178 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Raijin]

billy the squid wrote...
1) repeating that she is her superior still mean anything. Hypothetically Ethina demands Meredith step down, she says no. Who's going  to make her? You seem to be under this illusion that being someone's superior actually means a damn thing, if they have no way of enforcing it. The only way to enforce it is using the Seekers, who are part of the Templars and outrank them. So it does in fact call into question everything that you said.

That's simply not true at all. If Ethina had the power to remove the previous viscount from office... she could very well remove Meredith from her position as Knight-Commander. Sure Meredith, as batty as she was in ACT 3, could very well say "No" thus accusing her of being under the influences of blood magic, but who in the Templar order would defy the Grand Cleric and her final decisions? Would Knight-captain Cullen defy her? Not likely. In fact at the end of ACT 3 prior to the boss fight he relieved Meredith from her position because he felt that she was following the rules and protocols of The Order. If Cullen has this power to forcefully make Meredith step down I'm almost positive that Ethina had this power invested in her too.

Ethina was very incompetent, and she had no business being the Grand Cleric. She had no plans to play fair, and even Cullen tells you that what shes doing is essentially wrong by giving mages false hopes. She treated Meredith more like a daughter than a Knight-Commander. Perhaps she always wanted to have a daughter in her early years, but couldn't due to her religion. Same goes for Orsino... but Ethina gave special treatment to her “favorite” Daughter instead of her “son”. With Ethina as Grand Cleric Krikwall had an inauspicious future.

Zanallen wrote...

Anders started the war. That was the whole point of him blowing up the Chantry to begin with, to force everyone's hands with a situation that couldn't be ignored or handled without bloodshed.

Not entity true. While Anders did inflamed things by tossing the gasoline into the already blazing fire... the fact to the matter is under Meredith Regine their was already a war going on between the mages and the Templars.

For maker sake Meredith wanted to execute an escaped Mage who only desire was to get laid by one of the women in the hanged man. I guess his "staff" that he wields from his pants was considered "highly dangerous" in Meredith eyes.

In Exile wrote...
Anders didn't want "people" to stop ignoring the problem. Anders wanted the Kirkwall Circle massacred (in whole or part) for something that wasn't their fault to prove to the other mages that they had to fight the templars.

The plan was alwasy to goad Meredith into the ROA, on the basis of something the mages didn't do.

Where did you get this theory from? That Anders wanted the Kirkwall Circle massacred? Apparently Meredith was one step ahead of Anders when she sent a request to the divine for R.O.A prior to the chantry explosion. http://youtu.be/0mp4DEYTCH8?t=19s If you let Ser Karass live he essentially spills the bean out right in front of you.

[Angrywolves]

Anders and Meredith started it.

[In Exile]

Lord Raijin wrote...
That's simply not true at all. If Ethina had the power to remove the previous viscount from office... she could very well remove Meredith from her position as Knight-Commander. Sure Meredith, as batty as she was in ACT 3, could very well say "No" thus accusing her of being under the influences of blood magic, but who in the Templar order would defy the Grand Cleric and her final decisions?

The ones who believe that the Grand Cleric is being controlled by blood magic. Certainly someone like Karras or Alrik would object to their personal fiefdom challenged. 

Would Knight-captain Cullen defy her? Not likely. In fact at the end of ACT 3 prior to the boss fight he relieved Meredith from her position because he felt that she was following the rules and protocols of The Order. If Cullen has this power to forcefully make Meredith step down I'm almost positive that Ethina had this power invested in her too.

Cullen doesn't forcefully make Meredith step down. She goes bonkers, and he argues with her that kiling Hawke is a bad idea. 

Where did you get this theory from? That Anders wanted the Kirkwall Circle massacred? Apparently Meredith was one step ahead of Anders when she sent a request to the divine for R.O.A prior to the chantry explosion. http://youtu.be/0mp4DEYTCH8?t=19s If you let Ser Karass live he essentially spills the bean out right in front of you.

