180 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Sure you can, Sten confirms that Qunari work hard and party harder. ~_^

[BlueMagitek]

Well I'm sorry you're blind to the truth, because Sten parties like a frat boy on copious amounts of drugs. =D

[BlueMagitek]

Nah, I'm talking about pre-Ferelden Sten partying, I don't even know what post-Ferelden Sten would be up to.

[Plaintiff]

MadCat221 wrote...

Sten(ishok) had a brief moment of panic, forgetting that regular humans are a bit squishier than him, and clearly regretted it.

Kirkwallishok had been content to sit in their compound for a long time, and only blew his stack because he had been putting up with years of bulls&*#$ from all of Kirkwall. The fearful dumb citizenry of Kirkwall is to blame. I for one am surprised the big guy lasted as long as he did before he went ballistic.

Nonsense.



The Arishok only has himself to blame for refusing to simply tell the Viscount what he wanted. It was Kirkwall that was forced to put up with his bull****. Deliberately obfuscatory bull**** about how ignorant, unenlightened non-Qunari simply wouldn't understand what he wanted.

"I'm looking for a special book" is not difficult to say or understand, and if the Arishok had said it, the Viscount could assign people to help find it, which they likely would've done, and then they could've returned it and the Qunari would have left.

Instead, the Arishok abandoned the task assigned to him by the Ariqun, and he took it upon himself to attack Kirkwall without approval from the other members of the Qunari triumvirate. He is a traitor not only to his hosts but to his own people, and as a result of his treachery, almost all of his men end up dead.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 17 juin 2013 - 03:44 .

[TEWR]

In response to the thread topic....

No.

That is all.

Instead,
the Arishok abandoned the task assigned to him by the Ariqun, and he
took it upon himself to attack Kirkwall without approval from the other
members of the Qunari triumvirate. He is a traitor not only to his hosts
but to his own people, and as a result of his treachery, almost all of
his men end up dead.

WAT. Please tell me you're joking.

For one, he did not abandon the task. He had Ashaad scout out the Wounded Coast and map it, no doubt trying to figure out where the two ships floundered incase the relic was in the wreckage.

For another thing, his people were actively searching for the book and by Isabela's Act 2 quest have actually managed to obtain critical information on where it was. And he sent his men to obtain it.

Finally, he was not obligated to tell the people a damn thing. It wasn't their business. Not to mention the fact that, hey, this is a prized artifact that someone might either sell to the highest bidder or if they're heads of state/politicians keep it as a trophy (like Orlais did). Is he really supposed to risk that?

That people let their racist and bigoted views of the Qunari bring them to actually antagonizing them and killing them is not the Qunari's fault, but the people who engaged in such acts.

Bullying a person into attacking puts the bully in blame, whether the victim of such abuse be Mage, Templar, Qunari, or puppy.

The Qunari were allowed to stay in that section of the city for as long as they needed to until they were done in Kirkwall, and they elected to neither proselytize their religion or even really interact with the people all that much -- choosing to be peaceful loners.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 juin 2013 - 06:11 .

[TEWR]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Qunari are more advanced, technologically and socially, than most of Thedas. :/

technologically yes socially depends on your view

There's no poverty, everyone has a role in society, there seems to be no abominations...

while that may be true, you are, from what I understand, forever stick in that role for the rest of your life.

Your stuck within a given field, but your role in that field can change.

[Asdrubael Vect]

 

who cares about Qunari if their Qun & Qamek make them perfect animals to work.

..they were replaceable mindless animals for Tammasarants and they would be animals for new masters if they still would follow this ammoral and stupid teachings of Qun

support Tal-Vasgot rebellions now and save Kossind race tomorrow by slaughter of all of Tammassarants ****es with their Qun bull****

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 17 juin 2013 - 07:49 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

He didn't really need to tell anyone the details about heh book, but telling the Viscount he's looking for it? Why not?

If anyonthing, if people knew there is a object Quanri are after and are offering a large reward, it would only motivate them to find it and sell it to the qunari.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Or it might cause them to want to sell it to their enemies. They don't really have the best reasons to trust the bas of Kirkwall.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 juin 2013 - 09:07 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Qunari are no more evil than any other faction in Thedas.

