926 réponses à ce sujet

[Tron Mega]

Seival wrote...

Jukaga wrote...

What is this, your 100th thread saying the same thing? I buy into the 'genetic memory' theme in ME, because we have to accept other impossible premises like the whole Mass Effect technology to enjoy the story and universe but I hope you know that no reputable scientist supports the 'gene memory' theory. I'm sorry but it is impossible for memories to be stored in DNA or RNA.

But let's put that aside, in MEU it clearly does exist. To claim that having your biological matter rendered down to a state that can be indefinitely stored and accessed is not death is frankly wrong. Those harvested people are not alive, only a record of their existence is preserved.

When Javik reads residue on the Normandy, he is seeing echoes and impressions of those people not actually communicating with them. The harvested beings in a reaper shell are dead, full stop. Their information is still accessible but not as distinct sentient beings, they are gone.

But as the Reapers are clearly a distinct hybrid organic/synthetic life form you are correct in branding the killing of reapers genocide, but it is entirely justifiable genocide and one that I suspect the vast majority of dead harvested beings would thank you for if they were able to.

In my ethics there is no such thing as "justifiable genocide".

but you agree with everything else, yes?

[AresKeith]

StreetMagic wrote...

The Reapers aren't evil. Or good. You're ascribing organic motivations to them. Like I said, they're just cosmic janitors. You can choose to evolve them or embue them with Sheperd's morals. Destroying them is a missed opportunity however.

That's like your opinion, because we don't need them. But we do use their corpses for tech

[N7recruit]

Well OP for me there is some crucial information we are missing "What it Means to be a Reaper"
Is it heaven, hell, what if anything is left of the harvested apart from some data/genetic info, are the minds corrupted during the destructive analysis or do they just perceive things in a way we couldn't hope to understand?

I personally view them as just synthetic Constructs that double as data bases of Organic Genetic information, they don't "live", they don't respond to stimuli in the same way we do, they don't have the capacity for it, they just remain in stasis in dark space then Commence the Harvest on the whim of the Catalyst. What kind of Existence is that?

As for the whole "preservation" thing, dead is dead IMO. If I had a back up of my all my memories, then someone Shot me in the head & Cloned me I'd still be dead. There is just someone else running around with my thoughts is their head

Just Curious but do you not find it tragic what the Catalyst has done to them? I mean it robbed them of their future & its trying to do the same to us all for the sake of Preservation while committing inconceivable atrocities for the past Billion or so years over and over and over to people who cant even defend themselves or fight back.

I appreciate different view points & the speculation which is cool but I'm just wondering how someone can be in anyway apologetic towards them considering all the pain they have caused

[masster blaster]

StreetMagic wrote...

The Reapers aren't evil. Or good. You're ascribing organic motivations to them. Like I said, they're just cosmic janitors. You can choose to evolve them or embue them with Sheperd's morals. Destroying them is a missed opportunity however.

Your Shepard is just like the catalyst then. Using the Reapers to "help" the galaxy when in truth it doesn't need them. Comanding the dead husk..... playing god in a sense.  Also I believe Paragon Control Shepard will subcome to logic, instead of emotions which made Shepard who he/she was. I mean Paragon Shepard is using theReapers/ the husk as a police force. Basically declaring marshal law. The catalyst use the Reapers to harvest the organics, that never "learnd" what caused the problem between organics, and synthetics. The catalyst always had to screw it up. Shepard may very well do the same imo. good or not.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 juin 2013 - 12:22 .

[IceHawk-181]

Destroy makes absolutely no sense.

In order for a destroy ending to make sense one would have to argue that the Catalyst is not an all-powerful and nigh-infallible force of altruistic intent and galactic balance, that the mastermind of a billion years of successive galactic genocides does not have the best interests of all life everywhere in mind when it makes decisions, that the inevitability of organic extinction at the hands of synthetic life (non-Reaper of course) is a universal truth and that EDI and the Geth-Quarian Peace are merely diversions from a predetermined path, and that Shepard would be willing to sacrifice a close friend (EDI) and an entire race of sentients he literally just saved in order to preserve the rest of the galaxy.

I mean, who could possibly believe any of that and not be insane?

Now let's get back to discussions of how liquefaction into genetic material is a gateway into a new and kinder form of life!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Arrogant, boastful, and completely full of nonsense as always Seival.

[masster blaster]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Destroy makes absolutely no sense.

In order for a destroy ending to make sense one would have to argue that the Catalyst is not an all-powerful and nigh-infallible force of altruistic intent and galactic balance, that the mastermind of a billion years of successive galactic genocides does not have the best interests of all life everywhere in mind when it makes decisions, that the inevitability of organic extinction at the hands of synthetic life (non-Reaper of course) is a universal truth and that EDI and the Geth-Quarian Peace are merely diversions from a predetermined path, and that Shepard would be willing to sacrifice a close friend (EDI) and an entire race of sentients he literally just saved in order to preserve the rest of the galaxy.

I mean, who could possibly believe any of that and not be insane?

Now let's get back to discussions of how liquefaction into genetic material is a gateway into a new and kinder form of life!