It's not a theory. It's what Anders says, full stop, to Orisono when he's groveling at Meredith's feet to do anything to spare the mages from the ROA. He goes on a rant about how there can be no compromise, how removing Elthina removes that compromise. Orsino then calls him a loon and asks him if he understands what he did, and Anders says that it's better for all of them to die free than live as slaves. 

Anders understood what killing the Grand Cleric would mean with Meredith as KN. Elthina refused to enable Meredith, and so Anders got rid of the obstacle. He's either an insane idiot or he actively wanted the massacre. 

Modifié par In Exile, 28 juillet 2013 - 10:48 .

[Hilarystamp]

In all honesty....Elthina had much power in Kirkwall. Do I believe she was the sole reason for the war....No. But in saying that She played her part. She always stated that it was always in the makers hands, and she had to stay back. I found this to just be an excuse. At the beginning, I liked and respected her but throughout the game my thoughts changed. She stood and watched as many were being tortured or made tranquil( even those who never committed a crime), which it is stated is against chantry law. Even with proof of Alriks torture she does nothing. I believe she did not care for the mages well being, but instead deserve their fates for being who they are. She was not willing to see the true reality around her.  Am i sad she gone........not one bit.    I agree 100 percent with Anders. The Chanty must go.

[Lord Raijin]

In Exile wrote...
Cullen doesn't forcefully make Meredith step down. She goes bonkers, and he argues with her that kiling Hawke is a bad idea.

What are you talking about? When was the last time you've played DA2? According to what is clearly showed on the clip at @ http://youtu.be/DnuG88J2wds?t=1m24s was a direct order from Cullen to step down. He relieved Meredith from her position as Knight-Commander. Theirs no ifs, what or whatever. Cullen did in fact forcefully make Meredith to step down @ http://youtu.be/DnuG88J2wds?t=1m52s when he sided with Hawke... even if Hawke did sided with the Mages.

It's not a theory. It's what Anders says, full stop, to Orisono when he's groveling at Meredith's feet to do anything to spare the mages from the ROA. He goes on a rant about how there can be no compromise, how removing Elthina removes that compromise. Orsino then calls him a loon and asks him if he understands what he did, and Anders says that it's better for all of them to die free than live as slaves.

I wouldn't exactly use Orsino as your trump card to explain Ander's insanity. I remember when Orsino went nuts inside the Gallows prison and and used blood magic to become a harvester. All of this rambling about how he calls Anders a loon went straight to the trash can when he became a demonic monster.
 

Anders understood what killing the Grand Cleric would mean with Meredith as KN. Elthina refused to enable Meredith, and so Anders got rid of the obstacle. He's either an insane idiot or he actively wanted the massacre. 

Elthina was in fact an enabler. She enabled the fight between Orsino and Meredith to last for as long as it did. She did not take heed to the situation, and just ignored it like if it never even happen. She knew how frustrated Orsino was, and did NOTHING. It's common sense. If you have 2 dogs that don't really like each other... whats the smart thing to do? Let them duke it out or separate them? To prevent blood shed from happening it's best to separate the 2 dogs so that they won't fight.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 28 juillet 2013 - 11:27 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

I wish we could have seduced Elthina and then killed her. She was HOT.

P.S

Anders sucks.

[Hilarystamp]

 Elthina did a lot by not stepping in......I believe she wanted war even though she stated she didn't. 

[In Exile]

Lord Raijin wrote...
What are you talking about? When was the last time you've played DA2? According to what is clearly showed on the clip at @ http://youtu.be/DnuG88J2wds?t=1m24s was a direct order from Cullen to step down. He relieved Meredith from her position as Knight-Commander. Theirs no ifs, what or whatever. Cullen did in fact forcefully make Meredith to step down @ http://youtu.be/DnuG88J2wds?t=1m52s when he sided with Hawke... even if Hawke did sided with the Mages.  

It's been at least a year since playing DA2. I stand corrected - Cullen did actually say the words "I relieve you of your command". 

There's an important, important distinction here. Cullen saying he relieves Meredith is very different from Cullen actually being able to lead an insurrection against Meredith (if she weren't glowing lightsaber bonkers).

