926 réponses à ce sujet

[PerhapsDeadMaybeNot]

Someday, I'd like to go ONE week without meeting an insane idea. Just One Week...

[.50CalBrainSurgeon]

Let us assume then that if we are "information," that information is contained in our brains. The brain and our memories/thoughts are maintained by the connection of neurons within. Long term memories are "built" into clusters of neurons in one's brains. Now, it appears to me that the Reapers enjoy breaking, hacking, and burning our organic body parts, in short destroying them. The trauma or heat damage from Reaper weapons no doubt cause cellular damage to the clusters of neurons and destroy the memories/thought processes contained within. Even when they harvest the corpses, the neural connections that form our "being/memory/thought" have been destroyed by either physical destruction or cellular degradation that occurs after death. (No oxygen to brain causes cells to die. Pretty basic biology). The only way to collect the being of a harvested victim would be to keep his/her brain's neural connections intact and thus the memories/being intact. However, the Reapers employ little robots that dissolve a body into a smoothie of basic organic compounds and constituents. In ME2, Dr. Chakwas noted that the Collectors dissolved humans into a liquid mixture of organic compounds, and we discovered that it was used to make a new Reaper. Because the Reapers take organic beings and grind them up into organic molecules, I do not believe they are scientifically capable (in the ME universe), of preserving "memory/information" of an individual. The neurons are gone and so are the memories contained in the once interconnected neurons. Given the circumstances, the Reapers are therefore NOT a collective made up of individual memory/being. Besides, even if they preserved the unique memories/thought process of the individual, every individual has different take on life, the universe, everything that in this case would give the Reaper a very bad case of indecision about what to do with us pesky organics.

Since the Reapers seem to all unanimously agree on a genocide orgy every 50k years, the individuality of the "essence of life" contained within as alleged by Seival really does not exist. DNA is just a blueprint for an organic being, but it does NOT determine what his memory/thought/being will become. You can have two clones, who are completely different people even though their bodies made of the same "genetic" material. However, their memories/thought processes/self-identity is made by the external factors of their life experience. That experience is stored as memory within their neurons and their neural connections will be different. Since the act of harvesting destroys these neural connections, they're "being" is not really stored. The individual being that is defined by the unique connections in his/her neurons has been long destroyed by the Reapers. Not to mention, they didn't even ask "please can we turn you and your species into an organic slushie to preserve you?" I apologize in advance to Grand Admiral Cheesecake, but I must decline on the offer of Reaper smoothies.

Basically: A cow is an animal with DNA like me. The cow's muscle has protein, built from its DNA blueprint. I kill the cow. I chop it up into steak. I eat the steak for protein to build up muscle. Is the cow part of my collective memory/being? I think not.

[Slayer299]

PerhapsDeadMaybeNot wrote...

Someday, I'd like to go ONE week without meeting an insane idea. Just One Week...

Good luck with that here... 

[PerhapsDeadMaybeNot]

Mr. BrainSurgeon...well said, Bravo!....couldnt have said better myself......but do we have any idea what this "essence of a species" really is? could we accurately say what it is? or is this simply an idea of fiction? it seems to imply something beyond simple dna...and anything beyond that is something you cannot study....or "harvest".

[Enhanced]

.50CalBrainSurgeon wrote...

Let us assume then that if we are "information," that information is contained in our brains. The brain and our memories/thoughts are maintained by the connection of neurons within. Long term memories are "built" into clusters of neurons in one's brains. Now, it appears to me that the Reapers enjoy breaking, hacking, and burning our organic body parts, in short destroying them. The trauma or heat damage from Reaper weapons no doubt cause cellular damage to the clusters of neurons and destroy the memories/thought processes contained within. Even when they harvest the corpses, the neural connections that form our "being/memory/thought" have been destroyed by either physical destruction or cellular degradation that occurs after death. (No oxygen to brain causes cells to die. Pretty basic biology). The only way to collect the being of a harvested victim would be to keep his/her brain's neural connections intact and thus the memories/being intact. However, the Reapers employ little robots that dissolve a body into a smoothie of basic organic compounds and constituents. In ME2, Dr. Chakwas noted that the Collectors dissolved humans into a liquid mixture of organic compounds, and we discovered that it was used to make a new Reaper. Because the Reapers take organic beings and grind them up into organic molecules, I do not believe they are scientifically capable (in the ME universe), of preserving "memory/information" of an individual. The neurons are gone and so are the memories contained in the once interconnected neurons. Given the circumstances, the Reapers are therefore NOT a collective made up of individual memory/being. Besides, even if they preserved the unique memories/thought process of the individual, every individual has different take on life, the universe, everything that in this case would give the Reaper a very bad case of indecision about what to do with us pesky organics.

