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[Plaintiff]

Reaverwind wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Filament wrote...

Meredith was looking for any excuse to annul them. IIRC she requested the option to take the Right of Annulment several times, and it was Elthina who denied her. She didn't do it in all righteous misguided response to Anders' terrorism, she should have thanked Anders for removing the only person standing in her way.

If you let Keras live, then he does mention in Act 3 that Meredith has gone over Elthina's head to obtain the right from the Divine herself.

Seems it was only a matter of time before she went ahead and did it without permission. Anders may've accelerated the process, but I dare say more mages survived than they would've if Meredith and her Templars had struck without any forewarning whatsoever.

More mages would have survived had that nutcase taken out the Templar barracks. However, it wouldn't have given him the bloodbath he wanted.

Anders doesn't want a bloodbath, he wants mages to fight back.

The Templar barracks and the Mage living space are the same damn building, so no, blowing it up wouldn't have helped him or the mages even slightly.

[d-boy15]

Plaintiff wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Filament wrote...

Meredith was looking for any excuse to annul them. IIRC she requested the option to take the Right of Annulment several times, and it was Elthina who denied her. She didn't do it in all righteous misguided response to Anders' terrorism, she should have thanked Anders for removing the only person standing in her way.

If you let Keras live, then he does mention in Act 3 that Meredith has gone over Elthina's head to obtain the right from the Divine herself.

Seems it was only a matter of time before she went ahead and did it without permission. Anders may've accelerated the process, but I dare say more mages survived than they would've if Meredith and her Templars had struck without any forewarning whatsoever.

More mages would have survived had that nutcase taken out the Templar barracks. However, it wouldn't have given him the bloodbath he wanted.

Anders doesn't want a bloodbath, he wants mages to fight back.

The Templar barracks and the Mage living space are the same damn building, so no, blowing it up wouldn't have helped him or the mages even slightly.

He didn't want a Mage to fight back. Before that Meredith didn't had any reason to slaughter all Mages until
Anders give her a reason which Meredith use it. He kill Elthina because she's the only one who be able to
calm Meredith and cool both side. He didn't want peace, what he want is a war.

If he really want peace or throw Meredith, he would join Thrask.

What he do is drag both side on to full scale war and technically, it's a bloodbath since both side start to
openly kill each other willingly or not.

Modifié par d-boy15, 10 juin 2013 - 01:53 .

[Plaintiff]

d-boy15 wrote...
He didn't want a Mage to fight back.

Of course he did, it's kind of a requirement of war that there be at least two sides.

What he do is drag both side on to full scale war and technically, it's a bloodbath since both side start to
openly kill each other willingly or not.

The Templars and the Chantry had already been engaging in the mass murder of mages for centuries. What's another drop in the ocean?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 juin 2013 - 01:55 .

[d-boy15]

Plaintiff wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...
He didn't want a Mage to fight back.

Of course he did, it's kind of a requirement of war that there be at least two sides.

What he do is drag both side on to full scale war and technically, it's a bloodbath since both side start to
openly kill each other willingly or not.

The Templars and the Chantry had already been engaging in the mass murder of mages for centuries. What's another drop in the ocean?

1. When you make two faction kill each other, it's not about fight back anymore.

2. And the mages fall in to demon possession or killing people (intended or not) for centuries, be fair a little on both side. 

Also, there're many mages who didn't want a war, it's not up to Anders to decide how thing should be. He claim he fight for mages freedom but in the end he took their freedom.

Modifié par d-boy15, 10 juin 2013 - 02:07 .

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
The Templars and the Chantry had already been engaging in the mass murder of mages for centuries. What's another drop in the ocean?

It' breaks the narrative. Provided Anders gets the story out, it will be "mages massacred for crimes of another". 

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
The Templars and the Chantry had already been engaging in the mass murder of mages for centuries. What's another drop in the ocean?

It' breaks the narrative. Provided Anders gets the story out, it will be "mages massacred for crimes of another". 

"Huzzah!  We slaughter mages for the crimes of others!" does not work well as a rallying cry....

