Aller au contenu

Photo

The Grand Cleric Elthina Started Mage VS Templar War


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
178 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Lulupab

Lulupab
  • Members
  • 5 455 messages
Base on what I've gathered up about this woman is that shes is one of thee most powerful person in Kirkwall. She had the legal authority to tried and imprisoned the former Viscount, Perrin Threnhold and using her title as theGrand Cleric she appointed Meredith Stannard as the new Knight-Commander; she didn't even bother checking out her background prior to appointing her as the new Night-Commander. Apparently a lot of people love (Not all of course) this woman like they love their mothers.

I use to think she was a saint. I wanted to kill Anders after what he did in Act 3, and I did exactly that on my first two characters out of pure ignorance. Right after I've finished playing with my third one my emotional opinion of this woman changed. I can't help but to accuse this woman for aiding Meredith tyrant behavior against the Mages after ACT 2 for three solid years, and for allowing her to consistently bully and harass The First Enchanter Orsino, and other Mages that becamefallen victims of this tyranny. For three years this woman allowed Meredith to essentially rule Kirkwall therefor giving her even grater power than she should have been allowed to have. Three years of
systematic abuse under Meredith tyrant Regine caused so many mages to rely on blood magic to defend themselves as an act of pure desperation. In the beginning stage of ACT 3: Showdown Orsino rallied up the citizenson the streets to vent out his frustrations to the public. He couldn't be more right in his speech. Meredith approaches and essentially defended herself. After Hawke intervened and choose which was was right, or stayed neutral. The Grand Cleric cat walked up to active participants like if she was gods gift to the peopleof Kirkwall to then break up the fight between Meredith and Orsino. She then told the citizens to go home. Act: 3 The Last Straw the final scene shows Meredith having a psychotic breakdown, and Orsino was even cooperative to her, but she wanted more and more.

I blame this woman for the starting of this war because she did nothing about it. I'm glad Anders did what he did because it was necessary. I would've prefer if she was made tranquil, and was force to become my servant in my fancy mansion, or become a servant to the Mages in the circle by serving them food and etc

Modifié par Rassler, 08 juin 2013 - 11:35 .


#2
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

Guest_EntropicAngel_*
  • Guests
I feel like you're taking all this a bit too seriously.

#3
lil yonce

lil yonce
  • Members
  • 2 321 messages
Not DA3 related.

Lockdown.

#4
DatOneFanboy

DatOneFanboy
  • Members
  • 713 messages
WHO CARES u might aswell blame hawke for starting the war

#5
Lulupab

Lulupab
  • Members
  • 5 455 messages

Youth4Ever wrote...

Not DA3 related.

Lockdown.


Why? Isn't DA3 about Mage Templar war? I'm elaborating my opinion which was someone else's actually.

Modifié par Rassler, 08 juin 2013 - 11:31 .


#6
Jedi Master of Orion

Jedi Master of Orion
  • Members
  • 6 915 messages
The game makes it pretty clear that Meredith refused to follow Elthina's advice. In practical terms there wasn't much she could do to make her.

Anders was the one who started the war. It was the whole point of what he did.

#7
Lulupab

Lulupab
  • Members
  • 5 455 messages

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The game makes it pretty clear that Meredith refused to follow Elthina's advice. In practical terms there wasn't much she could do to make her.

Anders was the one who started the war. It was the whole point of what he did.


And you didn't even read my post. How amusing.

#8
HurricaneGinger

HurricaneGinger
  • Members
  • 2 197 messages
I used to agree with this idea, and a part of me IS still angry with the Grand Cleric for not doing anything when she obviously could.

Yet, as the Grand Cleric and voice of Andraste's teachings, she CAN'T do anything. Like the Grey Wardens, being a mother of faith is a neutral party. Yes, Andraste took up a sword and cast down the Imperium, but mothers and priestesses are taught that violence is never the answer. They can't take sides without half their followers of Thedas rallying against them and calling the Chantry - the very foundation of their faith - corrupt. As she said to Sebastian, they cannot condone murder; and Sebastian said "sometimes the bravest thing to do is to step back and let the Maker decide." That is what they are taught to do from day one, they put all their trust in their god to do the work.

Elthina DOES try to smooth things out, but in tiny bits and only what we see on screen. She just expects Orsino and Meredith to come to a compromise as their station requires; she expects the Maker to do His work. But she can't make an outright promise to either of them. It's very frustrating, but is she totally to blame for the war? I don't think so. Everyone had their part to play in Kirkwall.

#9
Jedi Master of Orion

Jedi Master of Orion
  • Members
  • 6 915 messages

Rassler wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The game makes it pretty clear that Meredith refused to follow Elthina's advice. In practical terms there wasn't much she could do to make her.

Anders was the one who started the war. It was the whole point of what he did.


And you didn't even read my post. How amusing.


Actually I did. You blamed her for allowing Meredith to rule the city (and didn't like the way she walked to break up the Meredith Orsino argument). I said she couldn't really do anything about it except hope that Meredith listens to her advice when it mattered. The practical amount of influence and authority was limited. You blamed her for doing nothing, and I said there wasn't much she could do. It was a direct response.

