting, and in fact his definition of brainwashing would classify Synthesis as brainwashing as well.

Yes.

Though in my opinion, Synthesis is worse than rape. I think it's worse than even genocide.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 22 juin 2013 - 03:57 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

xlegionx wrote...

 @HYR 2.0:
While the word is more commonly used in context to sexual abuse, here is the entry on rape from dictionary.com:

"rape1   [reyp]  Show IPA noun, verb, raped, rap·ing.noun1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.3. statutory rape.4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.5. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.verb (used with object)6. to force to have sexual intercourse.7. to plunder (a place); despoil.8. to seize, take, or carry off by force."

So as you can see, the use of the word is not restricted to non-consenual sexual intercourse. So the use of rape in this context is perfectly acceptable, as regardless of how benign the changes Synthesis are, they were still brought about through force without the consent of the people changed.

As for Seival, his use of the word "brainwash" was overreacting, and in fact his definition of brainwashing would classify Synthesis as brainwashing as well.

Definitions #4-8 don't even fit the description, either.

Sync is a process of change, not seizure/plunder. They are not synonymous terms.

And two can play that game... *looks up "brainwashing"*


brainwashing. [breyn-wosh-ing, -waw-shing] noun 1.a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs. 2.any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, especially one based on repetition or confusion: brainwashing by TV commercials. 3.an instance of subjecting or being subjected to such techniques: efforts to halt the brainwashing of captive audiences.

If Javik was repeatedly told by his Prothean compatriots that AI are bad, definition #1 would agree with it.

I'm stretching, ofc, but no more than you are.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

xlegionx wrote...

 @HYR 2.0:
While the word is more commonly used in context to sexual abuse, here is the entry on rape from dictionary.com:

"rape1   [reyp]  Show IPA noun, verb, raped, rap·ing.noun1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.3. statutory rape.4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.5. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.verb (used with object)6. to force to have sexual intercourse.7. to plunder (a place); despoil.8. to seize, take, or carry off by force."

So as you can see, the use of the word is not restricted to non-consenual sexual intercourse. So the use of rape in this context is perfectly acceptable, as regardless of how benign the changes Synthesis are, they were still brought about through force without the consent of the people changed.

As for Seival, his use of the word "brainwash" was overreacting, and in fact his definition of brainwashing would classify Synthesis as brainwashing as well.

Definitions #4-8 don't even fit the description, either.

Sync is a process of change, not seizure/plunder. They are not synonymous terms.

And two can play that game... *looks up "brainwashing"*

It also says violalion, despoilation, and abuse.

I know you don't agree, and I know it's subjective, but to me, Synthesis fits that like a glove.

It is also a process of change. Permanent change that is nonconsensual for all life that exists afterward.

Among my problems with synthesis (why are you calling it sync?), this is unacceptable to me. 

As for the other reasons (like the physical execution, "science" of synthesis, reasoning behind the ending problem, context, perspective on the issue, and thematic and narrative rejection of the ending concept) I guess I just can't accept handwaived crap, space magic, and narrative and thematic discontinuity as well you can.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 22 juin 2013 - 04:30 .

[xlegionx]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

xlegionx wrote...

 @HYR 2.0:
While the word is more commonly used in context to sexual abuse, here is the entry on rape from dictionary.com:

"rape1   [reyp]  Show IPA noun, verb, raped, rap·ing.noun1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.3. statutory rape.4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.5. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.verb (used with object)6. to force to have sexual intercourse.7. to plunder (a place); despoil.8. to seize, take, or carry off by force."

So as you can see, the use of the word is not restricted to non-consenual sexual intercourse. So the use of rape in this context is perfectly acceptable, as regardless of how benign the changes Synthesis are, they were still brought about through force without the consent of the people changed.

As for Seival, his use of the word "brainwash" was overreacting, and in fact his definition of brainwashing would classify Synthesis as brainwashing as well.

Definitions #4-8 don't even fit the description, either.

Sync is a process of change, not seizure/plunder. They are not synonymous terms.

And two can play that game... *looks up "brainwashing"*


brainwashing. [breyn-wosh-ing, -waw-shing] noun 1.a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs. 2.any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, especially one based on repetition or confusion: brainwashing by TV commercials. 3.an instance of subjecting or being subjected to such techniques: efforts to halt the brainwashing of captive audiences.