-Polaris

[Plaintiff]

IanPolaris wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
The Templars and the Chantry had already been engaging in the mass murder of mages for centuries. What's another drop in the ocean?

It' breaks the narrative. Provided Anders gets the story out, it will be "mages massacred for crimes of another". 

"Huzzah!  We slaughter mages for the crimes of others!" does not work well as a rallying cry....

-Polaris

But it is fun to say.

[Solmanian]

EcreipRellim wrote...

Anders started the war in all honesty but it's a good thing he did otherwise chantry oppression would have just continued

You can tell who never actually fought a war; they're the one that think it's a good idea.

State of mages before the war: confined to "gilded cages". highly restricted freedoms, though living conditions are far superior to those found outside.

State of mages after the break of the war: Internal war between chantry loyalists and circle abolitionists. Open war with the templar orders. Almost complete breakdown of the chantry/circle/templars trinity; chaos and anarchy reigns supreme. The mages, who are allready a miniscule protion of the population, suffer massive casualties due to the total war with a vastly numerically superior enemy (one that had centuries to perfect anti-mage warfare). If you consider the fact that most circle are a few hundreds at the most, and every major battle will result in dozens of dead mages (that is an optimistic estimation); we can be certain that when all said and done multiple circle will be wiped out. Civilian casualties from "colateral damage" will likely far outnumber the number of mages in thedas. Mage population will lose an entire generation, and will likely revert to pre-circle state (which was pretty bad, with them openly being hunted and killed by anyone with a pitchfork to spare).

That is not an improvement.

[IanPolaris]

Solmanian wrote...

EcreipRellim wrote...

Anders started the war in all honesty but it's a good thing he did otherwise chantry oppression would have just continued

You can tell who never actually fought a war; they're the one that think it's a good idea.

State of mages before the war: confined to "gilded cages". highly restricted freedoms, though living conditions are far superior to those found outside.

Slanting this much.  What you say may be true for Fereldan, but I wouldn't say living like a literal slave (and yes mages in Kirkwall are housed as slaves) in Kirkwall is an improvement......  Also there a guilded cage remains a cage.

State of mages after the break of the war: Internal war between chantry loyalists and circle abolitionists. Open war with the templar orders. Almost complete breakdown of the chantry/circle/templars trinity; chaos and anarchy reigns supreme.

The loyalists although outvoted do seem to be going along with the rest of the mages.  Not seeing your civil war amongst the mages here.  As for anarchy, yes, but the story makes it very clear that the circles are giving at least as good as they are getting, and the Templars are the ones that actually rebelled against the Chantry at least in popular perception (see Varic circa 9:40 Interrogation by Seeker Cassandra). 

The mages, who are allready a miniscule protion of the population, suffer massive casualties due to the total war with a vastly numerically superior enemy (one that had centuries to perfect anti-mage warfare).

Citation Needed.  We've covered the rest and while the Templars would have an initial advantage, there are many advantages the mages have that the Templars do not esp now that the Templars don't have Chantry logistical support.  I note as well that the Templars lost ALL of the circles and likely most of their lyrium supplies along with it. 

If you consider the fact that most circle are a few hundreds at the most, and every major battle will result in dozens of dead mages (that is an optimistic estimation); we can be certain that when all said and done multiple circle will be wiped out. Civilian casualties from "colateral damage" will likely far outnumber the number of mages in thedas. Mage population will lose an entire generation, and will likely revert to pre-circle state (which was pretty bad, with them openly being hunted and killed by anyone with a pitchfork to spare).

You need to read Mao's Little Red Book.  It's almost certainly the mages (at least at first) will fight.  In addition to that, the mages will almost certainly seek out secular allies and they will find them.  We already know that Fereldan even before Asunder was a Mage Haven, and that almost certainly means the Fereldan nobility will line up with the mages.  That changes things dramatically right there.  I would not be suprised to see Nevarra follow suit.

That is not an improvement.

