176 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Wouldn't there be no aspects of society that weren't pro-male if this was a patriarchy?

[Ravensword]

Ya'll cisgendered, white males better check your privilege.

[Angrywolves]

Let's keep it civil....in my best Connor Desire Demon voice. I don't want this to be closed just yet. I'm having too much fun.
The tweet was clearly inappropriate . He has apologized and deleted it. If this turns acrimonious the thread WILL get shut down.

[billy the squid]

MissOuJ wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Filament wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Whaohohoho. We don't live in a patriarchy which favours men, that's buuuullsh*t. If we live in a patriarchy then on average men are getting one hell of a short end of the stick. We live in a society where a specific section of society gather a large amount of power and wealth, the fact they happen to be men, doesn't help the rest of the men lower down the social ladder, they're just as screwed as the other sex, in some cases worse.

We do. While it's a quaint idea that the only thing that matters in life is class and other factors like gender and race are irrelevant, culture is modeled after those at the top and designed to perpetuate their example. So we see that the privilege pervades all levels of social stratification. Just because some men are bitter failures does not change that on a whole.

So, the tax loop holes which are of benefit to the rich are counted across the board to all men? Conscription, family court decisions, child support decisions, visitation rights, spending on cancer research and screening. All these are towards the benefit of men are they?It's a quaint idea and blinkered to suppose that money has no say. If it was a Patriarchy then money and social status would mean little, unfortunately as much as some might wish it to be it's not the case. 

You have completely misunderstood what the term "patriarchy" actually means.

I read it and rolled my eyes, same tripe as per usual. As someone who has had to study Law, many of the "rule of law points" made me cringe. If you want to get into the specifics of family law cases and discrimination this is going to be a very. very long lecture.

Modifié par billy the squid, 09 juin 2013 - 10:03 .

[slimgrin]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

lol feminists are funny. 

Funny like a broken leg is funny.

[MissOuJ]

Filament wrote...

That's the thing about feminist ideology that I don't buy. That every problem in society is really, if you do great feats of mental acrobatics, targeted to maintain some negative gender role for women. Not everything is about women. Sometimes it's genuinely just saying guys are dumb ****s. And that's not OK either.

Not everything is about women and women's opression, no, but I still don't see how those ads are supposed to feel empowering to women over the humiliation of men -- no "mental acrobatics" about it. Also, even if this is exactly what these ads were trying to do, saying that they are the reason we shoudn't call out sexist jokes is really problematic.

[Seboist]

Sexist jokes are funny.

[slimgrin]

MissOuJ wrote...

Filament wrote...

That's the thing about feminist ideology that I don't buy. That every problem in society is really, if you do great feats of mental acrobatics, targeted to maintain some negative gender role for women. Not everything is about women. Sometimes it's genuinely just saying guys are dumb ****s. And that's not OK either.

Not everything is about women and women's opression, no, but I still don't see how those ads are supposed to feel empowering to women over the humiliation of men -- no "mental acrobatics" about it. Also, even if this is exactly what these ads were trying to do, saying that they are the reason we shoudn't call out sexist jokes is really problematic.

Posting feminist blogs is about as far from objectivity we can get on the matter.

[Seboist]

Chris Rock: Women talk too much

[billy the squid]

Filament wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

So, the tax loop holes which are of benefit to the rich are counted across the board to all men?

So because there is this thing that benefits a social class indiscriminately, all of the benefits that do discriminate with respect to being a man do not exist. Interesting.

Conscription, family court decisions, child support decisions, visitation rights. All these are towards the benefit of men are they?

No, those tend to favor women probably. I don't recall saying society was pro-male in every single respect.

If it was a Patriarchy then money and social status would mean little

Nope

Yes "patriarchy" intersects with social class, we get it. That those benefits in tax and finance affect both sexes in the class. Or tell me have the rules of primogeniture changed. Are women still unable to inherrit property? If so the world has clearly left me behind.

No not, probably, they do. It's actually fairly common in most aspects of family law and medical funding that it is of benefit to women. Patriarchy at work again?

If within a social strata patriarchy exists. Then why are the majority of solicitors women? Why do employment law tribunals exist? Why do sexual discrimination laws in employment law exist? Clearly if we priviliged patriarchs have such power, we should be stacking the deck in are own favour, surely.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Filament wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Wouldn't there be no aspects of society that weren't pro-male if this was a patriarchy?

Not really, no. Implying that the only kind of rule is absolute rule. Women still exist and can apply pressure on different matters. Sometimes laws are enacted that are pro-women in a sort of patriarchally beneficent way, the mindset of which may be somewhat problematic in itself, but the outcome is the same- the law then favors women.