I also thought it was a little odd you blame her forstarting  a war that you apparently also thought was necessary.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 08 juin 2013 - 11:47 .


#10
Lulupab

Lulupab
  • Members
  • 5 455 messages

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The game makes it pretty clear that Meredith refused to follow Elthina's advice. In practical terms there wasn't much she could do to make her.

Anders was the one who started the war. It was the whole point of what he did.


And you didn't even read my post. How amusing.


Actually I did. You blamed her for allowing Meredith to rule the city (and didn't like the way she walked to break up the Meredith Orsino argument). I said she couldn't really do anything about it except hope that Meredith listens to her advice when it mattered. The practical amount of influence and authority was limited.


Yet if Merefit didn't become a tyrant and allowed a viscount to be chosen none of that would happen.

#11
Jedi Master of Orion

Jedi Master of Orion
  • Members
  • 6 915 messages
Then that's Meredith's fault.

#12
AstraDrakkar

AstraDrakkar
  • Members
  • 1 117 messages
Based on what her position allowed her to do, I think Elthina did what she was able. Her position as grand cleric doesn't really give her a lot of political power.

Modifié par AstraDrakkar, 08 juin 2013 - 11:50 .


#13
Lulupab

Lulupab
  • Members
  • 5 455 messages

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Then that's Meredith's fault.


Elthina choose her to become knight commander.

#14
Lulupab

Lulupab
  • Members
  • 5 455 messages

AstraDrakkar wrote...

Based on what her position allowed her to do, I think Elthina did what she was able. Her position as grand cleric doesn't really give her a lot of politcal power.


You have got to be kidding me, she had the power to imprison the viscount.

#15
AstraDrakkar

AstraDrakkar
  • Members
  • 1 117 messages
Yes, she could have done that, but what do you think the fallout from doing so would have been?

#16
Lulupab

Lulupab
  • Members
  • 5 455 messages

AstraDrakkar wrote...

Yes, she could have done that, but what do you think the fallout from doing so would have been?


She could have stopped meredtih's madness but she didn't. Sometimes the biggest of crimes is having power to stop something cruel but not doing it.

#17
Tinxa

Tinxa
  • Members
  • 1 548 messages
You warn her about Petrice and she does nothing, you warn her about Meredith and she does nothing again... she singlehandedly starts two wars :P

All she does is spout platitutes: "The makers time is not mans time" And "The chantry isn't a demanding father, she's a gentle mother..." .... that really helped a lot... thanks Elthina.

#18
LobselVith8

LobselVith8
  • Members
  • 16 993 messages

Rassler wrote...

Base on what I've gathered up about this woman is that shes is one of thee most powerful person in Kirkwall. She had the legal authority to tried and imprisoned the former Viscount, Perrin Threnhold and using her title as the Grand Cleric she appointed Meredith Stannard as the new Knight-Commander; she didn't even bother checking out her background prior to appointing her as the new Night-Commander. Apparently a lot of people love (Not all of course) this woman like they love their mothers.


Grand Cleric Elthina was popular, that's true, and I find it troubling that she advanced someone like Petrice to the position of 'Mother' while letting Meredith have so much reign. I remember how Elthina did nothing when Hawke brought to her attention the abuses going on within her administration, as well as the vile actions brought about by Ser Alrik. I don't see why other people see her as a good character; she was fairly repungnant to me. As far as Inquisition is concerned, I think it would be realistic if characters - including the protagonist - were allowed to have differing points of view on the inception of the Mage-Templar War than Wynne.

Being limited to having Wynne's point of view on the matter would be offensive. Further, I wonder if some of the characters, or even the protagonist, will be allowed to condemn Grand Cleric Elthina for refusing to reign in her subordinate, Knight-Commander Meredith, during her three year reign of terror on Kirkwall? Or will everyone be forced to share Wynne's perspective on the matter, including the vilification of Anders?

Rassler wrote...

I use to think she was a saint. I wanted to kill Anders after what he did in Act 3, and I did exactly that on my first two characters out of pure ignorance. Right after I've finished playing with my third one my emotional opinion of this woman changed. I can't help but to accuse this woman for aiding Meredith tyrant behavior against the Mages after ACT 2 for three solid years, and for allowing her to consistently bully and harass The First Enchanter Orsino, and other Mages that became fallen victims of this tyranny.


Elthina was Meredith's superior, and she did nothing to stop her de facto dictatorship or her death squad. I hope the new protagonist isn't forced into one point of view on the matter.

Rassler wrote...

For three years this woman allowed Meredith to essentially rule Kirkwall therefor giving her even grater power than she should have been allowed to have. Three years of systematic abuse under Meredith tyrant Regine caused so many mages to rely on blood magic to defend themselves as an act of pure desperation. In the beginning stage of ACT 3: Showdown Orsino rallied up the citizenson the streets to vent out his frustrations to the public. He couldn't be more right in his speech.