An ossified system of repression without hope of change has become a very 'dynamic' and even chaotic system that at least has the chance for something better.  I'd say that's an improvement.  Sadly it's an improvement that's going to be bought with a lot of blood, but that's often the case unforatunately.

-Polaris

[Solmanian]

It's been stated repeatadly that one of the things that makes kirkwall unique, is that the templars are the real power in the city. Not the chantry, the templars. The relationship of the templars and the chantry are very complicated. The templar orders aren't directly under chantry control; the chantry provide spiritual leadership and guidance.

Crusader armies weren't under the command of the pope. They had priests, but their campaigns and military actions weren't dictated by the clergy, but by their own leadership. The chantry control over the templars (and the circles aswell), is the same control that every religious leader have over devout people; that is considerable, but far from absolute.

Krikwall, isn't Orlais, where the entire country is bascially under chantry control. Kirkwall is a place where the templars were handed power, and they'll do anything to hold on to it. I have no doubt that if meredith thought that Elithina was trying to undermine the templar position, she would have her "taken care".

In a city with rising tensions between the various faction, Elithina was the leader of the moderates trying to put down the fires. This is exactly why she was targeted by Anders who wished an open conflict.

Are we suppose to blow up the U.N. for it's inability to stop the atrocities in Syria, Iran, Afghanistan and various other places? I Fully agree That the U.N. is a wholly ineffective body; I also believe that not having a U.N. would be even worse.

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...

"Huzzah!  We slaughter mages for the crimes of others!" does not work well as a rallying cry....

-Polaris

They slaughtered us for the crimes of another goes pretty well, though. 

[IanPolaris]

Solmanian wrote...

It's been stated repeatadly that one of the things that makes kirkwall unique, is that the templars are the real power in the city. Not the chantry, the templars. The relationship of the templars and the chantry are very complicated. The templar orders aren't directly under chantry control; the chantry provide spiritual leadership and guidance.

Until Asunder, the Templars were explicitly under the control of the Chantry including taking orders from the Chantry.  In fact they were expressly called the military arm of the Chantry and troops that the Divine could absolutely rely on in the case of Exalted Marches.

So yes, Elthina was in fact Meredith's direct superior, and it was Elthina that promoted Meredith to Knight Commander to start with.

Crusader armies weren't under the command of the pope. They had priests, but their campaigns and military actions weren't dictated by the clergy, but by their own leadership. The chantry control over the templars (and the circles aswell), is the same control that every religious leader have over devout people; that is considerable, but far from absolute.

You are obfuscating Crusader Armies with Templar Armies.  In the crusades, most armies did indeed remain under the control of their secular lords, but the Knights Hospitalar and Knights Templar and other martial religious orders remained very much under the control of the pope when such orders were deployed and used.

Krikwall, isn't Orlais, where the entire country is bascially under chantry control. Kirkwall is a place where the templars were handed power, and they'll do anything to hold on to it. I have no doubt that if meredith thought that Elithina was trying to undermine the templar position, she would have her "taken care".

The Chantry is still in charge of the Templars.  If Elthina tried and failed to reign in Meredith, that would be one thing, but she didn't even try and Elthina clearly had the authority to do so (and failing that get the Divine to send in Seekers and solve the Templar issue).

In a city with rising tensions between the various faction, Elithina was the leader of the moderates trying to put down the fires. This is exactly why she was targeted by Anders who wished an open conflict.

Yes, but it was Elthina's unwillingness to take a stand and do something that caused much (if not most) of the tensions to start with.

Are we suppose to blow up the U.N. for it's inability to stop the atrocities in Syria, Iran, Afghanistan and various other places? I Fully agree That the U.N. is a wholly ineffective body; I also believe that not having a U.N. would be even worse.

The UN doesn't have authority over it's members except as the members allow it.  That is why the UN is so worthless and not a true world government.  However, the Chantry DOES have such authority and control over it's Templars, or at least it's supposed to.....

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

"Huzzah!  We slaughter mages for the crimes of others!" does not work well as a rallying cry....

-Polaris

They slaughtered us for the crimes of another goes pretty well, though. 

That it does.  One more reason Meredith was an idiot.

