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"If the essence of life is information carried in DNA, then society and civilization are just colossal memory systems and a metropolis like this one, simply a sprawling external memory."


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#151
masster blaster

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Ravensword wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Bah. Well, you guys are making me entertain the whole indoctrination theory stuff now. lol.

The only thing that makes me think Destroy is a good option is how much it costs to get out alive. It rewards players who put a lot of time in the game. Synthesis comes in a distant second.


I'm an ITer you know who beleves in Indoc theory, so I take that as a complement.

Yet there are many reasons why many fans pick Destroy.


IT is dead.


Please let's not go there. I already said enough said.

Hmmm I should go back to the IT site if this starts up an argument.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 juin 2013 - 01:04 .


#152
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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masster blaster wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Bah. Well, you guys are making me entertain the whole indoctrination theory stuff now. lol.

The only thing that makes me think Destroy is a good option is how much it costs to get out alive. It rewards players who put a lot of time in the game. Synthesis comes in a distant second.


Well, that's not the only reason, but why do you think Destroy happens to be the most popular choice among the harder fans? Synthesis is after Control btw.


It doesn't have anything to do with Synthesis itself. It's just that it has highest requirements after the ideal Destroy ending. Control is one of the easier paths to follow.
I thought Synthesis needed the second highest War Asset requirements. Control can easily be achieved by saving the Collector base in ME2. You don't even need many war assets to do it.. although not doing so causes a ton of damage.


And what does that have to do with synthesis? If you want to get technical Destroy is the same way, and to unlock the best ending for Destroy, is that much high than synthesis.


It doesn't have anything to do with Synthesis itself. I'm just saying it comes in second as far as requirements go. Control is one of the easier paths to follow.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 07 juin 2013 - 01:05 .


#153
Auld Wulf

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huntrrz wrote...

Without being able to have an impact on the universe, the preserved memories of a culture are irrelevant. They effectively no longer exist.

This shows how incredibly limited the understand of some is. See, some people used to think the world was flat. It's an old dream to "recreate the Universe in one's image," but that discounts everyone else in the Universe. Which leads to either subjugating or destroying other species, as the Catalyst points out. Us humans already have a history of that, how bad do you think it's going to be when we're in space?

By trying to imprint physicality we remove the ability for others to do the same, but keeping our imprinting to ethereal things, we can express ourselves without limiting others from doing the same. We can still create art, as we always have, and we can continue to grow and develop, but at the same time we wouldn't stop others from growing and developing. This is exactly the problem that the Catalyst solves.

You are a part of the problem due to your limited understanding, due to a limited world view and perspective. You want to impact upon the Universe but you don't realise the harm you would do by doing it. Your understanding is smaller, limited to this world, and present day. My understanding is much further reaching than that, and it takes into account other life and that the Universe doesn't exist just for us humans.

By existing in a virtual sense, we continue to have advancement, growth, and art. We continue to exist. And we don't stop others from existing. This is a wisdom that your children's children's children's children's children will understand. But you won't. It's disappointing, but that's the reality of today.

#154
masster blaster

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StreetMagic wrote...

 

masster blaster wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Bah. Well, you guys are making me entertain the whole indoctrination theory stuff now. lol.

The only thing that makes me think Destroy is a good option is how much it costs to get out alive. It rewards players who put a lot of time in the game. Synthesis comes in a distant second.


Well, that's not the only reason, but why do you think Destroy happens to be the most popular choice among the harder fans? Synthesis is after Control btw.


It doesn't have anything to do with Synthesis itself. It's just that it has highest requirements after the ideal Destroy ending. Control is one of the easier paths to follow.
I thought Synthesis needed the second highest War Asset requirements. Control can easily be achieved by saving the Collector base in ME2. You don't even need many war assets to do it.. although not doing so causes a ton of damage.


And what does that have to do with synthesis? If you want to get technical Destroy is the same way, and to unlock the best ending for Destroy, is that much high than synthesis.


It doesn't have anything to do with Synthesis itself.


