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[billy the squid]

LobselVith8 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Ordering a Templar is the same as Ordering a Knight Commander of an entire army is it?

You're aware of the fact that Meredith is Elthina's subordinate, right? As the codex notes: "People frequently turn to her to mediate disputes-particularly those involving the powerful Templar Order, over whom she holds authority as the Chantry's ranking representative."

billy the squid wrote...

In that it's supported by funds from Andrastian nobles, which allows the Chantry to buy Lyrium from the Dwarves. The Dwarves, being dwarves are going to trade with anyone who can provide them with what they want. If the Templars can, then there's no reason why the dwarves wouldn't supply the Templars directly, they aren't concerned for the squabbling on the surface. There goes the Chantry's leverage. 

The dwarves traded exclusively with the Chantry of Andraste, which is why they had a monopoly on lyrium for centuries, outside of the illegal lyrium trade. If it was as simple as you claim, the Chantry wouldn't have a monopoly on lyrium to begin with. As we know from the codex: "What processed lyrium is sold on the surface goes only to the Chantry, who strictly control the supply. From the Chantry, it is dispensed both to the templars, who make use of it in tracking and fighting maleficarum, and to the Circle." 

Again, then why does the Seeker order exist? Repeating that she is a superior means nothing when there exists an oversight body to judge Templars. It's there for precisely that reason, the Chantry's ranking representative is going to have little control over a Knight Commander with hundreds of Templers under their command simply by saying "I have authority" it doesn't mean the Templars take any notice of it.

Bringing up the Seekers of Truth doesn't dismiss the fact that Grand Cleric Elthina is Meredith's superior, and her own codex even addresses that the leeway she gives Meredith is the reason for the criticism of Elthina as the highest ranking member of the Chantry in the region, although the opinions aren't publicly voiced because she is very popular among the people.

billy the squid wrote...

The Chantry controls the Circle's funds, and it controls the Templars. No one else is going to want Lyrium, so they have a de facto monopoly. Now the circles have seceded and the Templars voided the Nevarra accords there is nothig stopping the Templars and mages pushing to control the Lyrium supply directly. What's the Chantry going to do? Stop the mages with the Templars? Stop the Templars with mages?

Considering Orzammar sells only a fraction of their lyrium to the surface, it's possible the dwarves may decide to simply wait and see who the victor is in all of this. Nothing is certain, and the King certainly isn't in a position of capitulating to anyone: not the templars or the mages.

billy the squid wrote...

Again, saying they can only deal with the Chantry means nothing when the Chantry has no means to actually enforce it. 

The dwarves used to deal with Tevinter, then they dealt with the Andrastian Chantry, and it's possible they could deal with someone new now. Or they could deal with none of the parties involved until the Mage-Templar War reaches a conclusion, since the dwarves are the ones who mine and control the lyrium.

1) repeating that she is her superior still mean anything. Hypothetically Ethina demands Meredith step down, she says no. Who's going  to make her? You seem to be under this illusion that being someone's superior actually means a damn thing, if they have no way of enforcing it. The only way to enforce it is using the Seekers, who are part of the Templars and outrank them. So it does in fact call into question everything that you said.

2) It's quite possible they could wait. But considering the Dwarves continue to trade with the Tevinter Imperium, despite the seperation of the Chantry in Orlais and Tevinter I doubt it. What the Dwarves want in exchange for the Lyrium will be the determaning factor, and who can supply it. The Dwarves are not concerned for the petty squabbling on the surface, until it affects them, they have the Spawn to deal with. If the Templars or Mages can provide what they need, then it's almost certain they'll deal with them.

[Xilizhra]

1) repeating that she is her superior still mean anything. Hypothetically Ethina demands Meredith step down, she says no. Who's going to make her? You seem to be under this illusion that being someone's superior actually means a damn thing, if they have no way of enforcing it. The only way to enforce it is using the Seekers, who are part of the Templars and outrank them. So it does in fact call into question everything that you said.

Yes, if only there was a Seeker operating in Kirkwall right when the problem started to become truly acute.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

1) repeating that she is her superior still mean anything. Hypothetically Ethina demands Meredith step down, she says no. Who's going to make her? You seem to be under this illusion that being someone's superior actually means a damn thing, if they have no way of enforcing it. The only way to enforce it is using the Seekers, who are part of the Templars and outrank them. So it does in fact call into question everything that you said.