You'll notice, for example, that Cullen's line wasn't crossed by the planned masscare of all the mages, including the children. That kind crazy he's all on-board for. So I'm not seeing how Meredith pushing for the KOA over Elthina would necessarily have made Cullen do anything. He was pro Tranquil Solutin, and he was pro ROA/Aonar in Ferelden.  

I wouldn't exactly use Orsino as your trump card to explain Ander's insanity. I remember when Orsino went nuts inside the Gallows prison and and used blood magic to become a harvester. All of this rambling about how he calls Anders a loon went straight to the trash can when he became a demonic monster. 

 I'm not using Orsino to prove Anders is a loon. I'm using Anders response to a clearly worded question to illustrate his agenda. Orsino asks him something to the effect of whether he understands the consequence of his actions. Anders then goes on his "no compromise" and better free that dead tirade. 

His position isn't ambiguous. He wanted to ax Elthina to prevent any sort of compromise between mages and templars, and it is obvious that for Meredith that means the death of every single mage in Kirkwall. If we assume Anders isn't stupid, then he obviously is aware that the mages can't actually beat the templars, so he very clearly desires their death for the sake of his grand crusade. 

Elthina was in fact an enabler. She enabled the fight between Orsino and Meredith to last for as long as it did. She did not take heed to the situation, and just ignored it like if it never even happen. She knew how frustrated Orsino was, and did NOTHING. It's common sense. If you have 2 dogs that don't really like each other... whats the smart thing to do? Let them duke it out or separate them? To prevent blood shed from happening it's best to separate the 2 dogs so that they won't fight.  

Elthina refused the ROA. We're talking about different enabling. 

Modifié par In Exile, 28 juillet 2013 - 11:38 .

[AresKeith]

Hilarystamp wrote...

 Elthina did a lot by not stepping in......I believe she wanted war even though she stated she didn't. 

She refused the ROA

[fchopin]

I do agree that Grand Cleric Elthina should have done more as she was the only person who had the power to do something and did not but apart from that i liked her.

[Lord Raijin]

In Exile wrote...
It's been at least a year since playing DA2. I stand corrected - Cullen did actually say the words "I relieve you of your command".

There's an important, important distinction here. Cullen saying he relieves Meredith is very different from Cullen actually being able to lead an insurrection against Meredith (if she weren't glowing lightsaber bonkers).

Theirs a distinction between saying something and demanding it. Once Cullen realize that Meredith was no longer following The Orders regulation and rules he had clearly showed his authorization by demanding Meredith to step down. Once she resist Cullen had no choice but to use lethal force to stop his former superior from making more of a mess.

I'm not using Orsino to prove Anders is a loon. I'm using Anders response to a clearly worded question to illustrate his agenda. Orsino asks him something to the effect of whether he understands the consequence of his actions. Anders then goes on his "no compromise" and better free that dead tirade.

His position isn't ambiguous. He wanted to ax Elthina to prevent any sort of compromise between mages and templars, and it is obvious that for Meredith that means the death of every single mage in Kirkwall. If we assume Anders isn't stupid, then he obviously is aware that the mages can't actually beat the templars, so he very clearly desires their death for the sake of his grand crusade.

With the way things were going prior to the Chantry explosion their was no compromise because Eilthina refuse to do anything about it. She had several years to set a compromise against the Mages and her Templars. She did nothing about it. How much longer do the city of Kirkwall and the mages need to wait before Eilthina decided to take action? 10 years? 20? The fact to the matter is as time goes by the situation became worst. Many of the mages in Kirkwall now rely on blood magic defend themselves against the Templars.

Anders did in fact knew the consequence of his actions , and apparently so did Elthina when she decided to willing become a martyr. To allow herself to die. Perhaps she felt guilty for what she had created over the years, and felt that this was her punishment.

[Hilarystamp]

Even so..... She stood by and did nothing. Talking to Hawke at the beginning of act 3 she knew things would only get worse. And instead of trying stop anything she stepped back. She still wanted it.