I'd say Tevinter is worse

[Darth Death]

There are many savages: The ones that are bear chested, the ones that wear armor, & the ones that wear cloaks. Savages may differ in appearances & strategy, but their motives are all the same.

Being a savage is such a terrible thing, but first, comb your hair, wear a three piece suit, & speak well mannered. Then, and only then will it be ok for anyone to be or commit savagery.

[Zkyire]

BlueMagitek wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Qunari are more advanced, technologically and socially, than most of Thedas. :/

technologically yes socially depends on your view

There's no poverty, everyone has a role in society, there seems to be no abominations...

*flips coin over*

And they're all slaves to the Qun.

But otherwise yeah.

[schalafi]

Telling the Viscount might have helped, after all he was really worried about the Qun presence, and didn't realize his desire for peace was being undermined by Petrice and her anti-Qun faction.

[Mykel54]

The arishok was so self-righteous that the believed that he, and only he, could find the book. Any bas in the city would be useless to finding the book, the arishok wanted to get the book "the proper way", read: qunari find the book. He could not be bothered to use bas intermediaries, like the local authorities of Kirkwall, to help him find the book.

He probably thought it was dishonorable or something, and that he must find the book himself with no bas help. He also chose to allow converts of the qun (Saemus especially) so he was proselytizing even if it was indirectly, in fact in almost every conversation you have with him, he is telling how much he wishes to convert Kirkwall simply because he cannot stand it.

If he didn´t like Kirkwall, then he should have left the city and use a proxy in the city (like human or elf qunari converts, not from the city, but from qunari lands as reinforcements) to find the book for him. I never regret killing him or every qunari to the last man, and i think Petrice had the right idea: you can´t just allow these qunari to come to your city and start converting like that, even throwing threats of conquest. The viscount should never have allowed them inside the city, or at least should have expeled them after the first incident with Saemus, he should have seen the threat that they were for the city, and face them, instead of appeasing them constantly like a coward.

Modifié par Mykel54, 17 juin 2013 - 05:54 .

[BouncyFrag]

Had Isabella not been a selfish rake, a lot of what happened could have easily been avoided. Hawke not being able to ask her why she always makes up a childish reason not to enter the Qunari compound in Kirkwall was also lame. Now taking Fenris with you when you talk to the Arishok led to some of the best dialogue in the game.

[Silfren]

gonzalez.melissa53 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

gonzalez.melissa53 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

gonzalez.melissa53 wrote...

You want to see an entire group of people destroyed? A group centered around a religious following or practice, based on the action of only a portion of said group. hmm... That's not racist? Me thinks these kinds of thought are for small minds and big trouble. I hope this is a joke.

When that religious practice is "mindrape and murder", it shouldn't be allowed to exist. We don't let groups express such ideas in the real world, at least not in the West (no, not even in America; advocating slaughter is not protected under free speech laws).

The Qunari are actively threatening everyone else in Thedas, literally all of the time. They make no secret of the fact that they will commit genocide at the earliest opportunity. The religion is toxic and needs to die.

For that matter, the Chantry is hardly any better, and I would be pleased to put an end to it also. Or at least remove it from the political sphere.

Based on just the games... you can see that not all qunari are the same. I believe that thier leaders could be held responsible but not them as a people. And only then for the instances they had a hand in. I understand that the comic aloods to some pretty shady mind control but that same can be argued for the chantry. Niether group is right but to say lets wipe them all out is pretty exstream. What about those who are farmers... cooks? crafts men? even low ranking military? you going to wipe out kids? That's not the answer. Heck people enterpret real religions differently maybe there are differing oppions in the Qun.

There are no "differing opinions" in the Qun. The Qun does not allow for them. If you have a differing opinion on how the Qun should be interpreted, then you'll be re-educated, or cast out as Tal-Vashoth, and then they'll send people to hunt you.

I did not say that everybody who follows the Qun needs to die, but the religion itself needs to be got rid of.