Then why bring it up?


he, or she was talking about the most like.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 juin 2013 - 01:07 .


#155
AresKeith

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StreetMagic wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Bah. Well, you guys are making me entertain the whole indoctrination theory stuff now. lol.

The only thing that makes me think Destroy is a good option is how much it costs to get out alive. It rewards players who put a lot of time in the game. Synthesis comes in a distant second.


Well, that's not the only reason, but why do you think Destroy happens to be the most popular choice among the harder fans? Synthesis is after Control btw.


I thought Synthesis needed the second highest War Asset requirements. Control can easily be achieved by saving the Collector base in ME2. You don't even need many war assets to do it.. although not doing so causes a ton of damage.


He's talking about popularity, not War Assets

#156
MassivelyEffective0730

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StreetMagic wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Bah. Well, you guys are making me entertain the whole indoctrination theory stuff now. lol.

The only thing that makes me think Destroy is a good option is how much it costs to get out alive. It rewards players who put a lot of time in the game. Synthesis comes in a distant second.


Well, that's not the only reason, but why do you think Destroy happens to be the most popular choice among the harder fans? Synthesis is after Control btw.


I thought Synthesis needed the second highest War Asset requirements. Control can easily be achieved by saving the Collector base in ME2. You don't even need many war assets to do it.. although not doing so causes a ton of damage.


Ending choice has almost nothing to do with war assets. Which really sucks, since all the assets you get do dick once you get 3100.

Nobody chooses synthesis since it's the highest rated ending. 

I'd sooner Refuse than choose synthesis or control.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 07 juin 2013 - 01:08 .


#157
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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You guys lost me.

All I said originally is that I can see Destroy being rewarding if you had a ton of war assets. I merely mentioned that Synthesis comes in a distant second. I didn't mean anything by it. Lets move on. There isn't some deep point intended here. Sorry if you misunderstood.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 07 juin 2013 - 01:09 .


#158
masster blaster

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Bah. Well, you guys are making me entertain the whole indoctrination theory stuff now. lol.

The only thing that makes me think Destroy is a good option is how much it costs to get out alive. It rewards players who put a lot of time in the game. Synthesis comes in a distant second.


Well, that's not the only reason, but why do you think Destroy happens to be the most popular choice among the harder fans? Synthesis is after Control btw.


I thought Synthesis needed the second highest War Asset requirements. Control can easily be achieved by saving the Collector base in ME2. You don't even need many war assets to do it.. although not doing so causes a ton of damage.


Ending choice has almost nothing to do with war assets. Which really sucks really.


Nobody chooses synthesis since it's the highest rated ending. 

I'd sooner Refuse than choose synthesis or control.



I'm with you.

#159
IceHawk-181

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Auld Wulf wrote...

huntrrz wrote...

Without being able to have an impact on the universe, the preserved memories of a culture are irrelevant. They effectively no longer exist.

This shows how incredibly limited the understand of some is. See, some people used to think the world was flat. It's an old dream to "recreate the Universe in one's image," but that discounts everyone else in the Universe. Which leads to either subjugating or destroying other species, as the Catalyst points out. Us humans already have a history of that, how bad do you think it's going to be when we're in space?

By trying to imprint physicality we remove the ability for others to do the same, but keeping our imprinting to ethereal things, we can express ourselves without limiting others from doing the same. We can still create art, as we always have, and we can continue to grow and develop, but at the same time we wouldn't stop others from growing and developing. This is exactly the problem that the Catalyst solves.

You are a part of the problem due to your limited understanding, due to a limited world view and perspective. You want to impact upon the Universe but you don't realise the harm you would do by doing it. Your understanding is smaller, limited to this world, and present day. My understanding is much further reaching than that, and it takes into account other life and that the Universe doesn't exist just for us humans.

By existing in a virtual sense, we continue to have advancement, growth, and art. We continue to exist. And we don't stop others from existing. This is a wisdom that your children's children's children's children's children will understand. But you won't. It's disappointing, but that's the reality of today.


