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[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rassler wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Then that's Meredith's fault.

Elthina choose her to become knight commander.

I tend to think it's more appropriate to asign blame to people for their own actions rather than those who went rouge under their command. By that logic, you can blame Maric for Calain's death because Maric raised Loghain to the noblity, but I think it's really Loghain's fault.

Its not just choosing her, she could have stepped in and stop her anytime, she had 6 years but she didn't. She didn't even stop petrice even when you warn her. She could have stopped 2 wars but she didn't. Maric would have stopped Loghian if he knew. Elthina Knew.

No she couldn't. While she was supposedly Meredith's superior, in practical terms she didn't have the power to stop her. The amount of influence she had depended on how much Meredith cared to listen, which she was not.

[Lulupab]

EJ107 wrote...

Rassler wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Since when does "Not doing anything" = "singlehandedly started the war"? By it's very definition being neutral and passive makes it impossible to be the sole one responsible for something.

And if your going to complain that Elthina did nothing you can't ignore the fact that, until the very end of the game, Hawke did nothing to stop the war from happening either. Well, except for supplying the terrorist with the materials e used to cause the war in the first place...

By neutral and passive yo mean ignorant and naive of course. She could have stopped it but she didn't, that's even worse than starting the war. Hawke couldn't really do anything before becoming a champion and after than he only could choose a side. If only he could become a viscount before the war...

I don't see what Elthina could do without choosing a side. If she tried to back the mages Meredith would have revolted against her as well as the circle, like the Templars did when they felt the divine was siding with the mages. 

And if she sided with the templars then the circle would have revolted like they did anyway, nothing would have been prevented, the war would have just started sooner. 

She could have branded Meredith a tyrant and choose another knight commaner possibly Cullen. That wouldn't have mean she choose mages side, that means she punished a corrupt templar. She could have also choose someone to be viscount, at least for some time until tensions were gone.

[Lulupab]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Then that's Meredith's fault.

Elthina choose her to become knight commander.

I tend to think it's more appropriate to asign blame to people for their own actions rather than those who went rouge under their command. By that logic, you can blame Maric for Calain's death because Maric raised Loghain to the noblity, but I think it's really Loghain's fault.

Its not just choosing her, she could have stepped in and stop her anytime, she had 6 years but she didn't. She didn't even stop petrice even when you warn her. She could have stopped 2 wars but she didn't. Maric would have stopped Loghian if he knew. Elthina Knew.

No she couldn't. While she was supposedly Meredith's superior, in practical terms she didn't have the power to stop her. The amount of influence she had depended on how much Meredith cared to listen, which she was not.

She had the power. She could imprison the viscount and Meredith did not even dare to speak back to her. Everything Elthina said she answered " Yes your grace". Eltina herself says "I am grand cleric, who would dare attack me". No one dared but Anders, and we know Justice drived him.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Her power existed as long as Meredith tolerated it. Being told to go home is not a big deal. But If she tried to stop actively take action against Meredith's growing power, Meredith could have stopped her. Those that she'd need to enforce such a drastic action would either follow Meredith or Viscount Dunmar first.

I'm reminded of this scene actually: www.youtube.com/watch

Afterward breaking up the fight she said to Hawke that she was going to try to talk to Meredith and Orsino. Neither one of them changed their behavior.

Sebastian will say in a conversation to Aveline that Meredith has "stopped taking the Chantry's advice."

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 juin 2013 - 12:26 .

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Its not just choosing her, she could have stepped in and stop her anytime, she had 6 years but she didn't. She didn't even stop petrice even when you warn her. She could have stopped 2 wars but she didn't. Maric would have stopped Loghian if he knew. Elthina Knew. 

No she couldn't. While she was supposedly Meredith's superior, in practical terms she didn't have the power to stop her. The amount of influence she had depended on how much Meredith cared to listen, which she was not. 

Elthina didn't even try to stop Meredith. Giving "advice" and giving orders are two very different things, after all, and Elthina was legally Meredith's superior in the Chantry.

[d-boy15]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Its not just choosing her, she could have stepped in and stop her anytime, she had 6 years but she didn't. She didn't even stop petrice even when you warn her. She could have stopped 2 wars but she didn't. Maric would have stopped Loghian if he knew. Elthina Knew. 