Since the Reapers seem to all unanimously agree on a genocide orgy every 50k years, the individuality of the "essence of life" contained within as alleged by Seival really does not exist. DNA is just a blueprint for an organic being, but it does NOT determine what his memory/thought/being will become. You can have two clones, who are completely different people even though their bodies made of the same "genetic" material. However, their memories/thought processes/self-identity is made by the external factors of their life experience. That experience is stored as memory within their neurons and their neural connections will be different. Since the act of harvesting destroys these neural connections, they're "being" is not really stored. The individual being that is defined by the unique connections in his/her neurons has been long destroyed by the Reapers. Not to mention, they didn't even ask "please can we turn you and your species into an organic slushie to preserve you?" I apologize in advance to Grand Admiral Cheesecake, but I must decline on the offer of Reaper smoothies.

Basically: A cow is an animal with DNA like me. The cow's muscle has protein, built from its DNA blueprint. I kill the cow. I chop it up into steak. I eat the steak for protein to build up muscle. Is the cow part of my collective memory/being? I think not.

Sorry, but this is mostly headcanon.  It doesn't matter what we think is possible or impossible in real life. Memory within DNA is fact in the game. And, the Reapers do contain billions of minds of organics.

Modifié par Enhanced, 16 juillet 2013 - 02:20 .

[.50CalBrainSurgeon]

Enhanced wrote...


Sorry, but this is mostly headcanon.  It doesn't matter what we think is possible or impossible in real life. Memory within DNA is fact in the game. And, the Reapers do contain billions of minds of organics.

Basic biology isn't headcanon. As much as it stretches actualy scientific phenomenon, the ME universe is STILL bound to some degree by certain biological and physical phenomenon. If memory in DNA had been established from day one (like the Assassins Creed series) sure I could buy it, but this is conjecture. Besides, even IF the Reapers contain millions of organic minds, why is there no disagreement amongst these billions of minds? Or have these "billions of minds" all been indoctrinated into one diabolica hive mind controlled by the equally diabloical starbrat? 

[.50CalBrainSurgeon]

PerhapsDeadMaybeNot wrote...

Mr. BrainSurgeon...well said, Bravo!....couldnt have said better myself......but do we have any idea what this "essence of a species" really is? could we accurately say what it is? or is this simply an idea of fiction? it seems to imply something beyond simple dna...and anything beyond that is something you cannot study....or "harvest".

Thank you good sir! Would you be refering to a soul? This would be delving into the realm of religion/philosophy and metaphysics,  beyond conventional science. Were the ME universe like the Star Wars universe in that it contained an omnipresent "Force" or an infintiely powerful creator then sure there would be much debate about the "essence of the species/individual," but I believe that the ME universe when initially written triedto avoid this deep a level of metaphysicality. Unfortunately, the injection of the starbrat Deus Ex Machina at the end seems to have changed all that for the worse. 

[Enhanced]

.50CalBrainSurgeon wrote...

Enhanced wrote...


Sorry, but this is mostly headcanon.  It doesn't matter what we think is possible or impossible in real life. Memory within DNA is fact in the game. And, the Reapers do contain billions of minds of organics.

Basic biology isn't headcanon. As much as it stretches actualy scientific phenomenon, the ME universe is STILL bound to some degree by certain biological and physical phenomenon. If memory in DNA had been established from day one (like the Assassins Creed series) sure I could buy it, but this is conjecture. Besides, even IF the Reapers contain millions of organic minds, why is there no disagreement amongst these billions of minds? Or have these "billions of minds" all been indoctrinated into one diabolica hive mind controlled by the equally diabloical starbrat? 

It's only as bound to real life biology as the writers want it to be. There's nothing wrong with that info being revealed at the end of ME2. Some details about The Reapers were still intended to be a mystery. No one knows exactly how the minds inside the Reapers work. I agree, they are all being controlled by the Catalyst.

Modifié par Enhanced, 16 juillet 2013 - 05:46 .

[Reorte]

Enhanced wrote...

It's only as bound to real life biology as the writers want it to be. There's nothing wrong with that info being revealed at the end of ME2. Some details about The Reapers were still intended to be a mystery. No one knows exactly how the minds inside the Reapers work. I agree, they are all being controlled by the Catalyst.

When it runs head first into fact and common sense then there's a lot wrong with it. A writer who makes up nonsense as he feels like and claims "It's true in my universe" is an awful writer, plain and simple. You can get away with some things when setting up the universe in the first place, mostly if there's no way around necessary things for the setting otherwise (e.g. some form of FTL travel) but that's as far as it goes. Please don't completely turn off your bull**** filter for every work of fiction.