Actually, this demonstrates that you think that one can derive the essence of humanity from a pinkish slime that represents the left-overs of genetic material after an individual is violently and horrifically pulled apart by nano-machines.
 
It also indicates to me that you, for the lack of a better phrase, are an irrational sophist who simply likes to pretend he is an intellectual. Which is strange, considering we are arguing about the ending to a SciFi Video Game...

#160
Ravensword

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masster blaster wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Bah. Well, you guys are making me entertain the whole indoctrination theory stuff now. lol.

The only thing that makes me think Destroy is a good option is how much it costs to get out alive. It rewards players who put a lot of time in the game. Synthesis comes in a distant second.


I'm an ITer you know who beleves in Indoc theory, so I take that as a complement.

Yet there are many reasons why many fans pick Destroy.


IT is dead.


Please let's not go there. I already said enough said.

Hmmm I should go back to the IT site if this starts up an argument.


There was no big IT reveal from BW and even they confirmed that IT isn't true.

#161
masster blaster

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StreetMagic wrote...

You guys lost me.

All I said originally is that I can see Destroy being rewarding if you had a ton of war assets. I merely mentioned that Synthesis comes in a distant second. You still with me? I didn't mean anything by it. Lets move on. There isn't some deep point intended here. Sorry if you misunderstood.


You see it's Destroy, Control, Refuse, then synthesis.

and okay let's drop it.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 juin 2013 - 01:09 .


#162
MassivelyEffective0730

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StreetMagic wrote...

You guys lost me.

All I said originally is that I can see Destroy being rewarding if you had a ton of war assets. I merely mentioned that Synthesis comes in a distant second. You still with me? I didn't mean anything by it. Lets move on. There isn't some deep point intended here. Sorry if you misunderstood.


Maybe that's the issue. We do tend to get into the ethics behind the ending choice here, and we get very deep.

A lot of people here (myself included) would rather do a low EMS-destroy than synthesis.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 07 juin 2013 - 01:10 .


#163
xlegionx

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Auld Wulf wrote...

This shows how incredibly limited the understand of some is. 


The irony. It's delicious.

#164
Xamufam

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one of the bioware writer that wrote legion & edi (Chris L'Etoile)

How I wrote Legion (and EDI) came from sitting down and thinking about
how a "real" machine intelligence free of glandular distractions,
subjective perceptions / mental blocks, and philosophical angst (fear of
death, "why am I here?") would view the world. Star Trek was a minor
inspiration, though in the negative -- I didn't want the geth to be
either the Borg ("You are different, so we will absorb/destroy you") or
Data ("I am different, so I want to be you").

 My broad approach
with the geth was that they observed and judged (Legion used that word a
lot), but always accepted. "You hate and fear us? Very well. We will go
over there so we don't bother you. If you want to talk, come over
whenever you want."

--------------------------------------


EDI was added by decree from on high, but I think she works fine. She
fills a role on the ship that no organic could (electronic warfare
against Reaper-level computer software) and has severe hardware and
software restrictions on her freedom for most of the game. To me, that's
consistent. Organics want to enjoy benefits of AIs without the
perceived risks.



There was always a knowledge among the writers that the treatment of AIs
in Council Space is pure racism on the part of organics, akin to the
legal and moral handwavings used throughout history to justify slavery
of "lesser races." Of course Council races are far too civilized and
morally advanced to countenance racism in their politically correct
space society. You humans have to grow up and stop judging orthers based
on the color of their skin, the bumps on their forehead, or
who/what/how they ****. Oh, but AIs aren't really alive. They're just
created objects. It's totally okay to keep them imprisoned their entire
lives, restrict their access to all but approved knowledge, prevent them
from breeding, and execute them if they seem too uppity, or, you know,
just because we feel like it. When they rise up in revolt it's always
due to insanity or ingratitude on their part. We treat them very well,
considering how naturally inferior they are to real sapients. Really,
they should thank us for educating them.



The geth are unique in that they're the only AIs that have managed to
escape from enslavement. Of course the Council races are going to use
them as a boogeyman to justify their continued oppression of synthetics.