So losing custody of your kids, your right to see them, and requiring you to pay thousands of dollars to someone in child support that they don't even have to spend on their kids they can supposedly raise better along with aliamony is somehow pro-women in a sort of patriarchally beneficent way? All while having to present your case in a society and criminal system in which woman's testimony and words are valued more highly than a mans? That benefits the patriarchy?

[billy the squid]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Filament wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Wouldn't there be no aspects of society that weren't pro-male if this was a patriarchy?

Not really, no. Implying that the only kind of rule is absolute rule. Women still exist and can apply pressure on different matters. Sometimes laws are enacted that are pro-women in a sort of patriarchally beneficent way, the mindset of which may be somewhat problematic in itself, but the outcome is the same- the law then favors women.

So losing custody of your kids, your right to see them, and requiring you to pay thousands of dollars to someone in child support that they don't even have to spend on their kids they can supposedly raise better along with aliamony is somehow pro-women in a sort of patriarchally beneficent way? All while having to present your case in a society and criminal system in which woman's testimony and words are valued more highly than a mans? That benefits the patriarchy?

Hold on to your hats guys, sorry I mean priviliged brothers, here come the mental gymnastics.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Can't we just all agree that we live in a society and culture in which everyone is treated unfairly at one point or another and not need to divide it up as if every single case of discrimination needs to be categorized, cataloged, and treated like it's own special little snowflake different from everyone else?

[billy the squid]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Can't we just all agree that we live in a society and culture in which everyone is treated unfairly at one point or another and not need to divide it up as if every single case of discrimination needs to be categorized, cataloged, and treated like it's own special little snowflake different from everyone else?

I would agree, but I'm not allowed to as my points are biased because of my patriarchal privilige.

[Ravensword]

Privilege is like power; everybody wants it, nobody wants to share it. You got different groups in society trying to gain privilege. Sometimes people are born into privilege; most people really aren't. The easiest way for anyone to acquire privilege is through money. That is why there is a pervasive obsession for money. It doesn't say "in God we trust" on currency for nothing. Also, worth noting is the fact that, given everything I've said, it's redundant to put "In God we trust" on money, b/c one is an all powerful deity that people worship all else, and the other is God.

So, it doesn't matter whether you, male, female, etc. It's all about teh casssssshhhhhhh. Mo' money, mo' power.

[felipejiraya]

Since we're on this topic, now this is a scary and really serious thing.

http://www.dailydot....ime-convention/

[MissOuJ]

billy the squid wrote...

I read it and rolled my eyes, same tripe as per usual. As someone who has had to study Law, many of the "rule of law points" made me cringe. If you want to get into the specifics of family law cases and discrimination this is going to be a very. very long lecture.

Oh there are several problems with family law, and some of them do negatively impact men and fathers, but that again can be traised to the archaic notion that childrearing is a woman's job, which is again something "we feminists" aren't exactly championing for. But again, those problems aren't exclusive to men: did you know that in 31 states rapists can sue for custody rights? Also, if I remember correctly, most divorced couples end up with joint custody arrangements, don't they?

Also I fail to see what this has to do with the fact that the definition of patriarchy isn't "all men are bad" as you seemed to understand it.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Filament wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So losing custody of your kids, your right to see them, and requiring you to pay thousands of dollars to someone in child support that they don't even have to spend on their kids they can supposedly raise better along with aliamony is somehow pro-women in a sort of patriarchally beneficent way?

I'm not sure where the controversy is there. Yes.

All while having to present your case in a society and criminal system in which woman's testimony and words are valued more highly than a mans? That benefits the patriarchy? 

I thought we already went over how not everything that exists is to the benefit of men (though it may still be an implementation of patriarchy), though it's a little disingenous to present that example outside of the context of rape culture to know why it exists. (Since this thread wasn't already a mess.)

Filament wrote...

though it's a little disingenous to present that example outside of the context of rape culture to know why it exists.

Filament wrote...

that example outside of the context of rape culture to know why it exists.

Filament wrote...

context of rape culture

And we're done here.

[Ravensword]

Seraph Cross wrote...

Some of you seriously need to get that pole from out of your ass.

Well, some like the pole, homes.

[Straw Nihilist]

How was that tweet inappropriate? It was funny, give the guy some credit.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

felipejiraya wrote...

Since we're on this topic, now this is a scary and really serious thing.

http://www.dailydot....ime-convention/

I don't condone what they were doing but cosplayers have got to come to the realisation that if you dress up you are going to get looked at, you kinda stand out.