[Hilarystamp]

I agree with Anders............they had years to work things out and no compromise was made. Mainly because the Chantry would not listen. A war needed to happen.

[Lord Raijin]

From the horses mouth http://youtu.be/3rEBsQvVqsM?t=3m14s apparently Anders wasn't the only angry mage to want to kill The Grand Cleric. The fact that once you tell her about Anders plot she still does NOTHING about it. I think Elthina wanted to die, but couldn't get herself to commit suicide.

[Angrywolves]

Gaider and his team wrote the game that way.
Yes Meredith should have been fired but Gaider was setting things up for the Exalted March dlc, which has been incorporated into DAI.

[Lord Raijin]

http://youtu.be/RTg9hwQXcak?t=6m49s

Grand Cleric Elthina: I am Grand Cleric. Who would dare attack me?

12 hours later

[Hilarystamp]

Meredith had a hold on the Elthina just as she did on viscount Dumar. Elthina stepped back on purpose for whatever reason. Maybe she knew of anders plan the whole time....when doing his quest she tells him is heart is troubled and hopefully he has found a bomb for it in the chantry.........she could have known that only war could bring peace in the end. If that's the case It would make perfect sense as to why she didn't leave when sebastian asked her to.

[Lord Raijin]

Hilarystamp wrote...

Meredith had a hold on the Elthina just as she did on viscount Dumar. Elthina stepped back on purpose for whatever reason. Maybe she knew of anders plan the whole time....when doing his quest she tells him is heart is troubled and hopefully he has found a bomb for it in the chantry.........she could have known that only war could bring peace in the end. If that's the case It would make perfect sense as to why she didn't leave when sebastian asked her to.

Elthina was too naive at the time to realize Anders plans until after you tell her... but still she doesn't do anything about it. She didn't send the Templars after Anders... or boost up security.  Same goes for Cullen if you tell him. I seriously think the people in Kirkwall are too feebled minded to realize what's trurly going on. The only intellectual people there are the ones who are tranquil.

[Sir JK]

Lord Rajin: I think you're imagining too much power in Elthina's hands now. Whether she has the authority to appoint or dismiss Knight Commanders is largely unambigous, it is definantely clear that she cannot order any templar around. Much like how members of IRL's ministries of defense can only authorise but never order the military. Elthina is civilian, the templars are military (para-military?). She has no training, no experience and no business ordering soldiers around. Her duties are primarily of managing the Chantries and revered mothers of the citystate of Kirkwall.

Naturally, being a highly structured organisation, there are specific limits to ones mandate. Meredith's is to manage and organise the templars in hunting down apostates and managing the security of the tower. In order to be dismissed it must be shown, with evidence, that she either fails or oversteps this mission.
Much like how Captain Jeven is only dismissed and replaced once you had evidence of his corruption, despite everyone knowing that the guard wasn't exactly clean. Evidence is everything.

And is there any evidence that Meredith is acting or failing in her mission? Evidence that can be presented to Elthina (or whomever)? There is not. The only thing that can be directly attributed to her, is her refusal to allow the tranquil solution and her apology for Emeric organising an investigation of duPuis. Both of which go longer in protecting than damning her.

Until Elthina's death, there's no real evidence or even indication that Meredith does more than just skirt the law (and even then, only in the pursuit of her increasingly difficult duties).

So you're essentially asking Elthina to act without evidence, on extremely shaky grounds, in the presence of a belligrient enemy of the templars, opposite to all notion of civilian and military separation and completely without political tact.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
He didn't slaughter his way out of the circle any of those times. If anything, it just shows how lax the Templars are in their security.

I remember Finn telling the Warden Anders once escaped while the Templars took the mages out for some exercise. If anything, this illustrates how leniency and trust get repaid.

Lol. Assuming the exercise wasn't forced on the mages against their will. Even if it wasn't, treating the right to a healthy body like a privilege that can be revoked is just further evidence that the Circle is a place of tyranny.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 juillet 2013 - 05:17 .

