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[NoForgiveness]

I wouldn't necessarily say its her fault but she certainly never tried to make anything better for the mages or the Templars. Anders calls her a doddering old fool and says that Kirkwall deserves better and he was right, she had the power to stop the Templars and mages and she does nothing.

[iOnlySignIn]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So Sebastian was lying to Aveline when he said that Elthina was worried about Meredith?

No, Sebastian was not lying to Aveline or Hawke. Elthina was lying to Sebastian. She's never worried about Meredith - she has no reasons to. 

Anders concluded that Elthina could have brought around a peaceful resolution to the crisis in Kirkwall so he assassinated her to make sure there was a war. He said as much himself:

"I removed the chance of compromise, because there is no compromise!"

There is a subtle difference there which you failed to notice.

What Anders means is that compromise is theoretically possible before Elthina was removed. That does not mean Elthina was going to personally initiate such a compromise - she has three years to do it, but did not, for obvious reasons. But as long as she's alive, someone like Hawke could persuade her (with Blood Magic, for example).

Anders could have blown up an empty Chantry building without Elthina in it, and it would have removed the chance of compromise just as well. I hope you (or your interpretation of Anders) are not going to conclude that an inanimate church building made mostly of stone is going to miraculously speak up and bring around a peaceful resolution.

And that is what Elthina is. She is as likely to dissuade Meredith from power as a block of solid marble.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 09 juin 2013 - 02:02 .

[Reaverwind]

MR_PN wrote...

I wouldn't necessarily say its her fault but she certainly never tried to make anything better for the mages or the Templars. Anders calls her a doddering old fool and says that Kirkwall deserves better and he was right, she had the power to stop the Templars and mages and she does nothing.

Bah, she's part of a religious organisation that is tied far too closely to Orlesian Imperial interests. That Chantry was bound to fall apart, even without the "help" of the Mage-Templar war.

[Boycott Bioware]

Reaverwind wrote...
What conspiracy? DA2 establishes the fact that the Templars hold most, if not all, the power in Kirkwall. The nobles simply failed to challenge Meredith (although I do have to wonder why the Crows weren't called in).

Templar have no power at all, it is only that a new Viscount must have Templar approval, it is to ensure that the Viscount is not a Mage or Blood Mage and supporting Chantry policy

Templar have no political power, but yet for 3 years Templar taking over Kirkwal? There is a conspiracy.

They want war

[Jedi Master of Orion]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So Sebastian was lying to Aveline when he said that Elthina was worried about Meredith?

No, Sebastian was not lying to Aveline or Hawke. Elthina was lying to Sebastian. She's never worried about Meredith - she has no reasons to. 

Anders concluded that Elthina could have brought around a peaceful resolution to the crisis in Kirkwall so he assassinated her to make sure there was a war. He said as much himself:

"I removed the chance of compromise, because there is no compromise!"

There is a subtle difference there which you failed to notice.

What Anders means is that compromise is theoretically possible before Elthina was removed. That does not mean Elthina was going to personally initiate such a compromise - she has three years to do it, but did not, for obvious reasons. But as long as she's alive, someone like Hawke could persuade her (with Blood Magic, for example).

Anders could have blown up an empty Chantry building without Elthina in it, and it would have removed the chance of compromise just as well. I hope you (or your interpretation of Anders) are not going to conclude that an inanimate church building made mostly of stone is going to miraculously speak up and bring around a peaceful resolution.

And that is what Elthina is. She is as likely to dissuade Meredith from power as a block of solid marble.

I don't think so. Anders needed to provoke a reaction from Krikwall in general and fron Meredith in particular, killing the beloved Grand Cleric and freind of the Knight Commander was what he needed to get Meredith to try to murder all the mages so they would fight back and free themselves. If there had been no casualties there wouldn't have been the desired effect. Especially since Elthina strives to avoid conflict.

[billy the squid]

LobselVith8 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Ordering a Templar is the same as Ordering a Knight Commander of an entire army is it?

You're aware of the fact that Meredith is Elthina's subordinate, right? As the codex notes: "People frequently turn to her to mediate disputes-particularly those involving the powerful Templar Order, over whom she holds authority as the Chantry's ranking representative."

billy the squid wrote...