The Arishok had a role. It was war, right? He was sent to gurard/fetchXD the book and he failed. That was why he was in Kirkwall. 
Under the Qun he was never ment to "instruct" Kirkwall. He shouldn't have been there at all. He was a man who had lost his way. I'm not saying that the Qun is right by any strech of the imagination but I don't think we have enough information to date to write it off as evil. As for the Tal-Vashoth they were inclined to comit crimes. If you played DA:O even Sten talks about it. The villagers asking for help and standing by while they grieved over even the "smallest bit of bone". Soldiers defect and do horrible things every today and those defectors are delt with. 
All I"m saying is let the story pan out. Their might be something worth saving on all sides. Hates bad for you anyway and it doesn't look good on anyone.

It's true that other groups in Thedas are demonstrated as being just as brutal and savage, in whole or part, as the Qun philosophy.  I'm not sure why people keep making these "X is just as bad" statements, because I don't think anyone has seriously argued that said other factions are all sunshine and roses.  It's just that for this discussion, the Qun is the topic.  People shouldn't have to disclaim it with an introductory "Now, even though I'm discussing the Qun, I don't want anyone to think I am unaware of similar issues occurring within these various other organizations.  I just don't want to talk about them right now, because, well, I'm discussing the Qun instead." all just in order to keep people from making irrelevant points about other groups being just as bad.

I agree with the stance that since the militant arm of the Qun sees itself as perfectly justified in conquering all other nations, the people of those nations are justified in taking an equally brutal approach to self-defense.  It's true that the non-military aspects of Qun society are not actively promoting the Qun to others using the "join us willingly or else be subject either to brainwashing or death," so they're not exactly the problem.  Unfortunately, it's a reasonable conclusion to make that those people ARE indoctrinated into the belief that the miltary arm is justified in all its actions, and this isn't the sort of society where you could take the targeted laser approach and oh-so-carefully eliminate the militant arm without touching the rest of the Qunari peoples. 

So what are people supposed to do?  It is true that philosophically speaking, Qun society has very attractive points.  There is undeniable merit in a society which truly honors and respects all its peoples and ensures equality for all such that no one wants for basic needs.  But the fact that the Qun's militant faction believes that this fundamental nature of its society gives it the obligation and the right to force all peoples of the world to live by its tenets is not just a flaw in the culture.  It's the dark side to this incarnation of Utopia that damns it.

It's this aspect that makes the idea of the Qun so reprehensible to many of us:  It's not presented as being optional.  People are expected to love the tenets of the Qun so much that joining it seems like a no-brainer...but if people don't love it, the Qunari military is quite happy to brainwash them into loving it, if possible, or outright kill them if not.  It's obvious that willing conversion is what the Qunari militants prefer.  But it's also obvious that they don't think people have the right to refuse it.

It's harder to see because the Qun is more philosophy than true religion, but it really is just another fanatical cult.  The Qun believe that their way of life is so superior that they essentially believe that they have divine right to force the entire world to convert to it, under pain of death.  It is quite literally not one bit different from any other militant religion whose leaders believe they have divine sanction to conquer the world to the extent that they are justified in mind-raping or killing those who disagree.  It just seems to be more benign than malevolent because the appearance of universal respect and equality and lack of want are so attractive that it's easy to disregard the dark underside.

Something that gets overlooked is that we have not, as yet, actually seen Qunari society in action.  We HEAR--very pointedly from the people whose entire purpose revolves around promoting the Qun--about how awesome it is.  But we don't actually see how the common populace of Qunari peoples live.  Unless the writers at Bioware do intend to present the society as an idealization of equality and respect--and don't make inadvertent writing mistakes that put the lie to their intention--then I can guarantee that all is NOT as rosy as it is presented.  EVERY society has its untouchables, its underclass, it's discontents, and these peoples exist due to inherent social inequities.  We've gotten a hint malcontents in the form of the Tal-Vashoth, but that's not quite the same.  I think that, like communism, the Qun is a philosophy that only works on paper, and that we'll see this for ourselves if we ever get a chance to actually see Qunari society in action.

I could see the Qun being transformed, losing its radical militancy and instead "merely" requiring willing potential converts to undergo re-education, and being allowed to exist so long as it reimagines itself as a religion for the willing, but this isn't going to happen through peaceful diplomacy so long as the current ideology embraces the idealogy of forced conversion.  It's going to require the Qun being beaten down so brutally that its leaders finally accept that it has to fundamentally change in order to survive.