[Lord Raijin]

Sir JK, Elthina had the legal right by chantry law to dismiss incompetent or an unstable Knight-Commander from their position, and Meredith is the right candidate for involuntary dismissal from The Order.

The lore speaks the truth. The fact is fact. 1+1 = 2

Templars may be assigned to the Circles of Magi but also to individual Chantries. Each main branch of the organization is led by a Knight-Commander. In Thedas there are 15 Knight-Commanders, who in turn answer to the head of the local chantry, often a Grand Cleric, depending on the region in question. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Templar_Order under Templar hierarchy. This information was taken out of Asunder.

I don't quite think you truly understand the responsibility that a Grand Cleric has over their designated Chantry. Don't use real life as an example because it's irreverent. Meredith might be the leading commander over the Templar order in Kirkwall, but the fact is Elthina has the upper hand. She is Meredith's superior. She appointed her as Knight-Commander and she can demote her as well. The fact is each every year that goes by she gives Meredith even more leeway, and thats not good, as we clearly seen the consequences from Elthina negligence.

Theirs plenty of evidence to prove that Meredith has lost her mind. First off she refuses to allow any noble to be the new Viscount. When Hawke suggested that he becomes the new viscount Meredith hissed at him saying that it will “Never” happen. Shes trying to take 100% control of Kirkwall, and that's simply not her duty to do. The Order is not suppose to get involved in the political affairs of the city, and thats what Meredith is trying to do.  If Elthina actually gives a damn she would be in the gallows conducting her own research (Or use Kirkwalls famous errands boy to do her investigation for her)... perhaps talking to her Templars about how well Meredith is handling the job. She treats Meredith like her daughter, not as an employee. Meredith requesting the rite of annulment should be a red flag.

I'm sure that other Templars had complained to Elthina regarding to Meredith, and it fallen to deaf ears.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 29 juillet 2013 - 07:44 .

[Lord Raijin]

According to her Codex: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Grand_Cleric_Elthina

People frequently turn to her to mediate disputes-particularly those involving the powerful Templar Order, over whom she holds authority as the Chantry's ranking representative.

Some claim that Elthina's advanced age has rendered her ineffective, and that she allows Knight-Commander Meredith more leeway with each passing year. Some are calling on the new Divine, Justinia V, to appoint a replacement-but they do so quietly, for Elthina is by far the most beloved priest the city has ever known.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 29 juillet 2013 - 08:24 .

[KiwiQuiche]

MisterJB wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
He didn't slaughter his way out of the circle any of those times. If anything, it just shows how lax the Templars are in their security.

I remember Finn telling the Warden Anders once escaped while the Templars took the mages out for some exercise. If anything, this illustrates how leniency and trust get repaid.

"leniency and trust"

Oh please, the mages are just glorified prisoners and the templars their jailers.

@OP yes, Elthina's mind-boggling uselessness and apathy certain kick started a lot of crap during DA2.

[Thomas Andresen]

As much as I do believe in her quote that "she is a gentle mother, who knows her children learns best when allowed to learn themselves", a person in authority cannot always follow that wisdom.

Even someone who's pro-templar should see this.

In fact, if she actually had done something, it'd be unlikely to do much in favour of the mages.

I don't think Cullen would have made a great alternative either. Is there anything about him that doesn't scream PTSD?

[Sir JK]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Sir JK, Elthina had the legal right by chantry law to dismiss incompetent or an unstable Knight-Commander from their position, and Meredith is the right candidate for involuntary dismissal from The Order.

The lore speaks the truth. The fact is fact. 1+1 = 2

I'd love to see your source on this, friend. I've  yet too see any evidence that dismissing Meredith would be legally sound (morally on the other hand, absolutely).

Show me where this is stated and I'll concede this point

Templars may be assigned to the Circles of Magi but also to individual Chantries. Each main branch of the organization is led by a Knight-Commander. In Thedas there are 15 Knight-Commanders, who in turn answer to the head of the local chantry, often a Grand Cleric, depending on the region in question. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Templar_Order under Templar hierarchy. This information was taken out of Asunder.