I agreed with Orsino, although the speech does railroad a pro-mage Hawke into saying little to defend Meredith's snide remark about his mother, despite the fact that it was Meredith's own incompetence that allowed Quentin to have such reign when Emeric was the only one who tried to stop the serial killer. It's this kind of railroading (both in terms of story and protagonist perspective) that I hope isn't repeated in Inquisition.

Rassler wrote...

Meredith approaches and essentially defended herself. After Hawke intervened and choose which was was right, or stayed neutral. The Grand Cleric cat walked up to active participants like if she was gods gift to the people of Kirkwall to then break up the fight between Meredith and Orsino. She then told the citizens to go home. Act: 3 The Last Straw the final scene shows Meredith having a psychotic breakdown, and Orsino was even cooperative to her, but she wanted more and more.


It's this display of power and authority over both Orsino and Meredith that makes me doubt that Elthina could do nothing about her templar subordinate.

Rassler wrote...

I blame this woman for the starting of this war because she did nothing about it. I'm glad Anders did what he did because it was necessary. I would've prefer if she was made tranquil, and was force to become my servant in my fancy mansion, or become a servant to the Mages in the circle by serving them food and etc 


Well, Anders' actions lead to the emancipation of all the Circles of Magi in the Andrastian kingdoms, so it's hard to condemn him when he turned out to be right.

#19
Jedi Master of Orion

Jedi Master of Orion
  • Members
  • 6 915 messages

Rassler wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Then that's Meredith's fault.


Elthina choose her to become knight commander.


I tend to think it's more appropriate to asign blame to people for their own actions rather than those who went rouge under their command. By that logic, you can blame Maric for Calain's death because Maric raised Loghain to the noblity, but I think it's really Loghain's fault.

#20
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages
Elthina was either a colossal fool or outright using Meredith as a scapegoat while actively working to tighten the Chantry's grip over Kirkwall. I wouldn't be surprised if she approved of Petrice's actions and then let her die when she was no longer useful, either.

#21
Muddle

Muddle
  • Members
  • 147 messages
I kept hoping we would find out she was possessed by a demon.

#22
Ianamus

Ianamus
  • Members
  • 3 388 messages
Since when does "Not doing anything" = "singlehandedly started the war"? By it's very definition being neutral and passive makes it impossible to be the sole one responsible for something.

And if your going to complain that Elthina did nothing you can't ignore the fact that, until the very end of the game, Hawke did nothing to stop the war from happening either. Well, except for supplying the terrorist with the materials e used to cause the war in the first place...

Modifié par EJ107, 09 juin 2013 - 12:03 .


#23
Lulupab

Lulupab
  • Members
  • 5 455 messages

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Then that's Meredith's fault.


Elthina choose her to become knight commander.


I tend to think it's more appropriate to asign blame to people for their own actions rather than those who went rouge under their command. By that logic, you can blame Maric for Calain's death because Maric raised Loghain to the noblity, but I think it's really Loghain's fault.


Its not just choosing her, she could have stepped in and stop her anytime, she had 6 years but she didn't. She didn't even stop petrice even when you warn her. She could have stopped 2 wars but she didn't. Maric would have stopped Loghian if he knew. Elthina Knew.

Modifié par Rassler, 09 juin 2013 - 12:03 .


#24
Lulupab

Lulupab
  • Members
  • 5 455 messages

EJ107 wrote...

Since when does "Not doing anything" = "singlehandedly started the war"? By it's very definition being neutral and passive makes it impossible to be the sole one responsible for something.

And if your going to complain that Elthina did nothing you can't ignore the fact that, until the very end of the game, Hawke did nothing to stop the war from happening either. Well, except for supplying the terrorist with the materials e used to cause the war in the first place...


By neutral and passive yo mean ignorant and naive of course. She could have stopped it but she didn't, that's even worse than starting the war. Hawke couldn't really do anything before becoming a champion and after than he only could choose a side. If only he could become a viscount before the war...

#25
Ianamus

Ianamus
  • Members
  • 3 388 messages

Rassler wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Since when does "Not doing anything" = "singlehandedly started the war"? By it's very definition being neutral and passive makes it impossible to be the sole one responsible for something.

And if your going to complain that Elthina did nothing you can't ignore the fact that, until the very end of the game, Hawke did nothing to stop the war from happening either. Well, except for supplying the terrorist with the materials e used to cause the war in the first place...


By neutral and passive yo mean ignorant and naive of course. She could have stopped it but she didn't, that's even worse than starting the war. Hawke couldn't really do anything before becoming a champion and after than he only could choose a side. If only he could become a viscount before the war...


I don't see what Elthina could do without choosing a side. If she tried to back the mages Meredith would have revolted against her as well as the circle, like the Templars did when they felt the divine was siding with the mages. 

And if she sided with the templars then the circle would have revolted like they did anyway. Nothing would have been prevented, the war would have just started sooner. 

Modifié par EJ107, 09 juin 2013 - 12:10 .