-Polaris

[Sir JK]

IanPolaris wrote...

Until Asunder, the Templars were explicitly under the control of the Chantry including taking orders from the Chantry.  In fact they were expressly called the military arm of the Chantry and troops that the Divine could absolutely rely on in the case of Exalted Marches.

So yes, Elthina was in fact Meredith's direct superior, and it was Elthina that promoted Meredith to Knight Commander to start with.

Wait... are you saying the Grand clerics holds operational command and makes strategical decisions now. Because that's what superior means when it comes to military. All orders of the templars seems to rest firmly with Meredith in Kirkwall. Not once do we see any evidence whatsoever that Elthina can give Meredith an order, and the latter never seem to request any from the former either. Nothing suggests she's in the chain of command.
We also got the lore saying that the templars are ruled by the Knight-Vigilant in Val Royeaux.

Not once is Elthina mentioned being Meredith's superior. She is critizised for now reigning Meredith in, yes. But what that means exactly is not clear.

And as pointed out earlier, Meredith was appointed by seniority. She was the only ranked templar left in the city. In that, there was no choice.

...but the Knights Hospitalar and Knights Templar and other martial religious orders remained very much under the control of the...

Grandmasters of the order (or the Hochmeister, if the Teutonic knights). The knightly orders were autonomous.

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
That it does.  One more reason Meredith was an idiot.

-Polaris

Even discounting the idol, Meredith was clearly coo-coo for cocopuffs. 

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

Until Asunder, the Templars were explicitly under the control of the Chantry including taking orders from the Chantry.  In fact they were expressly called the military arm of the Chantry and troops that the Divine could absolutely rely on in the case of Exalted Marches.

So yes, Elthina was in fact Meredith's direct superior, and it was Elthina that promoted Meredith to Knight Commander to start with.[/quote]

Wait... are you saying the Grand clerics holds operational command and makes strategical decisions now. Because that's what superior means when it comes to military. All orders of the templars seems to rest firmly with Meredith in Kirkwall. Not once do we see any evidence whatsoever that Elthina can give Meredith an order, and the latter never seem to request any from the former either. Nothing suggests she's in the chain of command.
We also got the lore saying that the templars are ruled by the Knight-Vigilant in Val Royeaux.
[/quote]

Don't put words in my mouth.  I said that Elthina was in fact Meredith's direct superior.  That doesn't mean that Elthina was expected to have operational control over Meredith.  The President of the US is the direct superior of every officer in the US Armed forces, but POTUS is not expected to have direct operational control (although there have been a few POTUS that have done so usually to detrimental effect).

[quote]
Not once is Elthina mentioned being Meredith's superior. She is critizised for now reigning Meredith in, yes. But what that means exactly is not clear.
[/quote]

The codex entries and the game and lore make it very clear that Elthina had the power to hire and fire the Knight Commander as she saw fit as Grand Cleric.  The same applied to any other Grand Cleric.


[quote]
And as pointed out earlier, Meredith was appointed by seniority. She was the only ranked templar left in the city. In that, there was no choice.
[quote]

There was always a choice.

[quote][quote]
...but the Knights Hospitalar and Knights Templar and other martial religious orders remained very much under the control of the...[/quote]

Grandmasters of the order (or the Hochmeister, if the Teutonic knights). The knightly orders were autonomous.
[/quote]

The religious orders (which is what we are concerning ourselves with here) were both monks and knights and specifically swore an oath of obediance to the church and to the pope.  So you are wrong about the Catholic orders of religious knights (those that took monastic vows).

-Polaris

[Ashelsu]

I thought perhaps incompetence and failure of people in power (Hawke included) was one of the main DA2 themes. Dumar, Meredith, Orsino, Arishok... Elthina was just another example.
Meredith was in Kirkwall orphanage after her family was murdered. So maybe they knew each other for a long time, since Meredith's childhood. We don't really have much info about their relationship.

[Sir JK]

IanPolaris wrote...

Don't put words in my mouth.

Apologies.