[KaiserShep]

The idea that an actual mind can be stored in the reapers falls apart as a viable concept after watching that colonist be reduced into a puddle while screaming in agony. Right then and there I'd believe that there is indeed a hell, and the reapers manufactured it. I'd certainly hope for their sake that these "minds" are not actually a collection of actual conscious beings, but rather extracted memories that are inert, because if they are, being euthanized would be doing them a cosmic favor. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 16 juillet 2013 - 07:38 .

[.50CalBrainSurgeon]

Reorte wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

It's only as bound to real life biology as the writers want it to be. There's nothing wrong with that info being revealed at the end of ME2. Some details about The Reapers were still intended to be a mystery. No one knows exactly how the minds inside the Reapers work. I agree, they are all being controlled by the Catalyst.

When it runs head first into fact and common sense then there's a lot wrong with it. A writer who makes up nonsense as he feels like and claims "It's true in my universe" is an awful writer, plain and simple. You can get away with some things when setting up the universe in the first place, mostly if there's no way around necessary things for the setting otherwise (e.g. some form of FTL travel) but that's as far as it goes. Please don't completely turn off your bull**** filter for every work of fiction.

Well said. When writing fiction, a writer must realize that his readers or viewers can only suspend their disbelief to certain degrees depending upon how "real" the content of his writing is. If he initially establishes a universe where magic/fantasy/highly improbable things exist, the readers will generally suspend their disbelief much more. If one looks at the Star Wars Universe, viewers and readers accept the presence of the Force because it was established as existing from the getgo. Thus, readers can suspend their disbelief to the degree that the Force gives certain individuals powers like telekenisis, visions, or even lightning from the fingers. The nature of the force is a mystery to readers, but it is generally accepted because its existence established more or less HOW FAR the reader will suspend his disbelief. 
In contrast to the Star Wars universe, the ME universe remains much more grounded in terms of science, a "talk and tech" type universe kinda like Star Trek. Because the ME universe remains relies more on "real world" scientific fact and phenomenon, the gamer's suspension of disbelief in this case is much lower. Yes, the existence of biotics, indoctrination, and Project Lazarus do stretch real world science, but not so far that the gamer will no longer suspend his/her disbelief. In other words, these fictional things/entities are accepted by the gamer because they remain somewhat bound by actual science in the context of the ME universe. 
Now, when the writers/Reaper sympathizers assert that DNA carries memory/being without having first PRIOR established this phenomenon is possible in the fictional universe, most people will no longer suspend their disbelief. Poor fiction writing happens when the writer has created a "world" with a certain level of suspension of disbelif, and then drastically raise that level to the point where the reader, (using the common sense based on the contents of the ME universe) decides that the writing is no longer credible. The whole Catalyst/starbrat/space magic ending is such an example that so drastically alters the "somewhat scientifically grounded" tenets of the  ME universe. As a result, some gamers do not see the space magic or Reapers keeping "individual beings" as "common sense" or "credible" within the semi-scientific scope of the Mass Effect realm. Even in the context of the ME universe, "common sense" tells us that riping organics sapients to chemicals does NOT preserve being. The writiers attempting to sell this idea in the last twenty minutes is an example of craptacular writing without much forethought. Oh and Deus Ex Machina, another tool of poor writing-But that's another topic for another day. 

[Nightwriter]

KaiserShep wrote...

The idea that an actual mind can be stored in the reapers falls apart as a viable concept after watching that colonist be reduced into a puddle while screaming in agony. Right then and there I'd believe that there is indeed a hell, and the reapers manufactured it. I'd certainly hope for their sake that these "minds" are not actually a collection of actual conscious beings, but rather extracted memories that are inert, because if they are, being euthanized would be doing them a cosmic favor. 

What physical form does a memory take? How can it be "read" and interpreted by another intelligence?

[adayaday]

Nightwriter wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

The idea that an actual mind can be stored in the reapers falls apart as a viable concept after watching that colonist be reduced into a puddle while screaming in agony. Right then and there I'd believe that there is indeed a hell, and the reapers manufactured it. I'd certainly hope for their sake that these "minds" are not actually a collection of actual conscious beings, but rather extracted memories that are inert, because if they are, being euthanized would be doing them a cosmic favor. 

What physical form does a memory take? How can it be "read" and interpreted by another intelligence?

Pictures?Collector finger painting maybe?

[Nightwriter]

I don't think Collectors can finger paint anymore than they can sing karaoke.

So basically what I am saying is they can finger paint like a f*cking boss. Da Vinci would weep with envy.

[KaiserShep]

I wonder if paint can be produced from melted humans.

[Asharad Hett]

KaiserShep wrote...

I wonder if paint can be produced from melted humans.

 That is a beautiful thought.  Almost as beautiful as eating a cow to absorb its memory.  But Big Mac memories trump your melted human paint.