No she couldn't. While she was supposedly Meredith's superior, in practical terms she didn't have the power to stop her. The amount of influence she had depended on how much Meredith cared to listen, which she was not. 

Elthina didn't even try to stop Meredith. Giving "advice" and giving orders are two very different things, after all, and Elthina was legally Meredith's superior in the Chantry.

You know a position is just looks right? A King without army is nothing at all.

The most powerful people is the one who got biggest army and in this case it's Meredith. 

Modifié par d-boy15, 09 juin 2013 - 01:03 .

[Medhia Nox]

Do you mean the same First Enchanter who learned blood magic and was in collusion with a blood mage murderer psychopath?

[Mr.House]

The people who caused the war was Lambert and the mages that voted to leave the chantry. The only person who had role in even starting it in DA2 was Anders because his actions sowed chaos and hadt he mage council shut down for awhile.

This thread just seems like anti chantry spewl, more so when Asunder shows us how the war truly starts.

Modifié par Mr.House, 09 juin 2013 - 01:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Er, the mages started no war. They voted to leave, the Chantry didn't fight them. No war from their actions.

[Vit246]

Mr.House wrote...

The people who caused the war was Lambert and the mages that voted to leave the chantry. The only person who had role in even starting it in DA2 was Anders because his actions sowed chaos and hadt he mage council shut down for awhile.

This thread just seems like anti chantry spewl, more so when Asunder shows us how the war truly starts.

Not all of us have read or the desire to read external sources of info outside of the game especially when that kind of info should be in the game in the first place.

I used to have an opinion about this, but I've been forced to discard it because I no longer have all the necessary info because DA2 and Asunder are outside of each other.

Modifié par Vit246, 09 juin 2013 - 01:17 .

[LobselVith8]

Mr.House wrote...

The people who caused the war was Lambert and the mages that voted to leave the chantry. The only person who had role in even starting it in DA2 was Anders because his actions sowed chaos and hadt he mage council shut down for awhile.

This thread just seems like anti chantry spewl, more so when Asunder shows us how the war truly starts.

The mages voted for their autonomy from the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order. Regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, the mages didn't declare war on the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars - they simply wanted to be independent from the two institutions.

The templars, on the other hand, decided to hunt down the mages. There's a stark difference between the two actions that were taken.

[billy the squid]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Its not just choosing her, she could have stepped in and stop her anytime, she had 6 years but she didn't. She didn't even stop petrice even when you warn her. She could have stopped 2 wars but she didn't. Maric would have stopped Loghian if he knew. Elthina Knew. 

No she couldn't. While she was supposedly Meredith's superior, in practical terms she didn't have the power to stop her. The amount of influence she had depended on how much Meredith cared to listen, which she was not. 

Elthina didn't even try to stop Meredith. Giving "advice" and giving orders are two very different things, after all, and Elthina was legally Meredith's superior in the Chantry.

Pfffft. So what? If she could give orders, then the Seekers wouldn't be needed as an oversight body within the Templar Order.

The Chantry is in control as long as the Templars and Seekers wish to be bound by the Nevarran accords. As seen, once they decide that they are broken there's nothing the Chantry can do to stop them. They are the Inquisition, and the militant arm of the Chantry, without them, what does the Chantry actually have to enforce it's will? Very little.

[Mr.House]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The people who caused the war was Lambert and the mages that voted to leave the chantry. The only person who had role in even starting it in DA2 was Anders because his actions sowed chaos and hadt he mage council shut down for awhile.

This thread just seems like anti chantry spewl, more so when Asunder shows us how the war truly starts.

The mages voted for their autonomy from the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order. Regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, the mages didn't declare war on the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars - they simply wanted to be independent from the two institutions.

The templars, on the other hand, decided to hunt down the mages. There's a stark difference between the two actions that were taken.

Uh no. Once the mages left and the Divine helped the mages, Lambert gave the orders to disband from the chantry because the treaty was broken and the mages where planning to strike back. The mages who voted and Lambert started the war. You can beleive the mages are innocent butterflies, but that does not change facts.

Modifié par Mr.House, 09 juin 2013 - 01:18 .