Destroy makes the most sense out of all the ednigs. Refuse....is useless. Synthesis is uneeded because the galaxy shouldn't need an overwrite to have peace. Control...you replaced another dicator with another. Destroy... galaxy either restarts the cycle, or not.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

masster blaster wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Destroy makes absolutely no sense.

In order for a destroy ending to make sense one would have to argue that the Catalyst is not an all-powerful and nigh-infallible force of altruistic intent and galactic balance, that the mastermind of a billion years of successive galactic genocides does not have the best interests of all life everywhere in mind when it makes decisions, that the inevitability of organic extinction at the hands of synthetic life (non-Reaper of course) is a universal truth and that EDI and the Geth-Quarian Peace are merely diversions from a predetermined path, and that Shepard would be willing to sacrifice a close friend (EDI) and an entire race of sentients he literally just saved in order to preserve the rest of the galaxy.

I mean, who could possibly believe any of that and not be insane?

Now let's get back to discussions of how liquefaction into genetic material is a gateway into a new and kinder form of life!

Destroy makes the most sense out of all the ednigs. Refuse....is useless. Synthesis is uneeded because the galaxy shouldn't need an overwrite to have peace. Control...you replaced another dicator with another. Destroy... galaxy either restarts the cycle, or not.

You missed the sarcasm in his post.

[IceHawk-181]

Funny, in my playthrough the galaxy, synthetic and organic alike, are not fighting each other...

..there was something more pressing that seemed to create common cause and alleviate all other concerns...

[AresKeith]

StreetMagic wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The
Reapers aren't evil. Or good. You're ascribing organic motivations to
them. Like I said, they're just cosmic janitors. You can choose to
evolve them or embue them with Sheperd's morals. Destroying them is a missed opportunity however.

Your
Shepard is just like the catalyst then. Using the Reapers to "help" the
galaxy when in truth it doesn't need them. Comanding the dead husk.....
playing god in a sense.  Also I believe Paragon Control Shepard will
subcome to logic, instead of emotions which made Shepard who he/she was.
I mean Paragon Shepard is using theReapers/ the husk as a police force.
Basically declaring marshal law. The catalyst use the Reapers to
harvest the organics, that never "learnd" what caused the problem
between organics, and synthetics. The catalyst always had to screw it
up. Shepard may very well do the same imo. good or not.

Sure, yeah. Shepherd basically plays god.

But nothing new there. It's been happening since the series started, I think. Only now it'd be official. Fits the name somehow. Sheperd -- leading the sheep.

You would be better than Catalyst at Control, simply because your mortal/organic experiences. Catalyst as intelligent as he is still deals with raw numbers and calculated thinking. Shep is guided by slightly different impulses (at least sometimes). You'd also be better than Illusive Man, possibly. That is, if you're not in it simply for the power or uplifting one race specifically.

And if you don't want that, Synthesis is better. People stop having a reason to fight altogether. They might find new reasons to fight, but at least that one galactic problem is solved.

AI's wasn't a galactic problem to begin with

[masster blaster]

StreetMagic wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The
Reapers aren't evil. Or good. You're ascribing organic motivations to
them. Like I said, they're just cosmic janitors. You can choose to
evolve them or embue them with Sheperd's morals. Destroying them is a missed opportunity however.

Your
Shepard is just like the catalyst then. Using the Reapers to "help" the
galaxy when in truth it doesn't need them. Comanding the dead husk.....
playing god in a sense.  Also I believe Paragon Control Shepard will
subcome to logic, instead of emotions which made Shepard who he/she was.
I mean Paragon Shepard is using theReapers/ the husk as a police force.
Basically declaring marshal law. The catalyst use the Reapers to
harvest the organics, that never "learnd" what caused the problem
between organics, and synthetics. The catalyst always had to screw it
up. Shepard may very well do the same imo. good or not.

Sure, yeah. Shepherd basically plays god.

But nothing new there. It's been happening since the series started, I think. Only now it'd be official. Fis the name somehow. Sheperd -- leading the sheep.

It's not the ideal solution though. It's just better than destroy, I think. Depends on how much you trust your Shep. This is as far as the Catalyst got, but he thinks there's a better way. You would be better than Catalyst at Control, simply because your mortal/organic experiences. Catalyst as intelligent as he is still deals with raw numbers and calculated thinking. Shep is guided by slightly different impulses (at least sometimes). And if you don't want that, Synthesis is better. People stop having a reason to fight altogether. They might find new reasons to fight, but at least that one galactic problem is solved.

With all do respect it's not.

Synthesis is the worst. It's everything we fought against. It's a failed reason to have everyone subjigated to have "peace' It's B.S. everyone is not themselfs. Javik, Hackett, Weav, the Korgans,, hell the whole galaxy is........ not themselfs. It's like the Geth heratics you can erase their  personalitys, but you killed them on the inside.  Shepard as renegade is power hungry. Paragon SHepard is a control freak that is using Reapers/ the dead as a police force.