In that it's supported by funds from Andrastian nobles, which allows the Chantry to buy Lyrium from the Dwarves. The Dwarves, being dwarves are going to trade with anyone who can provide them with what they want. If the Templars can, then there's no reason why the dwarves wouldn't supply the Templars directly, they aren't concerned for the squabbling on the surface. There goes the Chantry's leverage. 

The dwarves traded exclusively with the Chantry of Andraste, which is why they had a monopoly on lyrium for centuries, outside of the illegal lyrium trade. If it was as simple as you claim, the Chantry wouldn't have a monopoly on lyrium to begin with. As we know from the codex: "What processed lyrium is sold on the surface goes only to the Chantry, who strictly control the supply. From the Chantry, it is dispensed both to the templars, who make use of it in tracking and fighting maleficarum, and to the Circle."

Again, then why does the Seeker order exist? Repeating that she is a superior means nothing when there exists an oversight body to judge Templars. It's there for precisely that reason, the Chantry's ranking representative is going to have little control over a Knight Commander with hundreds of Templers under their command simply by saying "I have authority" it doesn't mean the Templars take any notice of it.

The Chantry controls the Circle's funds, and it controls the Templars. No one else is going to want Lyrium, so they have a de facto monopoly. Now the circles have seceded and the Templars voided the Nevarra accords there is nothig stopping the Templars and mages pushing to control the Lyrium supply directly. What's the Chantry going to do? Stop the mages with the Templars? Stop the Templars with mages?

Again, saying they can only deal with the Chantry means nothing when the Chantry has no means to actually enforce it.

[iOnlySignIn]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think so.

OK.

Especially since Elthina strives to avoid conflict.

lol

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Just ignoring what I said then? OK. If Meredith was just doing Elthina's bidding this whole time, why wait until after she was dead to invoke the Right of Annulment if she was just as likley to do it anyway with her around or not?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 juin 2013 - 03:19 .

[Angrywolves]

Not her fault.
The OP made a silly assertion.

[Plaintiff]

Elthina was a despicably lazy, neglectful moron at best or a scheming, cowardly bigot at worst.

That said, nobody and no single thing "started" the Mage-Templar war. It is the result of a thousand years of ongoing tension.

[duckley]

I think Elthina could have and arguably should have intervened more effectively. I believe that
her passivity contributed to the problems in Kirkwall. Having said that I do not believe she deserved be murdered by Anders.

[AtreiyaN7]

Elthina ended up being ineffectual, but she wasn't responsible for starting the war. The blame for that lies with nutty-as-a-fruitcake Meredith as far as I'm concerned. Oppression seems to inevitably lead to rebellion by the oppressed once they reach their breaking point - especially not a good situation when one of the oppressed happens to someone like Anders/Vengeance.

[dragonflight288]

In my mind, it's best to let the canon tell the story.

Mages convene with Divine's permission to investigate Rhys
Fiona starts off the meeting by trying to get the mages to declare independence
Lambert and the templars come in
Lambert demands all first enchanter return to their circles and give him authority over rhys
Fiona protests, saying they have the Divine's permission
Lambert says the Divine's word no longer matters
Lambert orders attack
First Enchanter tries to surrender and gets killed anyway
Mages realize they'll all be put to death and fight back....hard
mages who survive meet up and vote unanimously to declare their independence from the Chantry
Chantry decides to let them go and avoid conflict
Lambert and the Templars abandon the Chantry
Lambert and the Templars declare the Nevarran Accord to now be void, and declared war on the mages
Mages decide to fight back in self-defense.

[Lulupab]

I never said Elthina should take mages side or even the Templar's side for that matter. She should have branded Merdith a tyrant and ordered a new knight commander to be chosen, possibly cullen. I'm sure many templars would have liked the idea since they already turn on her and speak on her back. And EVERY SINGLE TEMPLAR in kirkwall turns on her at the end of act 3.

Modifié par Rassler, 09 juin 2013 - 07:34 .

