163 réponses à ce sujet

[legbamel]

Then point out the mistakes rather than making unfounded accusations.

[LoonySpectre]

If Hawke and Carver were with Loghain's forces, they would have most probably stayed in Lothering with the task given by Loghain to kill any remaining Grey Wardens... and died by the Warden's hand in Dane's Refuge.
Now THAT is a neat possibility for possible AU fiction:wizard:

Modifié par LoonySpectre, 08 juin 2013 - 08:38 .

[archangel1996]

Conduit0 wrote...

Heres how these kind of things go and why Devs ignore them.

Lore Fanatic: I've been researching the lore and have discovered severe discrepancies in the time. *insert long winded explanation full of incomplete information and poor assumptions*

Bioware Dev: Actually you made several mistakes in your interpretation of the events. See, you made mistakes here, here, and here.

Lore Fanatic: OMG Bioware refuses to admit they screwed up the timeline!

Bioware Dev: *facepalm*

My friend, to understand that there is something wrong with the timeline you don't have to be a lore fanatic, you just need a (functional) brain

Devs ignore them because they know they messed up and don't have the humility to say "We made a mistake"

[Ferretinabun]

KcK__ wrote...

I love Dragon Age series (and ME) and have played through them many many times but I never notice these things... Am I a bad fan ?

Yes.

Return the game and never darken these forums again.

You shame us all.

:devil:

[The Six Path of Pain]

Sorry messed up

Modifié par The Six Path of Pain, 09 juin 2013 - 03:30 .

[The Six Path of Pain]

Heidenreich wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

But can we at least start by getting the facts straight? I mean, what does the actual timeline say? What are the dates we know about?

Estimates on how long this and that should take are utterly useless, and not in any way at all indicative that bioware has botched the timeline. So, discounting personal theories on how long stuff should take, is there still an issue with the timeline?

DA:O 9:30-31
DA:A and most DLC for DA:O 9:31
Hawke expedition to deep roads 9:31
DA:WH 9:32

So Anders fled to Kirkwall in 9:31 after DA:A, but before the Warden Commander faced Morrigan during Witch Hunt.

As the timeline above states, DA:A happens the same year as the Deep Roads expidition. Okay.

Let's break it down.

9:29-30

• The Blight.
• Hawke family escape from Lothering,
• They go south to the wilds, are led through by Flemith to Guarren.
• Take a ship to Kirkwall
• Spend remaining half-year in servitude.
• The Blight Ends
• Sandal and Bodan go to the Circle in Fereldan

9:31 - January to June

• DA:A
• Hawke finished up other half-year of servitude
• DA:A finishes, Warden leaves to go on DA:WH

9:31 - June to Augest

• Anders hops a boat from Ameranthine.
• DA:WH Ends
• Hawke finishes his servitude and spends the next few weeks looking for work. Bartrand's expidition is a last ditch effort. They've run out of options, and they're hiding from the templars nipping at their heels..

9:31 - September - December

• Hawke meets Anders and various companions.
• Does things around Kirkwall to gather money
• Leaves on Expedition
• Expedition takes roughly one month -- Two weeks down, A week before Idol is found/Bartrand Betrayal, A week and a half back up/Two weeks if detour is needed for Sibling.

9:32-35

• Three year Gap.

... You get the point.

The only muddling of the timeline is for Sandal and Bodhan and seriously "A bout a year" is not a solid timeline from them. It's an exageration. More then likely they were probably only there for about 7-8 months, seeing as how they went to the circle at the very end of The Blight, and were encountered there by the Warden durring WH, which happens durring the time that Anders is on the boat and getting settled in Kirkwall and Hawke is finishing his/her Servitude.

STATIC TIME LINE wise, Anders gets to Kirkwall in late June and Hawke doesn't encounter him till closer to September.

Thus, the time line fits.