Yes, if only there was a Seeker operating in Kirkwall right when the problem started to become truly acute.

If a Seeker with the authority of the Templar Order and instructions to remove Meredith was about then yes, as refusing would be defiance of a superior officer's orders and the inevitable would be the Templars of Kirkwall being attacked by the other Tempars. The threat of force tends to be the important bit.

[Xilizhra]

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

1) repeating that she is her superior still mean anything. Hypothetically Ethina demands Meredith step down, she says no. Who's going to make her? You seem to be under this illusion that being someone's superior actually means a damn thing, if they have no way of enforcing it. The only way to enforce it is using the Seekers, who are part of the Templars and outrank them. So it does in fact call into question everything that you said.

Yes, if only there was a Seeker operating in Kirkwall right when the problem started to become truly acute.

If a Seeker with the authority of the Templar Order and instructions to remove Meredith was about then yes, as refusing would be defiance of a superior officer's orders and the inevitable would be the Templars of Kirkwall being attacked by the other Tempars. The threat of force tends to be the important bit.

Quite so, and Elthina might have contacted the one who was there with a request for help in bringing down Meredith, instead of saying that everything was fine.

[d-boy15]

Rassler wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Poison93 wrote...

Uhm, yeah, nice chantry/Elthina bashing thread...

I was about to give a longer answer, but I think other People have already pointed out that Elthina couldn't have done anything to prevent the later Events. I mean, just imagine Elthina trying to take Meredith's power away from her... think about it.

I imagine Meredith to go the "Clearly the Grand Cleric has fallen victim to the influence of Blood Mages!!"-route and pay Elthina a visit together with some of her most loyal templars who are capable of keeping their mouths shut. That woman was crazy and powerhungry. Nothing that Elthina could have done would have stopped her, She only kept the "peace" as long as possible by staying neutral.

Elthina has Templars royal to her as well. Meredit has to go over Sebastian's corpse in order to touch Elthina.

He's not a Templar, he's a brother and he's just one man.

be fair a little, do you really think that guy had a chance against Meredith? 

Its all theory since it never happened. He could have attacked kirkwall with starkhaven army. Also in the scene where the chantry is destroyed. inside of it is shown for a few seconds, Grand cleric is inside with dozens of Templars. Why would they be there with her? Meredith has lost loyalty of at least half of the order and in the act of act 3 every single Templar turns on her, litetally every single one.

1. He could have attacked kirkwall with starkhaven army.

How? At that  point he doesn't even know he should come back to claim his throne or serve the chantry.
Not to mention that he didn't even start anything but talking.

2.Grand cleric is inside with dozens of Templars.

Would that really strange? Meredith might refuse to listen to Elthina advice but she still respect her and in that
situation it would be reasonable if Meredith send her Templar to guarding Elthina. 

Even those Templar are her men, they just a few. How they can stand a chance against  the whole army at the
gallow? 

3. Meredith has lost loyalty of at least half of the order and in the act of act 3 every single Templar turns on her, litetally every single one. 

Meredith lost only some of her men, most of them put down after Hawke interfere with their conspiracy. The
reason all Templar turn against Meredith in final battle because she start to get really crazy and Cpt.Cullen
relieve her.

Modifié par d-boy15, 10 juin 2013 - 01:45 .

[garrusfan1]

she was not going to do anything but it wasn't her fault. that would be like blaming switzerland for not stopping a war in another country even though they could have.the grand cleric should have done more and the way she did nothing with patrice even though it was obvious was annoying. but meredith was to blame for making the bomb but anders used the bomb. basically meredith and anders started it. the grand cleric could have stopped it maybe but she wouldn't be allowed to since she has to side with templars over mages no matter what when it comes to the chantry. she could have made meredith let someone be vicount. also remember that the templars had an unusual amount of power in kirkwall.

[Solmanian]

Typical. "They made us kill them! Anyone who doesn't agree with my opinions is making me kill him!".

[d-boy15]

Funny thing is you pro-mage guys seem to forget about Anders cause completely.

He didn't want to throw Meredith out, He want to set the Mage free from the circle by drag them
in to the war. So, even Elthina choosing side and requested a new Knight Commander or a help
from Seeker. Anders probably blow her up anyway if she didn't help him in his cause.