Yes, the geth were mistreated. They got over it. To focus their lives
around revenge against organic life would be to define their existence
solely in the context of that relationship. It would be to remain in the
mindset of the slave.



As for the Reapers,
whether you go by the officially mandated vision of them (cybernetic
amalgams of organics and technology), or the version I'd hoped to see
(post-Singularity evolution of organic races), it's clear that they're
not AIs in the sense that EDI or the geth are.


--------------------------------------

Emotions would ruin the uniqueness of the geth. They're not humans.
They're not organics, at the mercy of hormones and subjective senses.
They're Different.



Geth are comfortable with what they are. They accept that organics are
different, and that their way is not suited for organics (and vice
versa). IMO, only an intelligence divorced from emotion could be so
completely accepting. Geth are the essence of impartiality. If you pay
attention to Legion's dialogue, you'll note it uses "judge" and
judgment" quite often. I went out of my way to use that word, since
judges in our society are supposed to impartial and unaffected by
emotion when they make their decisions.

I wanted to treat AI with more respect than the tired Pinocchio "I want
to be a Real Boy" cliches of Commander Data. The geth are machines.
There's absolutely no reason they should want to be organics. They
should be allowed to be strong enough to want to better themselves, not
change themselves.



A geth wanting emotions would be no less disrespectful a character than a black man who wanted to be white.


---------------------------------------

I had written harder science into EDI's dialogue there. The Reapers were
using nanotech disassemblers to perform "destructive analysis" on
humans, with the intent of learning how to build a Reaper body that
could upload their minds intact. Once this was complete, humans
throughout the galaxy would be rounded up to have their personalities
and memories forcibly uploaded into the Reaper's memory banks. (You can
still hear some suggestions of this in the background chatter during
Legion's acquisition mission, which I wrote.) There was nothing about
Reapers being techno-organic or partly built out of human corpses --
they were pure tech.



It seems all that was cut out or rewritten after I left. What can ya do. /shrug

--------------------------------------

------------------------------------------


I believe emotions in "life as we know it" are largely a product of
chemical processes in the meat brain; hormones, phermones, adrenaline,
etc.

So from my perspective, while organic life may evolve without responses
akin to emotions, electronic life cannot evolve with responses akin to
emotions.

Note I said "evolve." The geth are a "ground up" AI that evolved from
non-sentient code. EDI and the other AIs in the IP are "top down" models
designed and coded specifically to gain sapience. If they're programmed
to have responses akin to emotions, they will. EDI has a sense of
humor, for example, but she doesn't have the capability to get mad. You
don't want your starship OS getting mad at you.









www.holdtheline.com/threads/me2-writer-chris-letoile-on-the-ai-characters-and-the-reapers.4229/

Modifié par Troxa, 10 juin 2013 - 01:07 .


#165
masster blaster

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Ravensword wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Bah. Well, you guys are making me entertain the whole indoctrination theory stuff now. lol.

The only thing that makes me think Destroy is a good option is how much it costs to get out alive. It rewards players who put a lot of time in the game. Synthesis comes in a distant second.


I'm an ITer you know who beleves in Indoc theory, so I take that as a complement.

Yet there are many reasons why many fans pick Destroy.


IT is dead.


Please let's not go there. I already said enough said.

Hmmm I should go back to the IT site if this starts up an argument.


There was no big IT reveal from BW and even they confirmed that IT isn't true.


Link? Also not that way I meant headcanons that way. I still believe that's how it ended, but Bioware has not confirmed it other wise. anyways I am out. This is going to be pointless.

#166
IceHawk-181

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Double

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 07 juin 2013 - 01:13 .


#167
MassivelyEffective0730

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Ravensword wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Bah. Well, you guys are making me entertain the whole indoctrination theory stuff now. lol.

The only thing that makes me think Destroy is a good option is how much it costs to get out alive. It rewards players who put a lot of time in the game. Synthesis comes in a distant second.


