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[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

You need to read Mao's Little Red Book.  It's almost certainly the mages (at least at first) will fight.  In addition to that, the mages will almost certainly seek out secular allies and they will find them.  We already know that Fereldan even before Asunder was a Mage Haven, and that almost certainly means the Fereldan nobility will line up with the mages.  That changes things dramatically right there.  I would not be suprised to see Nevarra follow suit.

-Polaris

Really?
A country weakened by two large, bloody wars will now openly p**** off the rest of the world by harboring mages?

Don't ever get into politics Polaris. I don't forsee a long and fruitfull future there.

[Lulupab]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Then that's Meredith's fault.

Elthina choose her to become knight commander.

Meredith was popular, good and perfectly sane - a good choice to make at that time.

There was no way to know the pressures of the job and later the idol would drive her insane. And lets not forget Meredith had the idol FOR YEARS. YEARS.
Bertram was a rumbling, drooling lunatic after only weeks of exposure.

Meredith is a freakin Superman for staying sane for so long.

No her long rooted hatred of the mages caused by her sister turning into an abomination explored in comics etc kept her sane but too much sane. She unleased her insanity on the mages. She was like "Obey me or you are under influence of blood magic!"

Anders had an spirit of vengeance for heaven's sake, the idol is a joke in comparison. I think there is something poetic here. Anders is not so different than many Templars. Anders had a very just cause, to save all mages from oprression without casuing any harm or using blood magic. With time and after countless failures like how he failed to rescue Karl, Vengeance took over, just like the Templars. At first the Templars were doing Ok, not abusing mages and simply policing them and together they stood against corruption and demons. But soon afer for whatever reasons they became corrupt, they were no longer a force of Justice, they saw all mages as criminals and became the mages oppressors, not police. Anders is a pure reflection of current templar methos in mage form.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sontemuka wrote...
At first i choose to kill Anders because he deserved it for killing innocent people. But now i understand the situation and say like Anders says. "Sometimes is necessary a sacrifice to force the change" (or something like that i think he says xD)

And mage freedoms aren't a necessary sacrifice?

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Really?
A country weakened by two large, bloody wars will now openly p**** off the rest of the world by harboring mages?

Don't ever get into politics Polaris. I don't forsee a long and fruitfull future there.

You assume the rest of the world will be "torqued off".  I would seriously re-examine that stance if I were you.  Fereldan was a known mage haven by Act 3 of DA2, but you didn't hear bad things about Fereldan in that sense (and many good things) except from Templars.  Even the Chantry seemed ill inclined to go after Fereldan, and that was before the events of Asunder.

After Asunder and the Templars open rebellion against the Chantry, Fereldan's actions against the Templar Order looks better and better, even from the Chantry PoV (and that's especially true if the King or Queen made some kind of deal with the Grand Cleric of Denerim, First Enchanter Irving, and KC Gregoire and I think that's very likely).

Not only that but with the Orlesian Civil war and the Mage-Templar chaos, Fereledan's actions have largely insured that Fereldan will not be on the Front Lines this time out.

So I spit what you said right back at you Lotion:  If you ever consider a career at politics, I'd reconsider.

-Polaris

[Lulupab]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Really?
A country weakened by two large, bloody wars will now openly p**** off the rest of the world by harboring mages?

Don't ever get into politics Polaris. I don't forsee a long and fruitfull future there.

You assume the rest of the world will be "torqued off".  I would seriously re-examine that stance if I were you.  Fereldan was a known mage haven by Act 3 of DA2, but you didn't hear bad things about Fereldan in that sense (and many good things) except from Templars.  Even the Chantry seemed ill inclined to go after Fereldan, and that was before the events of Asunder.

After Asunder and the Templars open rebellion against the Chantry, Fereldan's actions against the Templar Order looks better and better, even from the Chantry PoV (and that's especially true if the King or Queen made some kind of deal with the Grand Cleric of Denerim, First Enchanter Irving, and KC Gregoire and I think that's very likely).

Not only that but with the Orlesian Civil war and the Mage-Templar chaos, Fereledan's actions have largely insured that Fereldan will not be on the Front Lines this time out.

So I spit what you said right back at you Lotion:  If you ever consider a career at politics, I'd reconsider.

-Polaris

Also if you play as a mage warden in DAO and as boon you ask to free the circle it will actually hapen and Alistar will confirm it if he was made king and is present in act 3 as such. Meredith condemns him for allowing Ferelden circle to be independant, they police themselves withoout the templars or the chantry.

Even if you don't ask for that boon Alistar still takes mages side and meredith condems Alistar for it because mages from kirkwall are escaping to Ferelden.