The catalyst wanted synthesis not the galaxy, nor the player at the time. I see no point in forceing synthesis on everyone, nor do I see any point in letting the Reapers live. Oh the knowlegde they can show us....ya......knowledge also leads to bad things, and to be far the Reapers mistakes to begin with, and the organics in ther have no right to be trapped inside it. Your basically using the Reapers for the galaxy's gain. That's not right.

[masster blaster]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Funny, in my playthrough the galaxy, synthetic and organic alike, are not fighting each other...

..there was something more pressing that seemed to create common cause and alleviate all other concerns...

Ya and who's the one that caused this organic vs synthetics to continue????

The catalyst. Instead of "dealing with the problem" it just killed and harvested organics. it used synthetics to kill organics...goes against everything it stand for. So in truth in ME3 we finally understand why organics, and synthetics fight one another, and the galaxy works together to bring the Reapers down. Didn't need synthesis to have peace.

[AresKeith]

StreetMagic wrote...

No, I mean how people cope with AI... and how AI respond to being relegated as tools. That's the problem. Not AI itself. Both need to evolve to see the others point of view. Carrying on as it is will just bring more war, I think. I think the Catalyst is right on that.

Which the Rannoch arc shows without the Reapers killing everyone if you chose to make peace

[masster blaster]

StreetMagic wrote...

I can't say I really care what Javik thinks. Or Wreav. They're lucky that I even choose Synthesis and that they have a place in my game world. lol. I could easily choose Control and be a menace to Wreav and anyone like him. An unapologetic dictator. Someone worse than Wreav.

YEt what about the galaxy? hmmmmmm wreav should be leading the korgan into battle against the galaxy. javik would never befriend the Reapers, nor life in peace with them. Nor Ash. Nor Garrus, nor anyone of your squad members. EDI finds the Reaper repulsive... i call BS that in synthesis she is okay. Ya she just realized it's not their fault, as did the whole galaxy... ya I don't by it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Okay, I've been reading your posts for a bit now, and all I have to say is that it's full of conjecture and headcanon. Do you really think you know the long term implications of Control? You said a few posts ago how the Reapers exist outside organic morals, yet now you're saying that the Shepalyst is going to be dictated by his organic experiences.

The Catalyst itself mentions that you lose your connection to your species. It is raw numbers and calculated thinking that Shepard becomes. And if that happens, then what happens when his organic experience becomes divorced 
from the mindset of newer organics? What happens when it becomes irrelevant? You're not given any clear indication of how Shepard's new ethics or mindset exist anymore.


Here are a few synthesis statements.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 07 juin 2013 - 12:54 .

[IceHawk-181]

This is actually the foundation of a theory I have about the Catalyst.

An AI functioning on logic would notice that Shepard's cycle has produced a cross-Organic/Synthetic alliance which ipso facto was the original purpose of its creation, to manage a peaceful coexistence.

Logic would dictate that the Reapers withdraw and allow the alliance to remain, while staying as a useful threat to maintain the stimuli that lead to the alliance in the first place.

Only an irrational mind would look upon the alliance of Organic/Synthetic life and decide, hey, let me smash that so my merciless machines can continue their 50,000 year experiments in inventing new people-blenders....

[AresKeith]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

This is actually the foundation of a theory I have about the Catalyst.

An AI functioning on logic would notice that Shepard's cycle has produced a cross-Organic/Synthetic alliance which ipso facto was the original purpose of its creation, to manage a peaceful coexistence.

Logic would dictate that the Reapers withdraw and allow the alliance to remain, while staying as a useful threat to maintain the stimuli that lead to the alliance in the first place.

Only an irrational mind would look upon the alliance of Organic/Synthetic life and decide, hey, let me smash that so my merciless machines can continue their 50,000 year experiments in inventing new people-blenders....

It still pisses me off that we can't use the fact that we made peace and an alliance with the Geth that shows we can work together with Synthetics in our one-sided conversation with the Starbrat

Modifié par AresKeith, 07 juin 2013 - 12:39 .

[masster blaster]

Have you watched the Control ending? It's shaped by Shepherd's Paragon and Renegade rating. It's not my "headcanon" when I say it's shaped by Shep's morals. That's exactly what happens in the ending.



Ummmmm that's not Shepard anymore, but a copy....... it is using logic rather than morals....... if Shepard use his/her morals, he/she would send the Reapers to the sun.

[masster blaster]

AresKeith wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

This is actually the foundation of a theory I have about the Catalyst.

An AI functioning on logic would notice that Shepard's cycle has produced a cross-Organic/Synthetic alliance which ipso facto was the original purpose of its creation, to manage a peaceful coexistence.

Logic would dictate that the Reapers withdraw and allow the alliance to remain, while staying as a useful threat to maintain the stimuli that lead to the alliance in the first place.

Only an irrational mind would look upon the alliance of Organic/Synthetic life and decide, hey, let me smash that so my merciless machines can continue their 50,000 year experiments in inventing new people-blenders....

It still pisses me off that we can't use the fact that we made peace and an alliance with the Geth that shows we can work together with Synthetics in our one-sided conversation with the Starbrat

Starbrat= Troll.