If Javik was repeatedly told by his Prothean compatriots that AI are bad, definition #1 would agree with it.

I'm stretching, ofc, but no more than you are.

Well definition #4 does work, as it includes "violation" as part of its definiton. which as I said before is what Synthesis does, no matter how benign or welcome the change ends up being.

And no to offend, but you're stretching a bit farther. That first definition states that it is a method, as in a step-by-step process to change someone's beliefs. with Javik that wasn't the case. He grew up in an environment where his firends, family, and entire civilization was being destroyed by AIs. He came to his hatred of synthetic life on his own

[teh DRUMPf!!]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yes.

Though in my opinion, Synthesis is worse than rape. I think it's worse than even genocide.

So, to you, Cerberus did worse than rape/kill Commander Shepard by virtue of Project Lazarus?

xlegionx wrote...

Well definition #4 does work, as it includes "violation" as part of its definiton. which as I said before is what Synthesis does, no matter how benign or welcome the change ends up being.

If benign changes constitute violation, then all change is violation. And rape. See how that works?

And no to offend, but you're stretching a bit farther. That first definition states that it is a method, as in a step-by-step process to change someone's beliefs. with Javik that wasn't the case. He grew up in an environment where his firends, family, and entire civilization was being destroyed by AIs. He came to his hatred of synthetic life on his own

Let's try a different example, then: "cosmic imperative." He was taught that by his society -- natural selection as the only force in the galaxy that mattered. Provided that whatever Javik's education was imbued him with that doctrine, and did not present the other (dissenting) side of the argument in an equal manner, then one can call him indoctrinated.

Those definitions qualify "any" method of indoctrination as brainwashing. Therefore, he is brainwashed.

This is all beside the point, though. The real problem here is connotation, not definition. You can argue for any word being the right description, by its definition, but what others will really take issue with the nuance that makes it different from other words. Again, there's a reason why folks don't go around calling all change or even all violations "rape."

Like, saying "you violated raped the team rules" would be just flat-out silly.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 22 juin 2013 - 05:00 .

[Redbelle]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yes.

Though in my opinion, Synthesis is worse than rape. I think it's worse than even genocide.

So, to you, Cerberus did worse than rape/kill Commander Shepard by virtue of Project Lazarus?

xlegionx wrote...

Well definition #4 does work, as it includes "violation" as part of its definiton. which as I said before is what Synthesis does, no matter how benign or welcome the change ends up being.

If benign changes constitute violation, then all change is violation. And rape. See how that works?

And no to offend, but you're stretching a bit farther. That first definition states that it is a method, as in a step-by-step process to change someone's beliefs. with Javik that wasn't the case. He grew up in an environment where his firends, family, and entire civilization was being destroyed by AIs. He came to his hatred of synthetic life on his own

Let's try a different example, then: "cosmic imperative." He was taught that by his society -- natural selection as the only force in the galaxy that mattered. Provided that whatever Javik's education was imbued him with that doctrine, and did not present the other (dissenting) side of the argument in an equal manner, then one can call him indoctrinated.

Those definitions qualify "any" method of indoctrination as brainwashing. Therefore, he is brainwashed.

This is all beside the point, though. The real problem here is connotation, not definition. You can argue for any word being the right description, by its definition, but what others will really take issue with the nuance that makes it different from other words. Again, there's a reason why folks don't go around calling all change or even all violations "rape."

Like, saying "you violated raped the team rules" would be just flat-out silly.

Tsk tsk Hyr. Your not being very understanding..... Didn't you have a go at the thread for others not being understanding? And here you are actively refusing to take anothers POV...... bad HYR! Very Bad!

And before we get into your logic train, can we take Project Lazurus and Synthesis and find the commonality that makes you think they are, depsite their differences, one and the same? Because your argument is a house of cards. And pulling the notion of synthesis being the same as reanimating the dead kinda devalues your points going forward.

The issue at the heart of rape, genocide and such is a simple one. The rights of the victim are ignored to the point that they are no longer able to function as a individual. Becoming, instead, an object of conviniance for the instigator. If someone does not wish to be synthesised, yet is synthesised regardless, that is a violation. The fact that it simply happens without their foreknowledge makes the violation worse in that they have to face the prospect that it was never within their control to prevent. So to be ignored as an individual, and to be helpless to enforce their own rights to live in a way they deem acceptable is to be violated.