EDIT: Also, no where does it state that Witch Hunt happened durring the 7 years in Kirkwall AT ALL. Sandal and Bodhan could have very easily gone to the Circle Tower AFTER the stuff in Kirkwall went down. There is almost a year gap between when the Chantry Booms and when Varric is Interigated. Which means that durring THAT YEAR the Warden could have gone on WH and "Disapeared", as lent to the final words of Leliana in DA2.  If you HAVEN'T done WH when you start DA2, Bodhan doesn't mention HOW LONG they were at the tower, just that they spent some time there.

DA:WH ends in 9:31???Did they retcon the date Witch Hunt takes place?Because I specifically remember that Witch Hunt takes place two and a half years after the death of the Archdemon.

[LoonySpectre]

DA:WH ends in 9:31???Did they retcon the date Witch Hunt takes place?Because I specifically remember that Witch Hunt takes place two and a half years after the death of the Archdemon.

They did. At the official site, the description now says "...a year after the death of the Archdemon".

[kinderschlager]

neoskeptic2 wrote...

They should really consult their lore bible before writing anything else.

EA won't let them. that would require making a GOOD game.

[kinderschlager]

Rawgrim wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

Several devs, including Gaider and Laidlaw, have said that there are no timeline issues and just ignore the actual numbers any time they're brought up.

Ingore the problem and it will go away?

not iff we keep making these types of threads

[The Six Path of Pain]

LoonySpectre wrote...

DA:WH ends in 9:31???Did they retcon the date Witch Hunt takes place?Because I specifically remember that Witch Hunt takes place two and a half years after the death of the Archdemon.

They did. At the official site, the description now says "...a year after the death of the Archdemon".

Ugh I hate retcons.You would think Bioware would plan these things out better <_<

[Fredward]

archangel1996 wrote...

My friend, to understand that there is something wrong with the timeline you don't have to be a lore fanatic, you just need a (functional) brain

Devs ignore them because they know they messed up and don't have the humility to say "We made a mistake"

What, exactly, do you want? Them to beg your personal forgiveness? Promise that they'll never make a mistake again? Abase themselves before the Gods of Continuity and ask for absolution? Fact is noticing this and caring enough to make a thread demanding immediate acknowledgement and apology takes a level of anal-retentiveness that's scary. Why should Bioware apologize? This isn't a mistake that caused anyone any harm, emotional or otherwise ('cept, clearly, for you). It's a continuity error, they happen ALL the time and one that most people didn't even pick up on.

Get over yourself. <_<

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

LoonySpectre wrote...

DA:WH ends in 9:31???Did they retcon the date Witch Hunt takes place?Because I specifically remember that Witch Hunt takes place two and a half years after the death of the Archdemon.

They did. At the official site, the description now says "...a year after the death of the Archdemon".

Ugh I hate retcons.You would think Bioware would plan these things out better <_<

I tend to hate them too, but that one seems farily trivial to me.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 juin 2013 - 06:47 .

[NRieh]

And Honestly, Unless you hit up Orzimmar or Denerim second, you won't even hear about the loss of Lothering untill your Third or Fourth quest,

Speaking of "game device" - you see a skull on your map and it says "Lothering is destroyed by Darkspawn", also I recall that Bodhan can tell you about it from his "rumors" option.

They did. At the official site, the description now says "...a year after the death of the Archdemon".

Be thankful it's an official site, not some random dev twitter acc...
By the way, were there not some lines about OGB, that indicate baby's age?

Modifié par Nrieh, 09 juin 2013 - 08:12 .

[Conduit0]

archangel1996 wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Heres how these kind of things go and why Devs ignore them.

Lore Fanatic: I've been researching the lore and have discovered severe discrepancies in the time. *insert long winded explanation full of incomplete information and poor assumptions*

Bioware Dev: Actually you made several mistakes in your interpretation of the events. See, you made mistakes here, here, and here.

Lore Fanatic: OMG Bioware refuses to admit they screwed up the timeline!

Bioware Dev: *facepalm*

My friend, to understand that there is something wrong with the timeline you don't have to be a lore fanatic, you just need a (functional) brain

And functional brains are more than capable of coming to false conclusions based on incomplete information.