[Will-o'-wisp]

Uhm, yeah, nice chantry/Elthina bashing thread...

I was about to give a longer answer, but I think other People have already pointed out that Elthina couldn't have done anything to prevent the later Events. I mean, just imagine Elthina trying to take Meredith's power away from her... think about it.

I imagine Meredith to go the "Clearly the Grand Cleric has fallen victim to the influence of Blood Mages!!"-route and pay Elthina a visit together with some of her most loyal templars who are capable of keeping their mouths shut. That woman was crazy and powerhungry. Nothing that Elthina could have done would have stopped her, She only kept the "peace" as long as possible by staying neutral.

[Sir JK]

Elthina's culpability in the entire conflict depends directly and completely on exactly what authority her position grants her over Meredith. The ultimate decision whether to invoke the Rite of Annulment lies with her and Meredith report to her. This fits, as she is the highest ranking chantry official in the city and thus herself answer to the Divine.

However, the Chantry is civilian but the templar order is military. Which means that Chantry and Templars are separate organisations, even if the latter answers to the former. Much like how ministries of defence are separate from the general staff in most IRL countries.
This is further muddled by the fact that knight-commander is the second highest rank in the templar order (possibly third-highest, if there's such a thing as the knights-divine). And as we all know... in the chain of command, orders are derived from the highest source, not from local civilians.
This would suggest that while Elthina is informed by what Meredith deems neccessary and can refuse the RoA, she cannot in fact command or even dismiss Meredith. A dismissal would have to recommended to the Divine, who then would have to order the highest ranking templar to arrange it. A massive bureaucratic loop that would take years and require mountains of evidence. And likely the purview of the Seekers.

And then there's political reality on top of that. What says that a Grand Cleric cannot be dismissed by the Divine? So if Elthina dismisses a "pro-order" templar like Meredith, what's stopping Lambert and his allies from putting pressure on the Divine herself to have Elthina replaced with a pro-templar Mother (somone like Petrice, perhaps) who then supports the reappointment of Meredith?
There's also a risk that Lambert, seeing he was perfectly willing to try to assassinate the Divine herself in 9:40, would have had Elthina killed if she made noise.

Let's also not forget that Meredith was appointed by seniority, not merit. She was the sole remaining high-ranking templar in the city after the former Viscount killed their leadership. She was not chosen by Elthina, she merely survived and ascended the position and her "appointment" was merely ceremony.

So was Elthina culpable? Perhaps, without knowing the exact details of how the Chantry and Templar orders are organised and the exact letter of Chantry law, it's difficult to say whether her approach and diplomacy was concious inaction or merely the limits of her authority.
If the former, then yes, she's absolutely to blame. If the latter, then she would only have made the situation worse if she sided openly with the mages.

As always with people in power, there's the paradox that the more power they hold the less freedom they have.

[Lulupab]

Poison93 wrote...

Uhm, yeah, nice chantry/Elthina bashing thread...

I was about to give a longer answer, but I think other People have already pointed out that Elthina couldn't have done anything to prevent the later Events. I mean, just imagine Elthina trying to take Meredith's power away from her... think about it.

I imagine Meredith to go the "Clearly the Grand Cleric has fallen victim to the influence of Blood Mages!!"-route and pay Elthina a visit together with some of her most loyal templars who are capable of keeping their mouths shut. That woman was crazy and powerhungry. Nothing that Elthina could have done would have stopped her, She only kept the "peace" as long as possible by staying neutral.

Elthina has Templars royal to her as well. Meredit has to go over Sebastian's corpse in order to touch Elthina.

[Will-o'-wisp]

Rassler wrote...

Poison93 wrote...

Uhm, yeah, nice chantry/Elthina bashing thread...

I was about to give a longer answer, but I think other People have already pointed out that Elthina couldn't have done anything to prevent the later Events. I mean, just imagine Elthina trying to take Meredith's power away from her... think about it.

I imagine Meredith to go the "Clearly the Grand Cleric has fallen victim to the influence of Blood Mages!!"-route and pay Elthina a visit together with some of her most loyal templars who are capable of keeping their mouths shut. That woman was crazy and powerhungry. Nothing that Elthina could have done would have stopped her, She only kept the "peace" as long as possible by staying neutral.