The codex entries and the game and lore make it very clear that Elthina had the power to hire and fire the Knight Commander as she saw fit as Grand Cleric.  The same applied to any other Grand Cleric.

Would you mind pointing out to me where? I've pored over every scrap of lore I can find and never seen anything that suggest a GC can dismiss a knight commander.

There was always a choice.

The way I understand military hierarchy is that it's, unless you got compelling evidence against them, it's always the most senior officer that are promoted first. The former viscount killed Meredith's predecessor and as such Meredith, by fiat, is elevated to Knight-Commander.

[
The religious orders (which is what we are concerning ourselves with here) were both monks and knights and specifically swore an oath of obediance to the church and to the pope.  So you are wrong about the Catholic orders of religious knights (those that took monastic vows).

-Polaris

You know... you can be obedient and autonomous at the same time. Much like various monasteries are sworn to the church but rule themselves. They listen to, and generally follow, the guidelines of the head of the church. But they dictate their own affairs.

Modifié par Sir JK, 10 juin 2013 - 05:19 .

[IanPolaris]

Here is at least a prime indicator:

http://dragonage.wik...i/Templar_Order

Important Quotes:

"The Templar Order is a military order of the Chantry that, amongst their duties, hunts apostates and maleficar and watches over the mages from the Circle of Magi. "

Notice (and the Codex entry confirms this) that the Templars are PART OF and subordinate to the chantry.

"The Order is composed of numerous branches, each of them centered around a specific community or region they are assigned to defend and monitor. Templars may be assigned to the Circles of Magi but also to individual Chantries. Each main branch of the organization is led by a Knight-Commander. In Thedas there are 15 Knight-Commanders,[3] who in turn answer to the head of the local chantry, often a Grand Cleric, depending on the region in question."

Notice that the Knight Commanders answer to the Highest Ranking Chantry Priestess (who may or may NOT be a Grand Cleric). "Answer to" means "able to be fired by". Certainly the Right of Annulment makes that clear (by clearly taking that power OUT of Templar hands).

There's more, but I think it's pretty clear that Elthina had at least the legal right to fire or at least sanction Meredith....and she *definately* would have been within her rights to ask the Divine for help or even ask the Divine for a formal Seeker Investigation.

-Polaris

[Sir JK]

I don't know Ian, I'm not entirely convinced. We already knew that the Templars are (were) part of the Chantry as a whole, but that does not mean their organisations are one and the same. That they're subordinate to the Divine I fully and readily admit, and that the individual KC answers to GCs I do as well.

As one of the sections you quoted also points out... each section of templars are lead by a KC. Not by grand clerics. I also notice you did not quote the section in that very article that references the Knight-Vigilant (and the Knights-divine):
The Order itself is ruled from the glittering White Spire in Val Royeaux by a Knight-Vigilant.[2] However, there are other sources that suggest that the Order is actually led by a series of Knights Divine, a division within the Order who serve directly underneath the Divine herself.[1] In addition to making the rules, these Knights oversee day-to-day operations.
Sourced and everything.
This suggests to me that GCs are in fact not responsible for the dismissal of KCs, but that the templar HQ in Val Royeaux is. They do, after all, make the rules.

Finally, I always interpreted (this I admit is interpretation) the reason that it was GCs that authorized (or denied) the RoA is that they're separate from military command. Since their charge is civilian, their authority derived from moral authority and they're not responsible for the templars they would never, at least in theory, call for a RoA for personal reasons (revenge, personal failure, etc.). It would be a form of checks and balances that makes sense. But if they are directly responsible for their KCs (and thus, by extent, their failure to keep the peace)... there's not a whole lot of reasons not to put that authority in the KCs hands.
As you say yourself... the idea is to take it out of templar hands. But if the GCs are the templars superiors and responsible for them... then they haven't done so. Have they? The person holding it is still directly tied to them and their actions.