Modifié par Rassler, 10 juin 2013 - 10:01 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

You assume the rest of the world will be "torqued off".  I would seriously re-examine that stance if I were you.  Fereldan was a known mage haven by Act 3 of DA2, but you didn't hear bad things about Fereldan in that sense (and many good things) except from Templars.  Even the Chantry seemed ill inclined to go after Fereldan, and that was before the events of Asunder.

After Asunder and the Templars open rebellion against the Chantry, Fereldan's actions against the Templar Order looks better and better, even from the Chantry PoV (and that's especially true if the King or Queen made some kind of deal with the Grand Cleric of Denerim, First Enchanter Irving, and KC Gregoire and I think that's very likely).

Not only that but with the Orlesian Civil war and the Mage-Templar chaos, Fereledan's actions have largely insured that Fereldan will not be on the Front Lines this time out.

So I spit what you said right back at you Lotion:  If you ever consider a career at politics, I'd reconsider.

-Polaris

There is a big difference between the two acts and you know it.
And it's not just the Chantry you should be thinking off, but also every other nation that may want a piece of Ferelden pie.

Like it or not, Ferelden is weakened.

[neonmoth]

Rassler wrote...

Base on what I've gathered up about this woman is that shes is one of thee most powerful person in Kirkwall. She had the legal authority to tried and imprisoned the former Viscount, Perrin Threnhold and using her title as theGrand Cleric she appointed Meredith Stannard as the new Knight-Commander; she didn't even bother checking out her
background prior to appointing her as the new Night-Commander. Apparently a lot of people love (Not all of course) this woman like they love their mothers.

I wanted to kill Anders after what he did in Act 3, and I did exactly that on my first two characters out of pure ignorance. Right after I've finished playing with my third one my emotional opinion of this woman changed. I can't help but to accuse this woman for aiding Meredith tyrant behavior against the Mages after ACT 2 for three solid years, and for allowing her to consistently bully and harass The First Enchanter Orsino, and other Mages that becamefallen victims of this tyranny. For three years this woman allowed Meredith to essentially rule Kirkwall therefor giving her even grater power than she should have been allowed to have. Three years of systematic abuse under Meredith tyrant Regine caused so many mages to rely on blood magic to defend themselves as an act of pure desperation. In the beginning stage of ACT 3: Showdown Orsino rallied up the citizenson the streets to vent out his frustrations to the public. He couldn't be more right in his speech. Meredith approaches and essentially defended herself. After Hawke intervened and choose which was was right, or stayed neutral. The Grand Cleric cat walked up to active participants like if she was gods gift to the peopleof Kirkwall to then break up the fight between Meredith and Orsino. She then told the citizens to go home. Act: 3 The Last Straw the final scene shows Meredith having a psychotic breakdown, and Orsino was even cooperative to her, but she wanted more and more.

I blame this woman for the starting of this war because she did nothing about it. I'm glad Anders did what he did because it was necessary. I would've prefer if she was made tranquil, and was force to become my servant in my fancy mansion, or become a servant to the Mages in the circle by serving them food and etc

I am a bit puzzled what do you try to discuss in this thread. You can keep Anders responsible for what he did and, at the same time, criticize Elthina's role in the conflict. Her actions (or lack of thereof) might be seen as despicable, yet it does not excuse Anders' decision to blow up the Chantry. Admittedly, it is easier for me to understand someone's passiveness than active killing of innocents. And I am not saying this as Anders hater, I condemn his actions but I like his character and the role he plays in the story. Also, as many already mentioned, there is no single person solely responsible for the war. The conflict between both parties escalated and was bound to trigger confrontation sooner or later.

Anyway, congratulations for creating another templars vs mages thread.

Edit of formatting.

Modifié par neonmoth, 10 juin 2013 - 11:10 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rassler wrote...
Anders had an spirit of vengeance for heaven's sake, the idol is a joke in comparison.

HAHAHAH.... no.

 Anders is a pure reflection of current templar methos in mage form.

Anders is a pure idiot. That is all he is.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 juin 2013 - 11:12 .

[Lulupab]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Anders had an spirit of vengeance for heaven's sake, the idol is a joke in comparison.

HAHAHAH.... no.

 Anders is a pure reflection of current templar methos in mage form.

Anders is a pure idiot. That is all he is.

Nice logic, HAHAHAHAHA... yes. Right back at you.

Anders is an abomination but he is sane enough to fall in love, care for needs of other mages etc... I have yet to see other abominations with no selfish cause to rise power and feed upon human lives. Meredith's sister became an abomination and killed many people before she died, she was alwasy jealouse at her for being mage. She had her wish, she became an abomination at the end of act and had her fitting end, the most agonizing death scene in DA universe.

Templars talents are as useless as ****** on men against Anders, that is why he kills them without getting a single scratch thanks to Justice. The lyrium imbued to Templar's protection offers no protection against Justice who can manipulate the lyrium inside the templar blood. Same as blood magic but less "evil".

Anders is coming in DA3, brace yourself. Either a living one or Justice in another form, perhaps another body or zombie Anders.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There is a big difference between the two acts and you know it.
And it's not just the Chantry you should be thinking off, but also every other nation that may want a piece of Ferelden pie.

Like it or not, Ferelden is weakened.

Act 3 is where we find out that Fereldan is explicitly a Mage Haven, and no one really want's the contest this or even complains about it other than the Templars.  Even the Chantry seems to be taking a hands off policy and this is BEFORE the events of Asunder.

Now there is an Orlesian civil war, and the Templars have openly revolted against the Chantry.  Given all that, what Fereldan has done is looking better and better, especially if Fereldan can cut deals with their local Templar and Chantry leaders (and I think that's very likely considering that the KIng or Queen is either a hero of the fifth blight or knows the Hero of Feredan personally).  Moreover, Fereldan is hard to attack, her potential enemies are disunified and have bigger fish to fry, AND Fereldan is well situatated both geographically and cultuarally to assimalate magic into it's military and economy (and this was the original intent of Parthenon (sp?) when Fereldan was first founded).

You are grossly misreading the political situation in Fereldan and Thedas as a whole.  I don't know what else to tell you.  Even IF the Chantry wanted to call an exalted march against Fereldan, it wouldn't amount to anything more than a wet firecracker right now.

-Polaris

[TK514]

Rassler wrote...

Nice logic, HAHAHAHAHA... yes. Right back at you.

Anders is an abomination but he is sane enough to fall in love, care for needs of other mages etc... I have yet to see other abominations with no selfish cause to rise power and feed upon human lives. Meredith's sister became an abomination and killed many people before she died, she was alwasy jealouse at her for being mage. She had her wish, she became an abomination at the end of act and had her fitting end, the most agonizing death scene in DA universe.

Templars talents are as useless as ****** on men against Anders, that is why he kills them without getting a single scratch thanks to Justice. The lyrium imbued to Templar's protection offers no protection against Justice who can manipulate the lyrium inside the templar blood. Same as blood magic but less "evil".

Anders is coming in DA3, brace yourself. Either a living one or Justice in another form, perhaps another body or zombie Anders.

Wow, this is almost pure, uncut fanfiction right here.

[Ashelsu]

This Saint Andy cult is really scaring.

[Xilizhra]

Ashelsu wrote...

This Saint Andy cult is really scaring.

Why, exactly?

[Dave of Canada]

TK514 wrote...

Wow, this is almost pure, uncut fanfiction right here.

Welcome to the usual pro-mage side of things, they head-canon and call the writers wrong when they don't go through with their head-canon.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 juin 2013 - 04:34 .

[Lulupab]

TK514 wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Nice logic, HAHAHAHAHA... yes. Right back at you.

Anders is an abomination but he is sane enough to fall in love, care for needs of other mages etc... I have yet to see other abominations with no selfish cause to rise power and feed upon human lives. Meredith's sister became an abomination and killed many people before she died, she was alwasy jealouse at her for being mage. She had her wish, she became an abomination at the end of act and had her fitting end, the most agonizing death scene in DA universe.

Templars talents are as useless as ****** on men against Anders, that is why he kills them without getting a single scratch thanks to Justice. The lyrium imbued to Templar's protection offers no protection against Justice who can manipulate the lyrium inside the templar blood. Same as blood magic but less "evil".

Anders is coming in DA3, brace yourself. Either a living one or Justice in another form, perhaps another body or zombie Anders.

Wow, this is almost pure, uncut fanfiction right here.

Exactly tell me which part is fanfiction so I can post the source of it.

[Gileadan]

Anders is pretty easy to kill, which isn't hard to find out. Just let him go after he blows up the Chantry, and he'll choose suicide by Hawke.

[Lulupab]

Gileadan wrote...

Anders is pretty easy to kill, which isn't hard to find out. Just let him go after he blows up the Chantry, and he'll choose suicide by Hawke.

He wants to die, that is why he doesn't leave, and I'm pretty sure its easy to kill someone who wants to die. He believes those who he have killed deserve Justice as well. Go read Anders page on wikia.

Modifié par Rassler, 10 juin 2013 - 05:01 .

[Gileadan]

Oh, you mean Anders just let me win because he wanted to die anyway? Heh.

If he were that super duper unbeatably powerful... why's Meredith and any templar still alive in chapter 3? He could have just kicked in the doors of the Gallows and cleaned out the place alone if he were the demi-god you just described.

[Lulupab]

Gileadan wrote...

Oh, you mean Anders just let me win because he wanted to die anyway? Heh.

If he were that super duper unbeatably powerful... why's Meredith and any templar still alive in chapter 3? He could have just kicked in the doors of the Gallows and cleaned out the place alone if he were the demi-god you just described.