Elthina has Templars royal to her as well. Meredit has to go over Sebastian's corpse in order to touch Elthina.

Don't see a Problem there. Everyone defending Elthina when Merdith arrives there was probably a blood mage Minion as well or tricked into believing he/she was defending the true Elthina - Meredith had no other choice than killing them as well. I don't think many People would dare to speak up to Meredith if she explains the Events like this.

Of course that's just a hypothetical Situation but eventually People would realize that Meredith has the greater power and that the templars obey her, not Elthina - may it be out of loyalty or fear.

[Herr Uhl]

Rassler wrote...

Elthina has Templars royal to her as well. Meredit has to go over Sebastian's corpse in order to touch Elthina.

He is not a templar. He is arguably royal though.

[billy the squid]

dragonflight288 wrote...

In my mind, it's best to let the canon tell the story.

Assassination attempt by Libertarian faction of Mages using blood magic on the Divine
Mages convene with Divine's permission to investigate Rhys
Lambert learns of various experiments to reverse Tranquility resulting in massive demon incurssions.
Conclave called do discuss Mage conditions withing the Circle, which is then hijacked by the Libertarians
Fiona starts off the meeting by trying to get the mages to declare independence
Lambert and the templars come in
Lambert discovers the planted murder weapon in Rhys' quarters, planted there by the Libertareans to turn the rest against the Templars
Lambert demands all first enchanter return to their circles and give him authority over rhys
Fiona protests, saying they have the Divine's permission
The Divine's permission was to discuss the conditions in the Circle and not open rebellion
Lambert says the Divine's word no longer matters after breaking the Accords and distracting Lambert.
Mages resist Templar attempts to arrest Rhys
Lambert orders attack
First Enchanter tries to surrender and gets killed anyway after resisting.
Mages realize they'll all be put to death be imprisioned, which they are and fight back....hard
mages who survive after escaping imprisonment meet up and vote unanimously to declare their independence from the Chantry
Chantry decides to let them go and avoid conflict
Lambert and the Templars abandon the Chantry
Lambert and the Templars declare the Nevarran Accord to now be void, and declared war on the mages reverting to their origins ad the Inquisition.
Mages decide to fight back in self-defense.

You forgot these bits, conveniently. If you want to tell the cannon, do it properly, and without bias.

Modifié par billy the squid, 09 juin 2013 - 11:45 .

[Xilizhra]

You forgot these bits, conveniently. If you want to tell the cannon, do it properly, and without bias.

Pot, kettle, etc.

Also, the templars won't be the Inquisition in the coming game.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

You forgot these bits, conveniently. If you want to tell the cannon, do it properly, and without bias.

Pot, kettle, etc.

Also, the templars won't be the Inquisition in the coming game.

Pffft. Please. Look at the order of things. It's detailing the events. If you're going to detail the order of events then list them all. Not just the ones which show your prefrence in a good light. 

They may not be the Inquisition All that Gaider has said is that the Inquisition may or may not rise again in DA3. And considering the Templars and Seekers were the Inquisition before the Nevarra Accords were put in place, take from that what you will. 

[d-boy15]

Rassler wrote...

Poison93 wrote...

Uhm, yeah, nice chantry/Elthina bashing thread...

I was about to give a longer answer, but I think other People have already pointed out that Elthina couldn't have done anything to prevent the later Events. I mean, just imagine Elthina trying to take Meredith's power away from her... think about it.

I imagine Meredith to go the "Clearly the Grand Cleric has fallen victim to the influence of Blood Mages!!"-route and pay Elthina a visit together with some of her most loyal templars who are capable of keeping their mouths shut. That woman was crazy and powerhungry. Nothing that Elthina could have done would have stopped her, She only kept the "peace" as long as possible by staying neutral.

Elthina has Templars royal to her as well. Meredit has to go over Sebastian's corpse in order to touch Elthina.

He's not a Templar, he's a brother and he's just one man.

be fair a little, do you really think that guy had a chance against Meredith? 