[billy the squid]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The people who caused the war was Lambert and the mages that voted to leave the chantry. The only person who had role in even starting it in DA2 was Anders because his actions sowed chaos and hadt he mage council shut down for awhile.

This thread just seems like anti chantry spewl, more so when Asunder shows us how the war truly starts.

The mages voted for their autonomy from the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order. Regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, the mages didn't declare war on the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars - they simply wanted to be independent from the two institutions.

The templars, on the other hand, decided to hunt down the mages. There's a stark difference between the two actions that were taken.

Yep, no assassination attempts, no blood magic, no murder of tranquil, no manipulation of other mages to move against the Templars, no outright violence, no using the meeting about conditions to discuss rebelling.

They declared war by seceding from the Chantry by using those means. They were anything but peaceful. How did they not expect the Templars to act with force.

[LobselVith8]

billy the squid wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elthina didn't even try to stop Meredith. Giving "advice" and giving orders are two very different things, after all, and Elthina was legally Meredith's superior in the Chantry. 

Pfffft. So what? If she could give orders, then the Seekers wouldn't be needed as an oversight body within the Templar Order.

Elthina is Meredith's superior. As we see in the scene where she gives orders to the templars to "escort" Orsino back gently, she can clearly give commands to the members of the Order of Templars.

billy the squid wrote...

The Chantry is in control as long as the Templars and Seekers wish to be bound by the Nevarran accords. As seen, once they decide that they are broken there's nothing the Chantry can do to stop them. They are the Inquisition, and the militant arm of the Chantry, without them, what does the Chantry actually have to enforce it's will? Very little.

As Alistair points out when this subject is brought up in Origins, their monopoly on lyrium.

[TK514]

Well, Elthina is clearly doing something, because if you support the Templars in the Act 3 opening, Meredith calls Hawke into her office to ask for help in finding enough proof to allow her to convince the Grand Cleric to let her take action. It's also just as clear that Meredith is only going to listen to Elthina so far, since when you come up with nothing implicating Orsino, she says she'll find another way.

It's also somewhat unclear if she allowed the Qunari to assassinate Petrice, since she did not react with even the slightest bit of surprise, either to the act or to the Qunari stepping into plain sight after committing it.

In the end, I personally think she was just poorly implemented. She feels incomplete, as though there was supposed to be more and it didn't make it into the game.

[Boycott Bioware]

3 years without electing a Viscount is something not right...there is a conspiracy...how the town run without a Viscount?

We know Meredith is going to far, she even can ordering a foreign King like she's the boss, funny isn't it? When King Alistair visit Kirkwal, Meredith can bad talk to Alistair, come on that guy is a King of a country, Meredith is just a Knight Commander of Templar

We can see how Gregoir bow to King Alistair in Mage Origin Ultimate Sacrifice ending of DA:O when Alistair give some freedom to Circle Tower

[billy the squid]

LobselVith8 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elthina didn't even try to stop Meredith. Giving "advice" and giving orders are two very different things, after all, and Elthina was legally Meredith's superior in the Chantry. 

Pfffft. So what? If she could give orders, then the Seekers wouldn't be needed as an oversight body within the Templar Order.

Elthina is Meredith's superior. As we see in the scene where she gives orders to the templars to "escort" Orsino back gently, she can clearly give commands to the members of the Order of Templars.

billy the squid wrote...

The Chantry is in control as long as the Templars and Seekers wish to be bound by the Nevarran accords. As seen, once they decide that they are broken there's nothing the Chantry can do to stop them. They are the Inquisition, and the militant arm of the Chantry, without them, what does the Chantry actually have to enforce it's will? Very little.

As Alistair points out when this subject is brought up in Origins, their monopoly on lyrium.

Ordering a Templar is the same as Ordering a Knight Commander of an entire army is it?

In that it's supported by funds from Andrastian nobles, which allows the Chantry to buy Lyrium from the Dwarves. The Dwarves, being dwarves are going to trade with anyone who can provide them with what they want. If the Templars can, then there's no reason why the dwarves wouldn't supply the Templars directly, they aren't concerned for the squabbling on the surface. There goes the Chantry's leverage.

[billy the squid]

Qistina wrote...

3 years without electing a Viscount is something not right...there is a conspiracy...how the town run without a Viscount?