The game doesn't want to introduce a super power. Besides I didn't say anders is demi-god I just said Templars talents offer no resistance against spirit possession powers because spirits can manipulate lyrium itself, a thing templars have inside their blood which is the source of their resistance. So anders can still be killed but templars are normal warriors when battleing him. He has already killed dozens of templars, escape the circle 7 times in less than 2 years and never once recieved a scratch.

[IanPolaris]

Rassler wrote...

Gileadan wrote...

Oh, you mean Anders just let me win because he wanted to die anyway? Heh.

If he were that super duper unbeatably powerful... why's Meredith and any templar still alive in chapter 3? He could have just kicked in the doors of the Gallows and cleaned out the place alone if he were the demi-god you just described.

The game doesn't want to introduce a super power. Besides I didn't say anders is demi-god I just said Templars talents offer no resistance against spirit possession powers because spirits can manipulate lyrium itself, a thing templars have inside their blood which is the source of their resistance. So anders can still be killed but templars are normal warriors when battleing him. He has already killed dozens of templars, escape the circle 7 times in less than 2 years and never once recieved a scratch.

This being so, I have to wonder just how effective or rather ineffective Templars are against Abominations then.  Could it be that Templars are no better against abominations then any other guys in a tin suit....and if so, could it be that the Chantry has been hiding that fact for centuries?

-Polaris

[Sir JK]

IanPolaris wrote...

Not at all.  POTUS is a civilian but has direct authority over all the US Armed Forces by oath (it's part of the commissioned officer's oath of office in fact).  It takes a direct order from POTUS to authorize a first strike nuclear launch.  Why?  To hammer home the civilian authority over the uniformed armed services, but the POTUS is still the CinC and as such can still give legally binding orders (that aren't treason of course) to any uniformed member of the military as a superior officer.

I see the requirement for the Grand Cleric to authorize a Right of Annulment in exactly the same light (and in DAO so did KC Gregoire).

-Polaris

Fair enough. But the POTUS do not appoint officers, does he? He may pick whom his closest advisors will be from the generals, but he does not choose who the generals will be.

However, here we've assumed that both appointing officers and authorizing the RoA is on the same person. So if the GC has appointed an incompetent K-C and the circle objects violently, the RoA is lying awfully handy for cleaning the slate and saving her political career. Wipe out the mages, get rid of the K-C once situation cooled down and avoid all the blame. Awfully opportunistic, but it allows you to save face. No witnesses whoms' careers do not depend on you.
Precisely how noone would want the RoA to be used.

And if that is not convicing enough, consider this:

If Grand Clerics appoint K-Cs, consider the GC of Orlais:
Orlais got 2 circles. Montsimmard and Val Royeaux. It is also the home of the only templar force larger than Kirkwall's. So we got a massive force of templars whom's commanders would be appointed by the same person.

Now consider what could happen when the Chantry is to elect a new Divine. Not only is the templar force protecting the election itself potentionally under command of someone appointed by Orlais' Grand cleric, but the second closest force is as well!
This arrangement means it's positively trivial for the GC of Orlais to hold the entire Chantry hostage. How's that for checks and balances?

[Herr Uhl]

Rassler wrote...

He has already killed dozens of templars, escape the circle 7 times in less than 2 years and never once recieved a scratch.

He didn't slaughter his way out of the circle any of those times. If anything, it just shows how lax the Templars are in their security.

[IanPolaris]

Sir JK,

Actually the President DOES appoint officers (directly in the case of Flag Rank officers and by recommended lists in the case of other commissioned officers). In the case of commissioned officers, however, these appointments (like other confirmed federal officers) have to be approved by congress.

Officers that are appointed by POTUS that don't require congressional approval are called Warrant Officers and they are allowed to stand in for Commissioned officers in many cases, but can not reach command/flag rank (without becoming commissioned at some point).

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

Herr Uhl wrote...
He didn't slaughter his way out of the circle any of those times. If anything, it just shows how lax the Templars are in their security.

I remember Finn telling the Warden Anders once escaped while the Templars took the mages out for some exercise. If anything, this illustrates how leniency and trust get repaid.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
He didn't slaughter his way out of the circle any of those times. If anything, it just shows how lax the Templars are in their security.

I remember Finn telling the Warden Anders once escaped while the Templars took the mages out for some exercise. If anything, this illustrates how leniency and trust get repaid.

Here is the rest of that story:  Anders jumped off a boat and swam across Lake Calenhad.  If you read the codex entries regarding Lake Calenhad (and the fact it's been a magical dumping ground since the time of the Ancient Avvars), you'd know that's about as safe as jumping off a boat into croc infested waters.

Anders took his life into his hands with that act.  There was no reason to think that a person would risk it.

-Polaris