[Sontemuka]

Allow something happen don't make you guilty (or at least will not make you the "reason of"). She only kept her eyes closed and do nothing about the upcoming mage-templar war, and she decided to pay it with her life. You can alert to the Commander Cullen about Anders intentions with the Kirkwall Chantry, and even you can try to convince her with Sebastian. Besides Leliana had the mission to warn Elthina and evaluate the risks of the mage-templar conflict and to confirm how bad was the tension between both sides.

At first i choose to kill Anders because he deserved it for killing innocent people. But now i understand the situation and say like Anders says. "Sometimes is necessary a sacrifice to force the change" (or something like that i think he says xD)

[IanPolaris]

Sir JK wrote...

As you say yourself... the idea is to take it out of templar hands. But if the GCs are the templars superiors and responsible for them... then they haven't done so. Have they? The person holding it is still directly tied to them and their actions.

Not at all.  POTUS is a civilian but has direct authority over all the US Armed Forces by oath (it's part of the commissioned officer's oath of office in fact).  It takes a direct order from POTUS to authorize a first strike nuclear launch.  Why?  To hammer home the civilian authority over the uniformed armed services, but the POTUS is still the CinC and as such can still give legally binding orders (that aren't treason of course) to any uniformed member of the military as a superior officer.

I see the requirement for the Grand Cleric to authorize a Right of Annulment in exactly the same light (and in DAO so did KC Gregoire).

-Polaris

[Lulupab]

Sontemuka wrote...

Allow something happen don't make you guilty (or at least will not make you the "reason of"). She only kept her eyes closed and do nothing about the upcoming mage-templar war, and she decided to pay it with her life. You can alert to the Commander Cullen about Anders intentions with the Kirkwall Chantry, and even you can try to convince her with Sebastian. Besides Leliana had the mission to warn Elthina and evaluate the risks of the mage-templar conflict and to confirm how bad was the tension between both sides.

At first i choose to kill Anders because he deserved it for killing innocent people. But now i understand the situation and say like Anders says. "Sometimes is necessary a sacrifice to force the change" (or something like that i think he says xD)

Yes. Anders does not discriminate against anyone, the people who he have killed in chantry deserve Justice too that is why he wants to die. But he can also repent if we kep him alive so that he can see what he has done. Miss helper said keeping him alive is poetic justice, this probably have to do with DA3:I. We can only wait and see

[Vilegrim]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The game makes it pretty clear that Meredith refused to follow Elthina's advice. In practical terms there wasn't much she could do to make her.

Anders was the one who started the war. It was the whole point of what he did.

She couold have at the time the Templars where subservient to the Chantry.  She could have replaced Meredith, had her killed or execured her for heresy if she refused.   Crucifying a rebelious templar or ten to the gates would have sent a clear message about power, and bought the order to heel. 

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Her power existed as long as
Meredith tolerated it. Being told to go home is not a big deal. But If
she tried to stop actively take action against Meredith's growing power,
Meredith could have stopped her. Those that she'd need to enforce such a
drastic action would either follow Meredith or Viscount Dunmar first.

I'm reminded of this scene actually: www.youtube.com/watch

Afterward
breaking up the fight she said to Hawke that she was going to try to
talk to Meredith and Orsino. Neither one of them changed their behavior.


Sebastian will say in a conversation to Aveline that Meredith has "stopped taking the Chantry's advice."

Then send to the Divine, if the Templars still refuse to come to heel call a Sacred March against the Seekers and Templars. Make it clear, either stand down or face the Chantry, and all the armies it can call upon, up to and including the Imperium if that is what it takes.  If the Templars are in rebellion (and Meredith clearly was) better to have the war than allow it to go unchallenged, for if it is allowed to go unchallenged then the Chatry looses everything (As it seems to have done. )

Modifié par Vilegrim, 10 juin 2013 - 07:51 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rassler wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Then that's Meredith's fault.

Elthina choose her to become knight commander.

Meredith was popular, good and perfectly sane - a good choice to make at that time.

There was no way to know the pressures of the job and later the idol would drive her insane. And lets not forget Meredith had the idol FOR YEARS. YEARS.
Bertram was a rumbling, drooling lunatic after only weeks of exposure.

Meredith is a freakin Superman for staying sane for so long.