Plus you already proved my point, the fact that you can't even accept the possibility that you might be wrong is exactly why the devs don't bother, even if they do correct you, you won't listen to them anyways.

Thats the problem with lore fanatics, at some point they become convinced that they know without a doubt more about the ins and outs of the game world than even the devs, and they can't accept the idea that they could be wrong, even when a dev flat out tells them they are.

[Conduit0]

Nrieh wrote...

And Honestly, Unless you hit up Orzimmar or Denerim second, you won't even hear about the loss of Lothering untill your Third or Fourth quest,

Speaking of "game device" - you see a skull on your map and it says "Lothering is destroyed by Darkspawn", also I recall that Bodhan can tell you about it from his "rumors" option.

They did. At the official site, the description now says "...a year after the death of the Archdemon".

Be thankful it's an official site, not some random dev twitter acc...
By the way, were there not some lines about OGB, that indicate baby's age?

There are no lines indicating age, only that the child has already been born.

[killswitch423]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

LoonySpectre wrote...

DA:WH ends in 9:31???Did they retcon the date Witch Hunt takes place?Because I specifically remember that Witch Hunt takes place two and a half years after the death of the Archdemon.

They did. At the official site, the description now says "...a year after the death of the Archdemon".

Ugh I hate retcons.You would think Bioware would plan these things out better <_<

..."Fix the timeline Bioware!"

~BW Shifts Witch Hunt to fix it~

"WTF RETCONZ!!!1!"

<_<<3

[The Six Path of Pain]

N7_killswitch wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

LoonySpectre wrote...

DA:WH ends in 9:31???Did they retcon the date Witch Hunt takes place?Because I specifically remember that Witch Hunt takes place two and a half years after the death of the Archdemon.

They did. At the official site, the description now says "...a year after the death of the Archdemon".

Ugh I hate retcons.You would think Bioware would plan these things out better <_<

..."Fix the timeline Bioware!"

~BW Shifts Witch Hunt to fix it~

"WTF RETCONZ!!!1!"

<_<<3

I'm not one of the people asking for them to fix the timeline,they already effed that s@%t up.I'm just asking that they don't keep effing up their own timeline I can't understand how you can even do that in the first place!

Modifié par The Six Path of Pain, 09 juin 2013 - 09:10 .

[Sutekh]

archangel1996 wrote...

Devs ignore them because they know they messed up and don't have the humility to say "We made a mistake"

Actually, they do.

blog.bioware.com/2013/06/05/world-of-thedas-volume-1-an-errata/

And lovingly written too.

You know, as a lore lover, I love the geeky discussions where we get to over-analyse the lore material, but this thread isn't that. Some posts here, including your own, are more along the way of "let's hunt the mistake no matter what". It's hostile, anal-retentive, disingenuous and not very constructive. Also, sometimes, downright wrong about it.

DA is written by a team, not a single author, and is based on an interactive game with many possible continuities due to the many little choices we get to make. This means that consistency is made much more difficult, because the possibility of a mistake slipping in some descriptions is much higher than if a single person was writing the thing. It also means that there are constraints that simply get in the way of absolute consistency.

For instance, given the parallel structure of the treaty quests in DAO - which means we can choose in which order we do them - you can't have an absolute time-line about them. You also have the choice to go to Denerim right after Lothering (IIRC), at the price of a little dwarven premature birth if you're playing Lady Aeducan. Would you rather have no choice? Or no little personal race and gender-based thing?

Oh, and according to World of Thedas, Witch Hunt happens in 9:32. Which, considering, makes absolutely no difference, but no "retcon" (even though it's not what "retcon" means at all).

[archangel1996]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

What, exactly, do you want? Them to beg your personal forgiveness? Promise that they'll never make a mistake again? Abase themselves before the Gods of Continuity and ask for absolution? Fact is noticing this and caring enough to make a thread demanding immediate acknowledgement and apology takes a level of anal-retentiveness that's scary. Why should Bioware apologize? This isn't a mistake that caused anyone any harm, emotional or otherwise ('cept, clearly, for you). It's a continuity error, they happen ALL the time and one that most people didn't even pick up on.