Also, respected and power is not the same thing...

I hate to use this example but if we go by OP logic, US is to blamed on 9/11 not Bin Laden.

Modifié par d-boy15, 09 juin 2013 - 05:40 .

[EcreipRellim]

Anders started the war in all honesty but it's a good thing he did otherwise chantry oppression would have just continued

[Gorguz]

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

1) repeating that she is her superior still mean anything. Hypothetically Ethina demands Meredith step down, she says no. Who's going to make her? You seem to be under this illusion that being someone's superior actually means a damn thing, if they have no way of enforcing it. The only way to enforce it is using the Seekers, who are part of the Templars and outrank them. So it does in fact call into question everything that you said.

Yes, if only there was a Seeker operating in Kirkwall right when the problem started to become truly acute.

If a Seeker with the authority of the Templar Order and instructions to remove Meredith was about then yes, as refusing would be defiance of a superior officer's orders and the inevitable would be the Templars of Kirkwall being attacked by the other Tempars. The threat of force tends to be the important bit.

Quite so, and Elthina might have contacted the one who was there with a request for help in bringing down Meredith, instead of saying that everything was fine.

This. Elthina could depose Meredith without problems. She didn't do so because she didn't want to. She may be a naive one, but the crimes of Meredith are her crimes nontheless. Justice forces Anders to do extreme things only when the abuses are intollerable, otherwise he stays quiet. So yes, Elthina started the war.

[Zanallen]

Anders started the war. That was the whole point of him blowing up the Chantry to begin with, to force everyone's hands with a situation that couldn't be ignored or handled without bloodshed.

[Saberchic]

Anders did not start the war; it was already silently going on with the actions of the Meredith and the templars and the inaction (or consent) of Elthina.

What Anders did was make it so that people could no longer ignore the problem, which is exactly what Elthina was doing. I'm sure she meant well, but she was put in a position of great importance, and instead she refuses to do anything about the brewing trouble. She has recourse if Meredith doesn't fall in line; she just doesn't use it.

[addiction21]

Saberchic wrote...

Anders did not start the war; it was already silently going on with the actions of the Meredith and the templars and the inaction (or consent) of Elthina.

Ummmm, no there was no war going on before Anders action. Try and rationalize it all you want but there was no war. You cant have a war with just one party.

[K_Tabris]

Zanallen wrote...

Anders started the war. That was the whole point of him blowing up the Chantry to begin with, to force everyone's hands with a situation that couldn't be ignored or handled without bloodshed.

The bombing of the chantry was a catalyst, not the cause. The cause of the war can't be boiled down to a simple "It was this", or "It was that"; it was a combination of factors, such as Elthina's inactivity, overzealous Templar control, apostate fears, and ever-increasing tensions between all factions involved. 

[PlasmaCheese]

Everyone in a position of power in Kirkwall started the war. Terrible, terrible leaders.

Too bad Anders couldn't burn the place to he ground. Heck, too bad the Qunari didn't.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, if only there was a Seeker operating in Kirkwall right when the problem started to become truly acute.

At what point in this story does Lambert go "LOL, No," at the idea of replacing Meredith with a malleable pro-mage KN in Kirkwall at Elthina's behest? 

[In Exile]

Saberchic wrote...
What Anders did was make it so that people could no longer ignore the problem, which is exactly what Elthina was doing. I'm sure she meant well, but she was put in a position of great importance, and instead she refuses to do anything about the brewing trouble. She has recourse if Meredith doesn't fall in line; she just doesn't use it.

Anders didn't want "people" to stop ignoring the problem. Anders wanted the Kirkwall Circle massacred (in whole or part) for something that wasn't their fault to prove to the other mages that they had to fight the templars. 

The plan was alwasy to goad Meredith into the ROA, on the basis of something the mages didn't do. 

[Lulupab]

In Exile wrote...

Saberchic wrote...
What Anders did was make it so that people could no longer ignore the problem, which is exactly what Elthina was doing. I'm sure she meant well, but she was put in a position of great importance, and instead she refuses to do anything about the brewing trouble. She has recourse if Meredith doesn't fall in line; she just doesn't use it.