These are not bluesky concepts. They are recuring themes that strike right to the core of the victim. And Synthesis ticks the boxes of these themes, as well as saving the galaxy.

Modifié par Redbelle, 22 juin 2013 - 07:25 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yes.

Though in my opinion, Synthesis is worse than rape. I think it's worse than even genocide.

So, to you, Cerberus did worse than rape/kill Commander Shepard by virtue of Project Lazarus?

========================================================================================

Let's try a different example, then: "cosmic imperative." He was taught that by his society -- natural selection as the only force in the galaxy that mattered. Provided that whatever Javik's education was imbued him with that doctrine, and did not present the other (dissenting) side of the argument in an equal manner, then one can call him indoctrinated.

Those definitions qualify "any" method of indoctrination as brainwashing. Therefore, he is brainwashed.

This is all beside the point, though. The real problem here is connotation, not definition. You can argue for any word being the right description, by its definition, but what others will really take issue with the nuance that makes it different from other words. Again, there's a reason why folks don't go around calling all change or even all violations "rape."

Like, saying "you violated raped the team rules" would be just flat-out silly.

No. If that's what you're implying, you'd be making a logical fallacy, the invalid conclusion: Because I define Synthesis as worse than genocide, I must view Project Lazarus as bad. They are two different events with two different outcomes and two different purposes with two distinctly different methods. Don't try to make similarities where there are none.

Perhaps Javik was taught that. I believe however that no Prothean directly taught that to him. I believe that it was more of an observance, something he was seeing as a distinct pattern to the universe. Sure it was the accepted belief in his cycle, but he's making it his outlook from perspective. That wouldn't necessarily encompass brainwashing. Unless any and all forms of learning and observation is that. But if you don't agree with it, they must be getting brainwashed, no? Or am I missing something?

You're trying to turn this into an argument of particular definition. You're saying that 'rape' is inappropriate for any and all uses with the word 'violation' outside of the sexual misconduct realm. That is not true. While not every kind of violation constitutes the use of 'rape', I believe that synthesis, on the scale of its changes at such high levels throughout, does constitute change that constitutes violation. I don't see benefits to synthesis. I have a theory of how it works exclusively to the Reaper's advantage based on what the Catalyst says and what EDI says. I can make it fit withing the context of synthesis as shown in game. Is it the only interpretation that fits? No. But using the synthesis that we're given in the game, we have a lot of leeway for the consequences, but almost none for the execution or scientific explanation. In which there is no valid one.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 22 juin 2013 - 02:44 .

[Seival]

N7recruit wrote...

Well in the Mass effect universe yeah, "Memory is identity". According to Javick and his Memory is in DNA & Life leaves behind traces mumbo jumbo then yeah, anyone with his sensory ability can read it. I assume the whole Destructive analysis that the Reapers employ when harvesting utilises something similar to this as they probably use a highly advanced version of the technique. (AKA Liquefying people Lol)

Although we all lack context of what it's like to be a Reaper which the narrative has always painted in a horrifying light, as "Corrupt", turning us against the very idea of it

It could be something somewhat interesting for the next games if they chose to explore it PROPERLY, But it just came off as poorly worded, ham fisted high minded Bull**** in this Trilogy that dose not belong in it.

As for a Synthesised setting for Mass effect whatever, I'd be reluctant in diving into it as I feel they kinda messed up the concept already. Hell I'm currently wondering how they could keep Mass Effect relevant in general without it going up it's own ass hole but time will tell.

Thanks for the food for thought Sevial, you put A LOT more thought into this than BioWare did

We don't actually know how much thoughts BioWare put into MEU. They could reserve the most interesting things for the upcoming stories.

[Reorte]

If you're having problems with the use of the word "rape" to describe Synthesis please suggest a better term for forcing something on someone at the most fundamental (and hence most invasive) level possible.

[Ravensword]

Keep using the word rape, and it's liable to get censored, lol.

[mass perfection]

Seival wrote...

N7recruit wrote...