Get over yourself. <_<

There is something wrong with you

Conduit0 wrote...

And functional brains are more than capable of coming to false conclusions based on incomplete information.

Plus
you already proved my point, the fact that you can't even accept the
possibility that you might be wrong is exactly why the devs don't
bother, even if they do correct you, you won't listen to them anyways.

Thats
the problem with lore fanatics, at some point they become convinced
that they know without a doubt more about the ins and outs of the game
world than even the devs, and they can't accept the idea that they could
be wrong, even when a dev flat out tells them they are.

You just don't read
 i am a math fanatic too, 2+2=4.......  i can't accept the fact that 2+2 could make 5
Aaaaaaaa-anyway, since i am a lore fanatic bring a dev that can explain why we are wrong, there wasn't one in 3 years? Do not dispair

Modifié par archangel1996, 09 juin 2013 - 10:54 .

[archangel1996]

Sutekh wrote...
...

Choice here, choice there, Anders in Amaratnhine, nope he is not, well he is but he is also in Kirkwall
An apology? I don't want one, what i meant to say is that they wouldn't do it anyway (bugs in the conoles versions of DA:O-DA:A, acknowledge them would be just bad)
Really, the thread is about "you made something wrong(something easily seen), please don't do it again" if, in your opinion, there is a witch hunting going on here, well, a shame

[R0vena]

It happens all the time - in books as well. I don't see a big problem with it.
Generally if I run into time inconsistancy I go like "Hmm.. isn't it/he/she suppose to be... (year/place/ect)? Oh well, I guess not (shrug, forget, continue playing/reading).

[wiccame]

Conduit0 wrote...

Nrieh wrote...

And Honestly, Unless you hit up Orzimmar or Denerim second, you won't even hear about the loss of Lothering untill your Third or Fourth quest,

Speaking of "game device" - you see a skull on your map and it says "Lothering is destroyed by Darkspawn", also I recall that Bodhan can tell you about it from his "rumors" option.

They did. At the official site, the description now says "...a year after the death of the Archdemon".

Be thankful it's an official site, not some random dev twitter acc...
By the way, were there not some lines about OGB, that indicate baby's age?

There are no lines indicating age, only that the child has already been born.

iirc at the begininng of witch hunt, during Morrigans narrative, she states that it has been 2 years.

[Boycott Bioware]

Sutekh wrote...
For instance, given the parallel structure of the treaty quests in DAO - which means we can choose in which order we do them - you can't have an absolute time-line about them. You also have the choice to go to Denerim right after Lothering (IIRC), at the price of a little dwarven premature birth if you're playing Lady Aeducan. Would you rather have no choice? Or no little personal race and gender-based thing?

I think choice is not the problem, but the narrative. For example, when the Warden got blackout in the Tower of Ishal, we have no information on how long The Warden being in Flemeth hut. There is no option to ask Morrigan or Flemeth "How long i have being here?", there is no indication of time there, the Warden just wake up and continue the journey.

before going to arrived at Lothering, we got a cut scene of Loghain arguing with Bann Teagon in a Landsmeet, so it means it have been long after the battle, but we don't know when that happen.

We could assume it is just "soon after Ostagar", judging by the Warden wake up in Flemeth hut, Morrigan description about Ostagar, Alistair mopping...surely it is not "too long" after the battle.

Secondly, maybe the devs expecting the player to follow certain route or "canon", Alistair suggesting going to Red Cliff first, and his dialogue about his past lead to Arl Eamon. The player is encouraged to go to Red Cliff first. Red Cliff is fairly easy compared with other places. So the Lady Aeducan and Gorim case is overlooked, because the devs expecting the player will go to certain places first. There is a dialogue about "find me in Denerim" the devs should expect Lady Aeducan players will go to Denerim first to find Gorim, "to hell with Grey Warden thing i want to find my lover"

(edit : Arl Eamon Knight being in Lothering Chantry is to force the players to go to Red Cliff first. For me that guy doesn't need to be there and Ser Bryant doesn't ned to tell about Circle Tower either, let the players discover things by own when arrived at those places)

The devs just don't want the PC to have romance with non-companions, to ditch out Gorim is by to ****** of Lady Aeducan players with "oh sorry i already getting married and expecting a baby", it can be a lot of other reason than that or make it later and not right away. Maybe the devs can make Gorim do loyal to Lady Aeducan first but after few campaigns, they re-think the relationship, or Gorim cheated, or Gorim dead or whatever reason to break the relationship. Gorim can stay in Denerim at his shop, the reason is he's injured, but to end the romance as early as possible with that dialogue suffer the time line problem.

Modifié par Qistina, 09 juin 2013 - 01:27 .

[Sutekh]

 ^You can't separate the narrative from the choice-based nature of DAO. The narrative is actually conditioned by that. It leads to time-line problems, but that's unavoidable without heavily railroading the player.

To make things a little less obvious, the game remains vague about time passed, and also nudges you (not very discreetly) towards an "optimal" course of actions, such as heavily suggesting starting with Redcliffe, but still leaves you the choice not to. Going to Denerim at this point doesn't accomplish anything in the big picture, but you still can. From there, there are two possibilities:

- Either the narrative remains PC-oriented and acknowledges choices, such as referring to Gorim's baby, at the price of consistency,

- Or consistency comes first, and the only way to do that is eliminating anything that isn't generic or wouldn't fit all possible courses of actions. You'd end up with a neat time-line, but a very bland game.

The only other alternative would be simply forbidding the PC to go to Denerim - like you're forbidden to go look for your brother as a Cousland - but, as you pointed out, there can be many reasons for them to want to at this point, such as Lady Aeducan wanting to check on her lover.

(Actually, there's another solution: multiply the flags to check on the state of the game each time. e.g. check which and how many treaty quests have been solved before having Gorim and his baby come into play. The problem here is that the more flags and variables, the more fragile and prone to bugs the game becomes. It's a possibility, but a risky one.)

Same goes with the parallel treaty quests: you've got the order choice, but it inevitably messes up the time-line, since, for instance, going to Orzammar (Provings, Carta and all) then through the Deep Roads doesn't logically take the same amount of time as cleaning the Tower, unless you pretend your Warden decided to read the whole library on their way or something along the line. And that's not even taking side-quests into account, let alone DLCs. 

It's consistency vs. freedom. See DA2: there aren't any time-line problem there (not within DA2), but plot choices are reduced to a bare minimum. Personally, I'll take choices over an ironclad time-line any time (within reason), especially since I've no problem with rationalizing and headcanoning if needed.

[Nightdragon8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

LoonySpectre wrote...

DA:WH ends in 9:31???Did they retcon the date Witch Hunt takes place?Because I specifically remember that Witch Hunt takes place two and a half years after the death of the Archdemon.

They did. At the official site, the description now says "...a year after the death of the Archdemon".

Ugh I hate retcons.You would think Bioware would plan these things out better <_<

I tend to hate them too, but that one seems farily trivial to me.

its not so much "planning" its more like, they didn't know if they where going to make a DA2 at the time. Or even for that matter what it would be about. sadly the whole sequal thing is always up in the air, in a worse way than it is on TV. with games, considering 1 game can ruin a franchise it can be rather harsh, because "It didn't get the sales" 

and with the price of games skyrocketing devlopers aren't willing to spend the money.

Honestly I think they need to start making more "low budget game" that use the same engine and resorces. I mean after DA2, we didn't get some silly knock off games that use the same engine, nope pretty much turned into abandon ware.

Liliana's song would be a good example of using the same resoruces only to tell a diffrent story, all they had to do was change a fure textures and the rest of the system was set up, and just needed to be modified for the new lines and stuff.

Farcry 3, and Farcry 3: Blood Dragon, is also a good example of using existing resoruces to make another game.