415 réponses à ce sujet

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Steelcan wrote...

Koris knew about the talks between Legion and Tali so it seems reasonable the other admirals did as well. Also see Tali's dialogue on the Geth Dreadnought.

Have you played all three games?

[Zazzerka]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

That said, I don't think I'll do such a bad job defending myself against an attack. It seems pretty arrogant to size up an opponent without knowing his mettle.

Waifu Warz...

BEGIN!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

The Reapers are pressing on all fronts rapidly first of all, that is not head canon.

Secondly, Legion == rest of the geth. Legion is conflicted on certain issues it stands to reason the geth might be conflicted on the issue of peace with the quarians.

Koris knew about the talks between Legion and Tali so it seems reasonable the other admirals did as well. Also see Tali's dialogue on the Geth Dreadnought.

The Reapers are pressing on all fronts.

The Quarians have a fleet of ships, nor did they ever say anything about being attacked by the Reapers. You'd have thought they'd mention that. You're directly assuming that the Quarians are under full scale Reaper attack. If that were the case, I assure you they'd deserve to be wiped out for being stupid enough to engage in a two front fight against two technologically advanced enemies with the state of their raggedy ass fleet.

Where did Koris say that he knew about the peace talks? When was this said at all? 

And Tali's dialogue on the Geth Dreadnought isn't indicative of anything? Did she ever say why she begged the Quarians not to go to war? Did she ever say anything beyond that?

You're making a lot of assumptions here. Assumption to which there is no hard data behind.

[Steelcan]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Koris knew about the talks between Legion and Tali so it seems reasonable the other admirals did as well. Also see Tali's dialogue on the Geth Dreadnought.

Have you played all three games?

.  Probably more than you

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Steelcan wrote...

Break down of peace talks would not have been conducive to a peaceful end to geth/quarian conflicts.

And Legion does not go to the Migrant fleet in any play through, and in my canon he goes to Cronos

Uh... okay, then. I guess I imagined it... <_<

[Dunabar]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

Miranda: I'm perfect
Shepard: I don't think your dad paid your dentist enough though.
Miranda: Why do you say that?
Shepard: Those buckteeth is why!

I don't believe Miranda has buck teeth. Large teeth maybe, but that's not a flaw unless you think of it as one. I don't see any problem there.

Nice job trying to use Miranda against me though.

I did it more for humor than anything. If you like to possibly consider it a attack however, we can go there, but I promise you will only make yourself look bad.

Sorry about that. I read the other guys post and realized you were in reference to him and not me.

That said, I don't think I'll do such a bad job defending myself against an attack. It seems pretty arrogant to size up an opponent without knowing his mettle.

Apology accepted.

I didn't see a opponent, I saw someone who made a mistake. You saw your mistake and said sorry for it, all is well now.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Zazzerka wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

That said, I don't think I'll do such a bad job defending myself against an attack. It seems pretty arrogant to size up an opponent without knowing his mettle.

Waifu Warz...

BEGIN!

Huh? I thought this for personal attacks. 

Waifu Warz: 

Miranda is perfect, Tali has chicken legs is a Quarian.

I win. 

*Edit* Nevermind then. Boy do I feel like an ass for this post.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 09 juin 2013 - 07:30 .

[Zazzerka]

I only read from the buckteeth thing onwards. Context was lost. Backpedaling imminent.

[Steelcan]

@Fiendish,

"After talking to Legion I thought maybe there was a chance for peace"
"I begged them to negotiate rather than attack"

"Admiral Koris wanted to keep trying negotiations"

[Steelcan]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Break down of peace talks would not have been conducive to a peaceful end to geth/quarian conflicts.

And Legion does not go to the Migrant fleet in any play through, and in my canon he goes to Cronos

Uh... okay, then. I guess I imagined it... <_<

* any of my play throughs

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

@Fiendish,

"After talking to Legion I thought maybe there was a chance for peace"
"I begged them to negotiate rather than attack"

"Admiral Koris wanted to keep trying negotiations"

Yes, she was open to the possibility of peace. 

She never said that she told the Quarians that she was in communication with Legion. As I recall, wouldn't that be considered as treason? Wouldn't that be akin to suicide amongst the Quarians? 

And provide a link to Koris. I don't believe he said that. I believe you're misconstruing what was already stated by Koris. "Only Koris opposed the war with me. And he was right."

It's never mentioned that Koris knew what was going on at all. Prove me wrong.

BTW, stop calling me Fiendish.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 09 juin 2013 - 07:35 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the geth do not care for any ship regardless of origin or purpose near their territory. The Normandy may be able to reach Rannoch but they'd probably kill you after you exited the ship. Meanwhile the Reapers are still there pressing on the fleet.

And the quarians through Tali were talking to the geth through Legion until Legion stopped responding.

Were we even able to ask Legion why?

.  No, anx he does not feel compelled to elaborate.

It just might have something to do with us later finding him "crucified" inside that Reaper device...

Something to note, though: Legion is surprised by the extent of the Reaper code infestation when you first enter the consensus. The Geth VI isn't. That means Legion was kept out of the loop by the rest of the Geth when they threw in their lot with the Reapers, whereas the VI is the rest of the Geth. The VI isn't surprised by the extent of the infection because it let them in.

The question here is, when did the Reaper get there? We're left with two possibilities. One is that Legion stopped communicating with Tali for no apparant reason prior to the Quarian invasion, the Quarians launched their attack, the Reaper somehow snuck into the Tikkun system behind the Migrant Fleet without being detected, docked with the Geth dreadnought and transferred the physical hardware Legion would then be encased in (still without being detected), then sheltered itself in a convenient pre-existing facility on Rannoch.

The other possibility is that while the Quarians were mulling over whether to go to war with the Geth, the Geth were mulling over which side to fight on. Tali speculates that the reason Legion stopped responding to her was because he was fighting the Reaper takeover (again, Legion stopped responding before the Quarian attack). It's possible Legion stopped responding because the rest of the Geth sealed him up in that device on the dreadnought. That the Reaper made contact with the Geth before the Quarian invasion, floating an offer which they shelved until their existence was threatened. The Geth would be well capable of destroying a single Reaper destroyer if they chose to cut ties. They'd have had time this way to build or retrofit a facility on Rannoch to house it. Then, when the Quarians invaded, the Geth either held off on requesting the code upgrades to go with that hardware until the sphere came under attack, or the Reaper withheld the code upgrades from the Geth until the largest organic fleet in the galaxy could be conveniently corralled in the Tikkun system. This last point is unknowable, but it makes far more sense to me given the timeline we're dealing with that the Reaper got there before the Quarians invaded.

One last thing to bear in mind. Pre-upload, neither Legion nor the Geth VI state at any time that the Geth would leave the Veil and assist the organic war effort. It's only as they prepare to upload the code that they announce their willingness to help. Given their history for the last three centuries, it seems a reasonable conclusion that the Geth's original plan was to sit out the war in isolation as they have always done.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 09 juin 2013 - 07:46 .

[Steelcan]

@MassivelyEffective0730

I can't remember the exact dialogue but Koris was aware of the talks. It's been a while since I had a play through where Legion was around.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

@MassivelyEffective0730

I can't remember the exact dialogue but Koris was aware of the talks. It's been a while since I had a play through where Legion was around.

And I always have Legion around and I never once heard him say anything about real, quantitative peace talks taking place. He's open to the possibility, but that doesn't mean he actually knows that Legion and Tali have been talking. 

As I said, it's likely that Tali is the only Quarian that knows about her chats with Legion.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@MassivelyEffective0730

I can't remember the exact dialogue but Koris was aware of the talks. It's been a while since I had a play through where Legion was around.

And I always have Legion around and I never once heard him say anything about real, quantitative peace talks taking place. He's open to the possibility, but that doesn't mean he actually knows that Legion and Tali have been talking. 

As I said, it's likely that Tali is the only Quarian that knows about her chats with Legion.

.Ill dig for the dialogue later.

[S.A.K]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the geth do not care for any ship regardless of origin or purpose near their territory. The Normandy may be able to reach Rannoch but they'd probably kill you after you exited the ship. Meanwhile the Reapers are still there pressing on the fleet.

And the quarians through Tali were talking to the geth through Legion until Legion stopped responding.

Were we even able to ask Legion why?

.  No, anx he does not feel compelled to elaborate.

It just might have something to do with us later finding him "crucified" inside that Reaper device...

Something to note, though: Legion is surprised by the extent of the Reaper code infestation when you first enter the consensus. The Geth VI isn't. That means Legion was kept out of the loop by the rest of the Geth when they threw in their lot with the Reapers, whereas the VI is the rest of the Geth. The VI isn't surprised by the extent of the infection because it let them in.

The question here is, when did the Reaper get there? We're left with two possibilities. One is that Legion stopped communicating with Tali for no apparant reason prior to the Quarian invasion, the Quarians launched their attack, the Reaper somehow snuck into the Tikkun system behind the Migrant Fleet without being detected, docked with the Geth dreadnought and transferred the physical hardware Legion would then be encased in (still without being detected), then sheltered itself in a convenient pre-existing facility on Rannoch.

The other possibility is that while the Quarians were mulling over whether to go to war with the Geth, the Geth were mulling over which side to fight on. Tali speculates that the reason Legion stopped responding to her was because he was fighting the Reaper takeover (again, Legion stopped responding before the Quarian attack). It's possible Legion stopped responding because the rest of the Geth sealed him up in that device on the dreadnought. That the Reaper made contact with the Geth before the Quarian invasion, floating an offer which they shelved until their existence was threatened. The Geth would be well capable of destroying a single Reaper destroyer if they chose to cut ties. They'd have had time this way to build or retrofit a facility on Rannoch to house it. Then, when the Quarians invaded, the Geth either held off on requesting the code upgrades to go with that hardware until the sphere came under attack, or the Reaper withheld the code upgrades from the Geth until the largest organic fleet in the galaxy could be conveniently corralled in the Tikkun system. This last point is unknowable, but it makes far more sense to me given the timeline we're dealing with that the Reaper got there before the Quarians invaded.

One last thing to bear in mind. Pre-upload, neither Legion nor the Geth VI state at any time that the Geth would leave the Veil and assist the organic war effort. It's only as they prepare to upload the code that they announce their willingness to help. Given their history for the last three centuries, it seems a reasonable conclusion that the Geth's original plan was to sit out the war in isolation as they have always done.

Like I said in this thread?

[DeinonSlayer]

Soldier096 wrote...



@MassivelyEffective0730
"Here's a question? Why did Legion have to portray the Geth killing anybody?" So i know I'm getting the truth instead of one-sided imagery that was prevalent in the entire mission. 

Was it not irrational for the Geth to kill anyone that came near them?  All attempts of diplomacy were shot down. They were well fully developed by then. They spied on organics and gathered information from them. They were well informed. They still did nothing. Not even a communication attempt. Then they allowed the Heretics and Sovereign attack humans. They didn't even send a warning. Yet they complain that organics do not understand them. 

Prime motive behind me writing my alternate Rannoch campaign.

I wanted to see the Geth acknowledge what they did and act to redeem themselves. I wanted to see how their unique strengths would aid the war effort. I wrote my version that way so they would do exactly that.

What did we get instead? Siding with the Reapers, playing the victim card, acting to strip themselves of what made them unique in the first place, lying constantly, and EDI calling me a "racist" when I don't buy it.

Doesn't exactly match what I had in mind.

[CynicalShep]

These are writing inconsistencies. Please don't tell David I wrote this.

1. There's a Geth Destroyer on Rannoch. It either sneaked past the Quarian fleet (the sneaky bastard) or was already there.
2. Geth only ally themselves with the Reapers 17? days into the war, in spite of that dude being there and everything being in place for the upgrade.
3. Reapers purposefully let their potential allies take heavy losses before uploading the code.
4. Ah, yes, "Geth building their own future". We have dismissed that claim.

What part of this makes any sense?

Modifié par CynicalShep, 09 juin 2013 - 08:16 .

[S.A.K]

CynicalShep wrote...

These are writing inconsistencies. Please don't tell David I wrote this.
1. There's a Geth Destroyer on Rannoch. It either sneaked past the Quarian fleet (the sneaky bastard) or was already there.
2. Geth only ally themselves with the Reapers 17? days into the war, in spite of that dude being there and everything being in place for the upgrade.
3. Reapers purposefully let their potential allies take heavy losses before uploading the code.
What part of this makes any sense?

Reaper allies =/= under Reaper control.
Maybe they were in a deal with Reapers to save themselves (like Heretics), but gave themselves copletely gave themselves in when Quarians attacked. I don't see how the Geth could, come to a deal with the Reapers, install Reaper tech on that ship, find and strap Legion into it and transmit the signal to all Geth within the time it took for the Quarians to blow up some satallites like Legion wants us to believe.

Edit : Also I don't see how the Reaper could sneak into one of the Geth bases without them even realising it lol.

Modifié par S.A.K, 09 juin 2013 - 08:19 .

[DeinonSlayer]

CynicalShep wrote...

These are writing inconsistencies. Please don't tell David I wrote this.

1. There's a Geth Destroyer on Rannoch. It either sneaked past the Quarian fleet (the sneaky bastard) or was already there.
2. Geth only ally themselves with the Reapers 17? days into the war, in spite of that dude being there and everything being in place for the upgrade.
3. Reapers purposefully let their potential allies take heavy losses before uploading the code.
4. Ah, yes, "Geth building their own future". We have dismissed that claim.

What part of this makes any sense?

As I said earlier on this page, it's possible the Reaper made its offer before the Quarian invasion, and the Geth shelved that offer, accepting the hardware but not accepting the code until the dyson sphere itself was threatened. It would explain why Legion stopped responding to Tali before the invasion - he was locked up in the Reaper device, as much a prisoner to the actions of others as Jona'Hazt. It's also possible the Geth requested the code to accompany the hardware less than 17 days into the conflict, but the Reaper sat on the code until the Quarians were all together in the Tikkun system, where they could be effectively corralled for later harvesting (likely to be processed into a new Destroyer), only then giving the code to the Geth.

The Reapers have no shortage of husks, and the Reapers themselves are almost unassailable. How much they actually need the Geth fleet as cannon fodder is an open question.

Legion initially says he doesn't know where the Reaper is on Rannoch. I'm trying to remember if the Geth VI gives any early indication that it does. Not that I wouldn't put lying past the latter in particular.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 09 juin 2013 - 08:47 .

[mass perfection]

That's why you pick Control.But in your guys' place,I'd go with geth extinction.

[David7204]

1. How did you reason this, again? When Shepard meets the quarian fleet, they aren't at Rannoch. The Reaper doesn't have to 'sneak past' anything. The fleet isn't even there.

2. Wrong. The war has been going on for 17 days when Shepard meets the quarians. We don't know an exact time when the geth ally with the Reapers.

3. What are you talking about? The geth are recieving upgrades already when Shepard fights them on the dreadnought and have been for some time. That's the whole reason the quarians need help in the first place.

4. Does accepting technology (like humanity and all the other species accepted the Mass Relays) somehow make you incapable of determining your own future now? If you destroy the Collector base, Legion expresses surprise that Shepard rejected the possibility of using the base on humanity's own terms. That very clearly implies he believes such a thing is possible.

Modifié par David7204, 09 juin 2013 - 08:33 .

[CynicalShep]

S.A.K wrote...

 I don't see how the Geth could, come to a deal with the Reapers, install Reaper tech on that ship, find and strap Legion into it and transmit the signal to all Geth within the time it took for the Quarians to blow up some satallites like Legion wants us to believe.

"Blowing up some satellites" can take a very long time. We're talking about a network of satellites around a star. Hell, chasing and blowing all current Earth's satellites would probably take some time, given how spread out they are. A deal with the Reapers would take seconds when parameters change. They don't do debates in big rooms, they communicate at the speed of light. Transmiting the signal is almost instant as seen in the ending where you allow Legion to upload the code. It takes him seconds to upload it to all Geth and annihilate the entire flotilla. Legion was already back there after the SM so "finding him" wouldn't be an issue. A couple Primes would make short work of immobilizing him as well. We're talking minutes versus days, I don't think the timeframe argument has a merit, really.

[S.A.K]

CynicalShep wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

 I don't see how the Geth could, come to a deal with the Reapers, install Reaper tech on that ship, find and strap Legion into it and transmit the signal to all Geth within the time it took for the Quarians to blow up some satallites like Legion wants us to believe.

"Blowing up some satellites" can take a very long time. We're talking about a network of satellites around a star. Hell, chasing and blowing all current Earth's satellites would probably take some time, given how spread out they are. A deal with the Reapers would take seconds when parameters change. They don't do debates in big rooms, they communicate at the speed of light. Transmiting the signal is almost instant as seen in the ending where you allow Legion to upload the code. It takes him seconds to upload it to all Geth and annihilate the entire flotilla. Legion was already back there after the SM so "finding him" wouldn't be an issue. A couple Primes would make short work of immobilizing him as well. We're talking minutes versus days, I don't think the timeframe argument has a merit, really.

Are you kidding? So it takes more time to for a fleet of 50,000 ships to destroy some statellites then to destroy that said fleet?

Also Legion can upload the code like that because the network is already there. The Geth had to install Reaper hardware on their ship and get Legion from where ever it was and connect it to the device (Remember Shepard saying "that is definitely Reaper tech"). Even that could only be done after the Reaper allience is made.

Modifié par S.A.K, 09 juin 2013 - 08:50 .

[CynicalShep]

@ DeinonSlayer:Given that we find Legion crucified and he later helps us fight the Geth I don't think he was part of the decision-making team, so to speak. I also never understood why they needed him to boost the signal to begin with. It was likely just an excuse to find a reason to crucify a synthetic.

David7204 wrote...

1. How did you reason this, again? When Shepard meets the quarian fleet, they aren't at Rannoch. The Reaper doesn't have to 'sneak past' anything. The fleet isn't even there.

2. Wrong. The war has been going on for 17 days when Shepard meets the quarians. We don't know an exact time when the geth ally with the Reapers.

3. What are you talking about? The geth are recieving upgrades already when Shepard fights them on the dreadnought and have been for some time. That's the whole reason the quarians need help in the first place.

4. Does accepting technology (like humanity and all the other species accepted the Mass Relays) somehow make you incapable of determining your own future now? If you destroy the Collector base, Legion expresses surprise that Shepard rejected the possibility of using the base on humanity's own terms. That very clearly implies he believes such a thing is possible.

1. They were pushed back, after the upgrade. That's how they found themselves between a rock and a hard place to begin with.
2. That's why I had the question mark in place. It was meant to communicate to fellow forum members that I am unsure of that particular number. Also, given that the Quarians were still very much alive it is reasonable to assumme that the change was fairly recent, is it not?
3. Yet they did not receive them while their Dyson Sphere/Bubble was being destroyed, which means the Reaper gave them the upgrades when they were already "flashbanging" Geth at home. That means no alliance was in place.