Well in the Mass effect universe yeah, "Memory is identity". According to Javick and his Memory is in DNA & Life leaves behind traces mumbo jumbo then yeah, anyone with his sensory ability can read it. I assume the whole Destructive analysis that the Reapers employ when harvesting utilises something similar to this as they probably use a highly advanced version of the technique. (AKA Liquefying people Lol)

Although we all lack context of what it's like to be a Reaper which the narrative has always painted in a horrifying light, as "Corrupt", turning us against the very idea of it

It could be something somewhat interesting for the next games if they chose to explore it PROPERLY, But it just came off as poorly worded, ham fisted high minded Bull**** in this Trilogy that dose not belong in it.

As for a Synthesised setting for Mass effect whatever, I'd be reluctant in diving into it as I feel they kinda messed up the concept already. Hell I'm currently wondering how they could keep Mass Effect relevant in general without it going up it's own ass hole but time will tell.

Thanks for the food for thought Sevial, you put A LOT more thought into this than BioWare did

We don't actually know how much thoughts BioWare put into MEU. They could reserve the most interesting things for the upcoming stories.

After seeing the writing of ME3,I doubt that.

[N7recruit]

We don't actually know how much thoughts BioWare put into MEU. They could reserve the most interesting things for the upcoming stories.[/quote]

Yeah hopfuly, there is an excelent thread titled " On the Universality of the Creator-Created Conflict" by MyChemicalBromance that shows that Bio probably did put quite a bit of thought into their ending although the explination was terrible & sitll kinda is. 
+ you have to call upon a lot of outside material be it other fiction or things like the Fermi Paradox & the Kardashev scale to apply the necessary context to understand what they were going for. Even then I don't think it fit's as well as it should as it seems too "Big Picture" for this triliogy IMO. 

Anyway, I belive they COULD top this triliogy easily if they just let future games do there own thing without rehashing the Reapers or anything else from Shepards one ( + if they explained their ideas properly that would be great too:lol:). I just feel that Shep's triliogy had a lot wasted potential & that just Stings really bad .  Here's hoping the new one is superior in both narrative & Gameplay.

[Redbelle]

If you have an ace idea you don't reserve it. You bring it to the fore and develop it into something amazing.

The idea of reserving something is actually the practice of cutting section's that do not fit the narrative or unsettle the pace of the narrative.

MGS2 had a section in the tanker where the player had to run snake ahead of flooding water as it sank. This section was not reserved, but cut. It was deemed to boring as the only active mechanic was to keep moving at all times.

Plus, have you seen how many of the oringal BW staff who worked on ME1 and 2 left ME3? Whoever comes aboard to plan the next installment has to acclimitise to the franchise. Otherwise we could have ME4 as ME:Deception. A game wearing the kings clothes with a pauper hiding underneath them.

[N7recruit]

Redbelle wrote...

If you have an ace idea you don't reserve it. You bring it to the fore and develop it into something amazing.

The idea of reserving something is actually the practice of cutting section's that do not fit the narrative or unsettle the pace of the narrative.

MGS2 had a section in the tanker where the player had to run snake ahead of flooding water as it sank. This section was not reserved, but cut. It was deemed to boring as the only active mechanic was to keep moving at all times.

Plus, have you seen how many of the oringal BW staff who worked on ME1 and 2 left ME3? Whoever comes aboard to plan the next installment has to acclimitise to the franchise. Otherwise we could have ME4 as ME:Deception. A game wearing the kings clothes with a pauper hiding underneath them.

Keeping the convo with God Kid "High level"  was a very big mistake made by Hudson in my opinion, probably the biggest (Except God Kid himself, of course )
But with regards to the writers Chris L'etoile's departure sucked ball's, he was awesome (ME1 Ashley my Favourite Romance) & his idea's with regards to synthetic life & Reaper Construction are very cool. In Drew's case well... If we did get the Dark Energy plot or if he was the lead for ME3 I think he would be in Mac's unfortunate position as a target for Fan Rage.

Mac get's a really tough time IMO as all the stuff they had to tie up in ME3 must have been a HUGE undertaking & really difficult + fustrating with such a limited budget. I do think things could have been handled better of cource but I don't hold it against him as he is a really cool guy & a good writer.

Drew made mistake's as well (Namely ME2's Itro, main plot & Ending) but don't hold it against him either.
The Universe dose need a breath of fresh air & I do share concerns in where that may possibly lead, especially in RPG mechanics (Dialogue Wheel) but DAI will hopefuly set the record straight.
Sorry for rambling & De-railing the thread OP:lol: