415 réponses à ce sujet

[S.A.K]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

I too consider the Geth as living being. It comes down to whether you are willing to over look what the Geth have done and consider them worthy of saving. Personally, I see Geth have done more damaged and commited more atrocities than any other race in the galaxy apart from the Reapers. So I will never let the Geth live.

I consider other races, like the Asari, the Salarians, the Krogan, the Turians, Humans, and Rachni, and certainly the Protheans of having caused more damage.

I believe the Quarians are progenitors of the entire problem with the Geth, and are unwilling to really alter their view (and repear history). If Shepard didn't need the Quarian fleet, he'd have left them to their demise at the whim of the Geth. 

I don't see how any of those races done worse than the Geth. I don't know any other race that help Reapers and other generally bad stuff as a whole race. Of course you are free to believe what ever you like just like me. I just stated my opinion.

[Anubis722]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

The Brobots are usually dead by the time of the battle of Earth...

And even if I were to spare them on Rannoch via peace it would just be to use them as cannon fodder.

When their usefulness ends they will be discarded like any other former Reaper "ally".

[ElSuperGecko]

Would I choose the OP's ending over the current Destroy ending? Nope, because I personally still consider the Geth a serious threat. 3 times over the course of 3 games the Geth sided with the Reapers against organics, and their ME3 presence ended with them adopting Reaper modifications. In my game, I chose to let the Quarians deal with them at Rannoch.

That said - I'd still happily choose the OP's suggestion over Control or Synthesis if their were no other alternatives, even though the Geth are the race most likely to attempt to adopt Reaper tech or revive a Reaper in a post-Destroy galaxy.

[S.A.K]

I expected a lot more Geth supporters here. Not that I want to see that or anything.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Phatose wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Phatose wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@Phatose

Lots of people see them as life. Even me. I've only ever had a problem with them on account of the things they've done. If I didn't already view these particular synthetics as criminals, I'd have a harder time answering this. It comes down to what minimizes losses (a touchy issue in itself - how many Krogan lives is the last Rachni Queen worth before the cost is too high to save her, if you are so inclined?).

Ah, wait, you're talking about the one beore that.

Yes, they've done horrible things.  There's really no doubt about that.

But, functionally, that puts them in the same boat as everbody else.  There aren't any races in ME with a clear conscience.

I too consider the Geth as living being. It comes down to whether you are willing to over look what the Geth have done and consider them worthy of saving. Personally, I see Geth have done more damaged and commited more atrocities than any other race in the galaxy apart from the Reapers. So I will never let the Geth live.

Really?

More then the Asari?  Who hid important valuable prothean data, gave the Salarians the AOK to raise up the Krogans for genoicide on Rachni.  Gave the Salarians AOK to neuter the entire Krogan race?  Gave Saren Atrius his spectre status which damn near caused the extinction of all races?  Who, after being shown that Saren was a traitor, proceeded to tell Shepard it was his problem and stick their thumbs up their bum?

Or the Salarians, who all of the above save the first are true?  Or the Krogans, who actually commited that first genocide and actually joined the Reapers through Saren (remember why Wrex pulled a gun on you on Virmire?)  Or the Turians, who dispersed that neutering bomb and produced Saren Atrius who nearly got us all killed?  Or the Batarians, who spent the entire series raiding and taking slaves?

I mean, you're absolutely entitled to decide that if you choose, but I have to say that does not seem to be the case to me, or even close to the case.

Well, you can blame the Reaper, Sovereign for the Rachni incident. Sovvy was playing around with them and got them on a breeding binge and ran the Queen's song through  a distortion machine so that they'd go on a rampage through the galaxy. The rest of the galaxy got desperate. So they uplifted the Krogan to fight back... it wasn't about right or wrong. It was about survival. We fight or we die.

Then the Krogan were given a couple of worlds and couldn't keep their populations under control on them and wanted more. And were told no. So they rebelled and started launching asteroids into worlds. So the Council layed the smackdown with the Genophage. It was the Salarians who developed it and the Turians who released it. It just stabilized the Krogan population. And the Krogan get a bent out of shape because they can't have a bazillion kids and a population explosion. Basically their relay needs to be locked, and let them nuke themselves back down again.

Or is it the Quarians who spend the entire game as basically the representation of the faceless homeless problem of the galaxy that no one wants to deal with. They're the homeless encampment. They get told not to approach the Citadel. Not to approach any of the home worlds. Their ships are 300 years old and would easily be blown out of the sky by the more modern fleets. Why? Because they wear suits and have no faces. They own no property. They are still paying for the sins of their great great great great great great great great great great great ancestors. And the galaxy shuns them. The modern Quarians need a world, but it costs too much and they'll never get the investors to fund a colony.

The question about the Asari, is that they knew there was a beacon, but did they know what was on that beacon? Did they know it contained information on the crucible? The Mars archive information only triggered when the reapers arrived. Perhaps it was just a gamble that it might contain something that could help? That's what it seemed like. It didn't look like it had been fully activated. See Walters had to wait until Cerberus found out through the bug in Udina's office that we didn't know about. Why we didn't meet in the Asari Councilor's office I don't know. Ah yes design another room? Was that the biggest crime?

And thus it ended anyway. It turned out not to matter anyway because we didn't need the data
anyway. All the endings were the same save for the color on your screen:
you died, the relays blew up, and the Normandy crashed. This was the biggest crime of all. All of our choices were for nothing. All of the friendships in the story, relationships in the story were suddenly and abruptly ripped away. Nothing mattered. Who cares about the fate of an entire race. I cared about Legion, about Tali, about Liara, about Wrex, about Mordin, Aria, Aethyta, Miranda, Garrus, Joker, EDI, Samantha, Zaeed, Kasumi, Jack, Grunt, Javik, James, Samara, Xen, Koris, Anderson, Bailey, Gerrel, and they were suddenly gone. Forget the slides. You're dead. All that for nothing.

So No. No sacrifice is an acceptable option. Reapers and Starbrat only dead is the only option. Then follow it with The Citadel DLC.

[Reorte]

I'd certainly be even more annoyed at an even more contrived attempt to ****** all over the player. Negative consequences need to be logical and flow out of the story.

[GeneralMoskvin_2.0]

Yes. A few dozen of sentient minds cannot outweigh a few billions.

Besides, let's look at a real world example. Communist Russia has killed millions. Would you still choose to eradicate their people over, let's say, Monaco?

[S.A.K]

GeneralMoskvin_2.0 wrote...

Yes. A few dozen of sentient minds cannot outweigh a few billions.

Besides, let's look at a real world example. Communist Russia has killed millions. Would you still choose to eradicate their people over, let's say, Monaco?

That is actually a bad comparison. In the Russian scenario, only a very small part of the whole Russian population is responsible for that. In the Geth scenario, every Geth is responsible. To clarify, I wouldn't sacrifice anything or anyone to save the Geth.

[GeneralMoskvin_2.0]

S.A.K wrote...

GeneralMoskvin_2.0 wrote...

Yes. A few dozen of sentient minds cannot outweigh a few billions.

Besides, let's look at a real world example. Communist Russia has killed millions. Would you still choose to eradicate their people over, let's say, Monaco?

That is actually a bad comparison. In the Russian scenario, only a very small part of the whole Russian population is responsible for that. In the Geth scenario, every Geth is responsible. To clarify, I wouldn't sacrifice anything or anyone to save the Geth.

The heretics scenario as well as the morning war, no geth responsibility there. And due to Legion's consensus finding methods I guess not all geth programs were okay with the reaper updates.

Still, I will opt for saving as much sentient life, organic or not, as possible. Thus, destroy is a no-go.

[N7recruit]

 If the Reapers died too yeah I'd do it but it would have to be ALOT more satasfing than what we currently have.
I wanted some of the crew to die or at the very least go through the same hell that Shep did rather than sit back on the Normandy like Coward's because " oh they are too precious & they could die" BS. It's a war and your going to see this through even If I have to drag your mangled body to the finish line.

@OP. You would have to balance out Control & Synthesis as well to make it fare. 
Control= Galaxy living in fear for thousands of years+ Sheps Reputation gose down in flames & their name is stricken from the history books
Synthesis= Alot of people die out as they are not ready/compatiable with/ or reject Synthesis. Like the JC Denton ending of invisible war with the galatic hive-mind with some mass suicides of people who belive they have been violated & are overwhelmed by the hive-mind to even it out.

Dark I know but if you are trying to tell this type of story then don't plaster over the negatives of the choices, do it properly

[IceHawk-181]

Wait, how are the entirety of the Geth responsible for actions perpetrated by Heretics that were not part of the Geth Consensus that you are now dooming to destruction?

Did people simply not talk to Legion or turn the sound off during the Geth missions?

The Geth are not the Borg; they are not a single consciousness people. They have internal disagreements and can even splinter over philosophical choices.

The True Geth, the ones that die in the Destroy Option, are the Peaceful Geth who defended themselves in the Morning War, isolated themselves from the Galaxy beyond the Perseus Veil, refused Sovereign, and seek coexistence with the Quarians on Rannoch if given the opportunity.

They are not the Heretics.

[Godwin]This is the equivalent of saying that one can sacrifice modern day Germany because of Bismark and Hitler.[/Godwin]

[S.A.K]

@IceHawk
Let's not turn this into one of those threads. I'll just say Geth have a lot to answer for. Read some posts in other Geth related topics and you'll see why.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

IceHawk-181 wrote...


[Godwin]This is the equivalent of saying that one can sacrifice modern day Germany because of Bismark and Hitler.[/Godwin]

You shut your mouth Bismark was awesome and Hitler was Austrian.

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

Due to some space magic of unknown type, Shepard has a choice. He can release the Destroy wave as is or alter it to create a physically destructive blast that kills him and a great number of allies, including the Normandy crew. But the geth as a species remain intact. Basically, would you trade yourself and your team for synthetics?

Really i'm not seeing the difference, all your replacing geth lives with is organic lives in terms of sacrifice. If it was sacrifice a handful so millions were saved that would be different.

[IceHawk-181]

Cthulhu42 wrote...
What is it with you pro-geth people and bad Hitler analogies? I swear, this happens in every thread.
And no, admitting you're invoking Godwin's Law doesn't make it better.

The evasion is quite interesting, the analogy is apt.
 
Population A rejected Population B and exiled them.
Population B commits morally repugnant acts.
Population A therefore can be held responsible for Population B?
 
Short of faulting the Geth for not actively repressing and eradicating other Geth they disagreed with there is no logical or moral support for holding them accountable for the actions of the Heretics.
 

And Godwin's Law is an internet meme, not an actual Logical Fallacy. The Analogy is imperfect, but apt. You are still holding a population responsible for the actions of a minority group that the modern majority outright rejects and took no part in.

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 08 juin 2013 - 02:58 .

[IceHawk-181]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...


[Godwin]This is the equivalent of saying that one can sacrifice modern day Germany because of Bismark and Hitler.[/Godwin]

You shut your mouth Bismark was awesome and Hitler was Austrian.

Well we can definitely agree on that...Bismark is the only German leader from history I actually respect.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...


[Godwin]This is the equivalent of saying that one can sacrifice modern day Germany because of Bismark and Hitler.[/Godwin]

You shut your mouth Bismark was awesome and Hitler was Austrian.

Well we can definitely agree on that...Bismark is the only German leader from history I actually respect.

You shut your mouth again Guderian and Rommel were both awesome.

[jtav]

wright1978 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Due to some space magic of unknown type, Shepard has a choice. He can release the Destroy wave as is or alter it to create a physically destructive blast that kills him and a great number of allies, including the Normandy crew. But the geth as a species remain intact. Basically, would you trade yourself and your team for synthetics?

Really i'm not seeing the difference, all your replacing geth lives with is organic lives in terms of sacrifice. If it was sacrifice a handful so millions were saved that would be different.

It spreads the casualties around to the rest of the fleet and makes it more akin to calling an airstrike on your position.

[Seboist]

Morocco Mole wrote...

It's almost like both sides of the quarian and geth conflict were in the wrong.

Even if one side was hilariously whitewashed by Bioware's writing

I would have liked to gain control of the Geth for humanity and use them to wipe out the Quarians but alas....

[IceHawk-181]

Did you pay any attention to what Legion actually stated?

The Quarian assault on the Superstructure literally destroyed the Geth's ability to conceive of a path towards survival and in a final act of desperation in the literal face of complete annihilation they turned to the only option left.

When faced with slavery or death they chose slavery.

And amazingly enough Legion immediately set into motion a plan to betray the Reapers the moment that Shepard showed up.

The **** analogy is quite apt in this case, as would any analogy that employed the moral dilemma of facing a Faustian bargain between survival and subjugation beneath an absolute dictatorship.

Human history is littered with populations that cowed beneath a regime it feared out of the simple desire to survive long enough to hopefully find freedom and security one day in the future.

Insofar as the analogy itself, citing Godwin was a tongue-in-cheek statement, get over yourself.

Also, Rommel sucked. A man who cannot bring himself to disobey a direct order that he knows will get his men killed and result in mission failure and negatively impact the overall war effort is not someone I hold in high regard.

[Dextro Milk]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

When faced with slavery or death they chose slavery.

Willingly choosing to aid another race of machines in killing all life in the galaxy... Bad move.

It doesn't take a genious to figure out you would die in that situation as well, but hey, we're talking about the geth here...