Anders didn't want "people" to stop ignoring the problem. Anders wanted the Kirkwall Circle massacred (in whole or part) for something that wasn't their fault to prove to the other mages that they had to fight the templars. 

The plan was alwasy to goad Meredith into the ROA, on the basis of something the mages didn't do. 

nope totally wrong. What if a mundane destroyed the chantry? Would they kill every citizens? Anders also wanted to show that actions 1 mage condems all of them even if that mage is not even from the circle. There is an obvious discrimiantion here, they see all mages as monsters and think of them as one. Meredith could have easily ordered Anders's excution. but she ordered all mages to be annuled. She doesn't even care if you let Anders live.

Modifié par Rassler, 09 juin 2013 - 10:35 .

[BlazingSpeed]

Xilizhra wrote...

Elthina was either a colossal fool or outright using Meredith as a scapegoat while actively working to tighten the Chantry's grip over Kirkwall. I wouldn't be surprised if she approved of Petrice's actions and then let her die when she was no longer useful, either.

That would be one hell of a twist...but how would one find out Elthina's true motives?

Not all of us have read or the desire to read external sources of
info outside of the game especially when that kind of info should be in
the game in the first place.

I used to have an opinion about
this, but I've been forced to discard it because I no longer have all
the necessary info because DA2 and Asunder are outside of each other.

Yeah, that sucks big time at least The Witcher games storylines start after all of the books and are merely farther exploring the lore from within those books...

Modifié par BlazingSpeed, 10 juin 2013 - 12:18 .

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...

Saberchic wrote...
What Anders did was make it so that people could no longer ignore the problem, which is exactly what Elthina was doing. I'm sure she meant well, but she was put in a position of great importance, and instead she refuses to do anything about the brewing trouble. She has recourse if Meredith doesn't fall in line; she just doesn't use it.

Anders didn't want "people" to stop ignoring the problem. Anders wanted the Kirkwall Circle massacred (in whole or part) for something that wasn't their fault to prove to the other mages that they had to fight the templars. 

The plan was alwasy to goad Meredith into the ROA, on the basis of something the mages didn't do. 

That doesn't excuse Meredith for falling for it.

[In Exile]

Rassler wrote...
nope totally wrong. What if a mundane destroyed the chantry?

Then presumably the templars wouldn't be involved.

Would they kill every citizens? Anders also wanted to show that actions 1 mage condems all of them even if that mage is not even from the circle.  

... That's exactly what I said. Anders wanted to prove that by goading Meredith into massacring the Kirkwall Circle. 

There is an obvious discrimiantion here, they see all mages as monsters and think of them as one. Meredith could have easily ordered Anders's excution. but she ordered all mages to be annuled. She doesn't even care if you let Anders live.

Yes, and that's what Anders plan was. To have Meredith attempt to massacre the Kirkwall Circle. 

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
That doesn't excuse Meredith for falling for it.

Of course not. And I never said as much. 

But whether or not people agree with Anders, we should all at least agree on what Anders was aiming for. 

[Plaintiff]

Filament wrote...

Meredith was looking for any excuse to annul them. IIRC she requested the option to take the Right of Annulment several times, and it was Elthina who denied her. She didn't do it in all righteous misguided response to Anders' terrorism, she should have thanked Anders for removing the only person standing in her way.

If you let Keras live, then he does mention in Act 3 that Meredith has gone over Elthina's head to obtain the right from the Divine herself.

Seems it was only a matter of time before she went ahead and did it without permission. Anders may've accelerated the process, but I dare say more mages survived than they would've if Meredith and her Templars had struck without any forewarning whatsoever.

[Reaverwind]

Plaintiff wrote...

Filament wrote...

Meredith was looking for any excuse to annul them. IIRC she requested the option to take the Right of Annulment several times, and it was Elthina who denied her. She didn't do it in all righteous misguided response to Anders' terrorism, she should have thanked Anders for removing the only person standing in her way.

If you let Keras live, then he does mention in Act 3 that Meredith has gone over Elthina's head to obtain the right from the Divine herself.

Seems it was only a matter of time before she went ahead and did it without permission. Anders may've accelerated the process, but I dare say more mages survived than they would've if Meredith and her Templars had struck without any forewarning whatsoever.

More mages would have survived had that nutcase taken out the Templar barracks. However, it wouldn't have given him the bloodbath he wanted.