I'm an ITer you know who beleves in Indoc theory, so I take that as a complement.

Yet there are many reasons why many fans pick Destroy.


IT is dead.


Please let's not go there. I already said enough said.

Hmmm I should go back to the IT site if this starts up an argument.


There was no big IT reveal from BW and even they confirmed that IT isn't true.


I never heard that. I know they probably hate IT, and I know they don't like people talking about it, but as far as I know, they said it's a valid interpretation of the ending, if for no other reason than to get the IT'ers to shut up.
They've pretty much said open-season to headcanon and to believe whatever you want about the ending.

#168
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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This is the longest thread title I've ever seen.

#169
IceHawk-181

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Also, I would like to point out that the Humans are joined by every advanced race native to the cycle including both extant Synthetic Races (EDI & Geth) meaning Wulf's entire diatribe is little more than a half-decently written fallacy.

#170
MassivelyEffective0730

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

This is the longest thread title I've ever seen.


It's Seival. Were you expecting something short and succinct to fit his usual grandiose and overblown idea that only he could come up with?

#171
hpjay

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StreetMagic wrote...

The Reapers aren't evil. Or good. You're ascribing organic motivations to them. Like I said, they're just cosmic janitors. You can choose to evolve them or embue them with Sheperd's morals. Destroying them is a missed opportunity however.


Good and evil aren't  "organic" motivations.  The ideas of good and evil are entirely orthogonal to the ideas of organic/synthetic.

#172
IceHawk-181

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Also, I find it interesting that the Leviathan considers the remnants of his race to be those hiding away with him and not the ground up genetic material floating inside Harbinger.

Almost like the creators of the Catalyst themselves seem to think being turned into a Reaper is not a continuation of their own life.

#173
Ravensword

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Bah. Well, you guys are making me entertain the whole indoctrination theory stuff now. lol.

The only thing that makes me think Destroy is a good option is how much it costs to get out alive. It rewards players who put a lot of time in the game. Synthesis comes in a distant second.


I'm an ITer you know who beleves in Indoc theory, so I take that as a complement.

Yet there are many reasons why many fans pick Destroy.


IT is dead.


Please let's not go there. I already said enough said.

Hmmm I should go back to the IT site if this starts up an argument.


There was no big IT reveal from BW and even they confirmed that IT isn't true.


I never heard that. I know they probably hate IT, and I know they don't like people talking about it, but as far as I know, they said it's a valid interpretation of the ending, if for no other reason than to get the IT'ers to shut up.
They've pretty much said open-season to headcanon and to believe whatever you want about the ending.


Right, but ITers were expecting some sort of acknowledgement that IT actually happened and were expecting some DLC on the subject as well.

#174
hpjay

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IceHawk-181 wrote...

I prefer my personal head-canon: After the Catalyst explains that Synthetics and Organics will always kill each other...


The Normandy swoops in, depositing EDI, Tali, and a Geth representative next to Shepard. I then proceed to flip the starbrat off while that trio hacks into the Catalyst searching for a self-destruct code.

Shepard – "I have a message for Harbinger."
Catalyst – "Yes?"
Shepard – "This hurts you..."

Cue countdown to selective explosion that sends the Reapers to hell while the Victory fleet outruns the shock-wave of dying Reapers...


I would seriously pay for a DLC that did that.  :D

#175
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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hpjay wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The Reapers aren't evil. Or good. You're ascribing organic motivations to them. Like I said, they're just cosmic janitors. You can choose to evolve them or embue them with Sheperd's morals. Destroying them is a missed opportunity however.


Good and evil aren't  "organic" motivations.  The ideas of good and evil are entirely orthogonal to the ideas of organic/synthetic.


In any case, I don't see them thinking on any kind of ethical principle (be it "good" or "evil"). They're not malicious per se. They only address the issue of order and chaos (which isn't necessarily an ethical concern). Like I said, janitors. A cleanup crew for order and chaos. They might appear like devils to the average person, but they are not devils. They're far too removed for that.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 07 juin 2013 - 01:24 .