I don't quite think you truly understand the responsibility that a Grand
Cleric has over their designated Chantry. Don't use real life as an
example because it's irreverent. Meredith might be the leading commander
over the Templar order in Kirkwall, but the fact is Elthina has the
upper hand. She is Meredith's superior. She appointed her as
Knight-Commander and she can demote her as well. The fact is each every
year that goes by she gives Meredith even more leeway, and thats not
good, as we clearly seen the consequences from Elthina negligence.

That they answer to Grand Clerics do not give Grand Clerics absolute authority over them.
Consider Gregoir, he had to seek approval for the RoA from Grand Cleric Elemena. But all other decisions were seemingly either made in concert with Irving or with complete autonomy. Not even for sending the entire surviving order into battle against Darkspawn or sparing the circle based on Irving's word.

The line may be fairly fine, but it's never made explicitely clear exactly what authority Grand Clerics have over Knight Commanders. Except in terms of Rites of Annulment.

Elthina also says herself that it is not her place to form an opinion on Meredith's character. So either she's seriously misinformed (or deluded) about her exact responsibilities... or it is, in fact, not her responsibility but Val Royeux (supported by the fact that there are ranks above Knight Commander according to the templar order article, as well as it seems to be the Seekers jursidiction).

Theirs plenty of evidence to prove that Meredith has lost her mind. First off she refuses to allow any noble to be the new Viscount. When Hawke suggested that he becomes the new viscount Meredith hissed at him saying that it will “Never” happen. Shes trying to take 100% control of Kirkwall, and that's simply not her duty to do. The Order is not suppose to get involved in the political affairs of the city, and thats what Meredith is trying to do.  If Elthina actually gives a damn she would be in the gallows conducting her own research (Or use Kirkwalls famous errands boy to do her investigation for her)... perhaps talking to her Templars about how well Meredith is handling the job. She treats Meredith like her daughter, not as an employee. Meredith requesting the rite of annulment should be a red flag.

And the evidence of gross misconduct of office is? Yeah, she holds the position for 3 years... and given just how impossible it'd be for the Seekers and Val Royeux not to hear of that... I'm inclined to say that the chantry does not consider this to be illegal. Remember that virtually the same thing happened 15 years prior and noone cared then either.
And this time the mage situation is causing massive disturbances (including assassinations)... Meredith likely spun it as a "needed to control the city to ensure that circle security is maintained" and virtually noone in Val Royeux would care since it's well and clearly within the bounds of her mandate.

Sadly, what is morally right is not always what is legally right. Meredith needed to be dismissed on the latter basis, and from what we can see, despite what Thrask says, Meredith seem to have her feet on stable ground.

Also... didn't Meredith go over Elthina's head when it came to requesting the RoA and send it directly to the Divine?

In addition... you mentioned she should have questioned templars dealing with Meredith to see how fit she was... you do realise that said templars are her officers Alrik (until he dies without his gross crimes exposed and thus becomes a martyr and possibly a hero), Karras and Cullen, right? So even if she did, would you expect the answer to be anything other than "it's fine"?

I'm sure that other Templars had complained to Elthina regarding to Meredith, and it fallen to deaf ears.

This, however, I agree with.

Lord Raijin wrote...

According to her Codex: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Grand_Cleric_Elthina

People frequently turn to her to mediate disputes-particularly those involving the powerful Templar Order, over whom she holds authority as the Chantry's ranking representative.

Some
claim that Elthina's advanced age has rendered her ineffective, and
that she allows Knight-Commander Meredith more leeway with each passing
year. Some are calling on the new Divine, Justinia V, to appoint a
replacement-but they do so quietly, for Elthina is by far the most
beloved priest the city has ever known.

Which "some" are these? Templars? Mages? Nobles? Revered mothers and sisters? Anders? Meredith?

It may be a valid complaint... or it may be political enemies/ambitious career-climbers. We do not know.

Modifié par Sir JK, 29 juillet 2013 - 04:02 .