We know Meredith is going to far, she even can ordering a foreign King like she's the boss, funny isn't it? When King Alistair visit Kirkwal, Meredith can bad talk to Alistair, come on that guy is a King of a country, Meredith is just a Knight Commander of Templar

We can see how Gregoir bow to King Alistair in Mage Origin Ultimate Sacrifice ending of DA:O when Alistair give some freedom to Circle Tower

Kirkwall is under Templar control. The previous viscount was a puppet.

The Knight Commanders only have to acknowledge the King of a country if they wish. They have almost complete autonomy from the Kingdom itself, although it's good to have decent relations with the ruler of the state one is situated in. Gregor is not Meredith, that much s clear.

[LobselVith8]

billy the squid wrote...

Ordering a Templar is the same as Ordering a Knight Commander of an entire army is it?

You're aware of the fact that Meredith is Elthina's subordinate, right? As the codex notes: "People frequently turn to her to mediate disputes-particularly those involving the powerful Templar Order, over whom she holds authority as the Chantry's ranking representative."

billy the squid wrote...

In that it's supported by funds from Andrastian nobles, which allows the Chantry to buy Lyrium from the Dwarves. The Dwarves, being dwarves are going to trade with anyone who can provide them with what they want. If the Templars can, then there's no reason why the dwarves wouldn't supply the Templars directly, they aren't concerned for the squabbling on the surface. There goes the Chantry's leverage. 

The dwarves traded exclusively with the Chantry of Andraste, which is why they had a monopoly on lyrium for centuries, outside of the illegal lyrium trade. If it was as simple as you claim, the Chantry wouldn't have a monopoly on lyrium to begin with. As we know from the codex: "What processed lyrium is sold on the surface goes only to the Chantry, who strictly control the supply. From the Chantry, it is dispensed both to the templars, who make use of it in tracking and fighting maleficarum, and to the Circle."

Modifié par LobselVith8, 09 juin 2013 - 01:42 .

[AshenShug4r]

I agree, she effectively started it through sheer incompetence. Not a single f*ck was given when Anders blew up that damn chantry.

[Nefla]

I don't get why people hate Elthina but not the Viscount. They are both old, stuck in the middle of a struggle much bigger than them, and both passive and ineffective.

[iOnlySignIn]

Meredith is Elthina's bff, yes.

Elthina lets Meredith do all the dirty work so that she can maintain her (laughably false) facade of neutrality and kindness which is the source of her popularity. It's the classic Good Cop (Elthina) - Bad Cop (Meredith) combo. She did nothing to stop Meredith's abuse of power because Meredith is acting on her behalf - Meredith's power is Elthina's power. They are in reality one and the same, and hence both must go, like Anders had concluded.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 09 juin 2013 - 01:49 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So Sebastian was lying to Aveline when he said that Elthina was worried about Meredith?

Anders concluded that Elthina could have brought around a peaceful resolution to the crisis in Kirkwall so he assassinated her to make sure there was a war. He said as much himself:

"I removed the chance of compromise, because there is no compromise!"

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 juin 2013 - 01:51 .

[Reaverwind]

Qistina wrote...

3 years without electing a Viscount is something not right...there is a conspiracy...how the town run without a Viscount?

We know Meredith is going to far, she even can ordering a foreign King like she's the boss, funny isn't it? When King Alistair visit Kirkwal, Meredith can bad talk to Alistair, come on that guy is a King of a country, Meredith is just a Knight Commander of Templar

We can see how Gregoir bow to King Alistair in Mage Origin Ultimate Sacrifice ending of DA:O when Alistair give some freedom to Circle Tower

What conspiracy? DA2 establishes the fact that the Templars hold most, if not all, the power in Kirkwall. The nobles simply failed to challenge Meredith (although I do have to wonder why the Crows weren't called in).

Meredith should have indeed been called out on her lack of respect toward the ruler of another nation. Perhaps Bioware was trying to illustrate how far gone she was with that diplomatic blunder.

As for the epilogue slide - Bioware has pretty much hand-waved them away. However, I'd like to point out that Greagoir shows better diplomatic acumen. The funeral of the Hero of Fereldan is not the time nor place to start an argument with the King / Queen.