Modifié par Silfren, 17 juin 2013 - 07:26 .

[Kidd]

Silfren wrote...

But the fact that the Qun's militant faction believes that this fundamental nature of its society gives it the obligation and the right to force all peoples of the world to live by its tenets is not just a flaw in the culture.  It's the dark side to this incarnation of Utopia that damns it.

At the same time, isn't it understandable from their point of view?

As Qunari, you see uneducated children who are afraid of responsibility and honour all over the continent. These people have made up various ghost stories that are based in nothing but idiocy, which shackle their development and also make them hostile to your own people and the superior education and knowing you possess. When you reach out to teach these children how to eat with a spoon, they throw a fit about leaving their mother's breast and scream loudly - only these children are adults and scream through the use of swords and sorcery.

The children decide that education is not for them. Many of them even claim that the struggle to stay infantile and unknowing - the forcing of those their weaker to not have access to their own food and safety - is a path most morally just to walk. To excuse this downright sickening and evil behaviour upon you and to their peers, they hold up ideals that they do not seem to fully comprehend and claim the ghosts of their stories will like them better if they fight.

All the while countless people around the world are suffering and dying for their infantile behaviour. This cannot be justified in nature. Education which saves lives is not to be avoided.

[Solmanian]

Welcome to the middle ages OP...

[billy the squid]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Silfren wrote...

But the fact that the Qun's militant faction believes that this fundamental nature of its society gives it the obligation and the right to force all peoples of the world to live by its tenets is not just a flaw in the culture.  It's the dark side to this incarnation of Utopia that damns it.

At the same time, isn't it understandable from their point of view?

As Qunari, you see uneducated children who are afraid of responsibility and honour all over the continent. These people have made up various ghost stories that are based in nothing but idiocy, which shackle their development and also make them hostile to your own people and the superior education and knowing you possess. When you reach out to teach these children how to eat with a spoon, they throw a fit about leaving their mother's breast and scream loudly - only these children are adults and scream through the use of swords and sorcery.

The children decide that education is not for them. Many of them even claim that the struggle to stay infantile and unknowing - the forcing of those their weaker to not have access to their own food and safety - is a path most morally just to walk. To excuse this downright sickening and evil behaviour upon you and to their peers, they hold up ideals that they do not seem to fully comprehend and claim the ghosts of their stories will like them better if they fight.

All the while countless people around the world are suffering and dying for their infantile behaviour. This cannot be justified in nature. Education which saves lives is not to be avoided.

Shok ebasit hissra. Meraad astaarit, meraad itwasit, aban aqun. Maraas shokra. Anaan esaam Qun.

Modifié par billy the squid, 17 juin 2013 - 09:12 .

[Qyla]

billy the squid wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Silfren wrote...

But the fact that the Qun's militant faction believes that this fundamental nature of its society gives it the obligation and the right to force all peoples of the world to live by its tenets is not just a flaw in the culture.  It's the dark side to this incarnation of Utopia that damns it.

At the same time, isn't it understandable from their point of view?

As Qunari, you see uneducated children who are afraid of responsibility and honour all over the continent. These people have made up various ghost stories that are based in nothing but idiocy, which shackle their development and also make them hostile to your own people and the superior education and knowing you possess. When you reach out to teach these children how to eat with a spoon, they throw a fit about leaving their mother's breast and scream loudly - only these children are adults and scream through the use of swords and sorcery.

The children decide that education is not for them. Many of them even claim that the struggle to stay infantile and unknowing - the forcing of those their weaker to not have access to their own food and safety - is a path most morally just to walk. To excuse this downright sickening and evil behaviour upon you and to their peers, they hold up ideals that they do not seem to fully comprehend and claim the ghosts of their stories will like them better if they fight.

All the while countless people around the world are suffering and dying for their infantile behaviour. This cannot be justified in nature. Education which saves lives is not to be avoided.

Shok ebasit hissra. Meraad astaarit, meraad itwasit, aban aqun. Maraas shokra. Anaan esaam Qun.

Cit Fenris. And for the ones who doesn't speak Qun Struggle is an illusion. The tide rises, the tide falls, but the sea is changeless. There is nothing to struggle against. Victory is in the Qun