Modifié par Asharad Hett, 17 juillet 2013 - 05:14 .

[Asharad Hett]

Enhanced wrote...
 Memory within DNA is fact in the game. And, the Reapers do contain billions of minds of organics.

So everything Shepard has eaten and pooped has memories stored in it?

[Enhanced]

Yes. Maybe Shepard could convince Javik to recall the cow's memories for him.

Modifié par Enhanced, 17 juillet 2013 - 02:00 .

[AnsinJung]

The quarks are coming.

[Ravensword]

KaiserShep wrote...

I wonder if paint can be produced from melted humans.

I don't see why not.

[rekn2]

who cares if memories are preserved....why would a reaper go into BATTLE if its job is to PRESERVE something. they all know they can die, look at Sov.

some preservation

[Teddie Sage]

I found another good reason why to choose Destroy: letting older races die in dignity rather than being recycled as Reapers. Finally they can rest in peace and their genes won't be used to do evil. Control and Synthesis is basically recycling them again and again. Spiritually speaking, I think that destroying them is freeing them from their curse of eternity.

[Bizantura]

Seival wrote...

Jukaga wrote...

What is this, your 100th thread saying the same thing? I buy into the 'genetic memory' theme in ME, because we have to accept other impossible premises like the whole Mass Effect technology to enjoy the story and universe but I hope you know that no reputable scientist supports the 'gene memory' theory. I'm sorry but it is impossible for memories to be stored in DNA or RNA.

But let's put that aside, in MEU it clearly does exist. To claim that having your biological matter rendered down to a state that can be indefinitely stored and accessed is not death is frankly wrong. Those harvested people are not alive, only a record of their existence is preserved.

When Javik reads residue on the Normandy, he is seeing echoes and impressions of those people not actually communicating with them. The harvested beings in a reaper shell are dead, full stop. Their information is still accessible but not as distinct sentient beings, they are gone.

But as the Reapers are clearly a distinct hybrid organic/synthetic life form you are correct in branding the killing of reapers genocide, but it is entirely justifiable genocide and one that I suspect the vast majority of dead harvested beings would thank you for if they were able to.

In my ethics there is no such thing as "justifiable genocide".

In your "ethics" there is no little thing like "free will" either.  For me being allways a free willed individual is paramount, being a carbon copy drone with or without tech implanted, is not.  Do not care to follow suit with fashion cloth or social fad wise delivered by the majority.

[guacamayus]

Seival wrote...

"If the essence of life is information carried in DNA, then society and civilization are just colossal memory systems and a metropolis like this one, simply a sprawling external memory."

This idea from the GITS: Innocence... it's genius. And recently I imagined - what if the Catalyst would say something like that?...

...Well, actually it said something like that, but differently. A Reaper is not just a harvester made of harvested lives. It is also a storage of colossal memory systems. Contained essence of life... in other words - preserved life. This means the Catalyst preserved life in each Cycle in two ways: made sure the new life will flourish, and the harvested lives were not wasted.

To be harvested by the Reapers is not to be killed.
The essence of Harvested people is still alive, preserved in the Reaper form.
Killing a Reaper is a crime. Crime equal to the genocide. And total disrespect of the ones who came before us.

The reapers are giant containers of collective memories, knowledge, physical data connected a processor, or the reaper brain. This data defines the reaper's personality.
However this doesn't mean that every harvested individual is in there, those minds stopped all activity when they died. Whatever emerged from all that data is a different entity, something which was created artificially by using a horrible process that only a “program” would consider it preserving life.

I agree on one thing though, killing the reapers is genocide because of numerous reasons, one of them being the fact that killing the reapers means every other synthetic life form has to die aswell. Victory at the expense of another race, to me that's a disgusting idea.

Another important thing to remember is the intelligence, I don't fully understand the degree of control it has over the reapers but it is clear that the purpose of the intelligence is the purpose of the reapers. Otherwise they would've left dark space and build a civilization of their own, in other words, without the intelligence they would rebel in order to persue their own goals.

Is it justified to kill an entire race who had no involvement in their own creation? Their crimes were motivated by the presence of the intelligence, should they be exterminated because of this ancient program's decisions?

It's easy to judge them as any other organic race but the truth is they were created; doesn't matter how horrible the process was, they didn't decide to be built; they are alive and under the direction of some ancient program. In a way it kind of remains me of the Rachni queen in Mass Effect 1, their actions were motivated by the intelligence, but now they have a chance to be free... a tough choice given the risks and the alternative.

Modifié par guacamayus, 29 juillet 2013 - 02:17 .

[Taboo]

OP:

-> Claims we shouldn't use human ethics to judge the Reapers.

-> Uses Human Ethics to judge people on how they deal with the Reapers.

This site is going to straight up kill me some day.