Modifié par d-boy15, 09 juin 2013 - 12:06 .

[Lulupab]

d-boy15 wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Poison93 wrote...

Uhm, yeah, nice chantry/Elthina bashing thread...

I was about to give a longer answer, but I think other People have already pointed out that Elthina couldn't have done anything to prevent the later Events. I mean, just imagine Elthina trying to take Meredith's power away from her... think about it.

I imagine Meredith to go the "Clearly the Grand Cleric has fallen victim to the influence of Blood Mages!!"-route and pay Elthina a visit together with some of her most loyal templars who are capable of keeping their mouths shut. That woman was crazy and powerhungry. Nothing that Elthina could have done would have stopped her, She only kept the "peace" as long as possible by staying neutral.

Elthina has Templars royal to her as well. Meredit has to go over Sebastian's corpse in order to touch Elthina.

He's not a Templar, he's a brother and he's just one man.

be fair a little, do you really think that guy had a chance against Meredith? 

Its all theory since it never happened. He could have attacked kirkwall with starkhaven army. Also in the scene where the chantry is destroyed. inside of it is shown for a few seconds, Grand cleric is inside with dozens of Templars. Why would they be there with her? Meredith has lost loyalty of at least half of the order and in the act of act 3 every single Templar turns on her, litetally every single one.

[LobselVith8]

billy the squid wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Ordering a Templar is the same as Ordering a Knight Commander of an entire army is it?

You're aware of the fact that Meredith is Elthina's subordinate, right? As the codex notes: "People frequently turn to her to mediate disputes-particularly those involving the powerful Templar Order, over whom she holds authority as the Chantry's ranking representative."

billy the squid wrote...

In that it's supported by funds from Andrastian nobles, which allows the Chantry to buy Lyrium from the Dwarves. The Dwarves, being dwarves are going to trade with anyone who can provide them with what they want. If the Templars can, then there's no reason why the dwarves wouldn't supply the Templars directly, they aren't concerned for the squabbling on the surface. There goes the Chantry's leverage. 

The dwarves traded exclusively with the Chantry of Andraste, which is why they had a monopoly on lyrium for centuries, outside of the illegal lyrium trade. If it was as simple as you claim, the Chantry wouldn't have a monopoly on lyrium to begin with. As we know from the codex: "What processed lyrium is sold on the surface goes only to the Chantry, who strictly control the supply. From the Chantry, it is dispensed both to the templars, who make use of it in tracking and fighting maleficarum, and to the Circle." 

Again, then why does the Seeker order exist? Repeating that she is a superior means nothing when there exists an oversight body to judge Templars. It's there for precisely that reason, the Chantry's ranking representative is going to have little control over a Knight Commander with hundreds of Templers under their command simply by saying "I have authority" it doesn't mean the Templars take any notice of it.

Bringing up the Seekers of Truth doesn't dismiss the fact that Grand Cleric Elthina is Meredith's superior, and her own codex even addresses that the leeway she gives Meredith is the reason for the criticism of Elthina as the highest ranking member of the Chantry in the region, although the opinions aren't publicly voiced because she is very popular among the people.

billy the squid wrote...

The Chantry controls the Circle's funds, and it controls the Templars. No one else is going to want Lyrium, so they have a de facto monopoly. Now the circles have seceded and the Templars voided the Nevarra accords there is nothig stopping the Templars and mages pushing to control the Lyrium supply directly. What's the Chantry going to do? Stop the mages with the Templars? Stop the Templars with mages?

Considering Orzammar sells only a fraction of their lyrium to the surface, it's possible the dwarves may decide to simply wait and see who the victor is in all of this. Nothing is certain, and the King certainly isn't in a position of capitulating to anyone: not the templars or the mages.

billy the squid wrote...

Again, saying they can only deal with the Chantry means nothing when the Chantry has no means to actually enforce it. 

The dwarves used to deal with Tevinter, then they dealt with the Andrastian Chantry, and it's possible they could deal with someone new now. Or they could deal with none of the parties involved until the Mage-Templar War reaches a conclusion, since the dwarves are the ones who mine and control the lyrium.