45 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xandurpein wrote...

I think that the most forced beginning was Mage orgin. I loved the first part with the Harrowing, but it felt extremely contrieved that I could only choose to either activly help Jowan or tell on him. I really felt herded into making a choice I'd rather ignore. I kept searching for other options to get out.

You could argue that the human noble is the canonical beginning since it's a human warrior who appears as PC in all the CGI trailers, but on the other hand I thought the whole point of the orgin stories are that they should be equally valid all of them. So my final vote is all or none.

Agreed. I honestly don't think it's possible to have a canonical origin in this game.

[Havokk7]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Agreed. I honestly don't think it's possible to have a canonical origin in this game.

I disagree. If there are novels or games that follow on from this game then the owners of the IP will have to choose what is canon.


B

[Thiefy]

personally, the dalish origin was the most boring and stereotypical. moreso than human noble. how many rpgs start out with randomly ruining into an ancient ruin that is conviently close by and nobody noticed except a hand full of people who have no signifigance on the plot except the main character? Que the ancient powerful relic that somehow alters your destiny! there was no attachment there at all either. you get a tiny hint of two people crushing on each other if the main player is female, but the family scenes through out the game are so much more powerful as a human noble, regardless of gender.

dalish was weakest really, because you have no choice. maybe as a noble you have 'some' choice and end up getting railroaded into later, but i think that makes better story telling. because there's more connections later on both dwarf noble and human noble make a much more interesting story than the dalish. I don't think they would make better wardens either since 'they have no ties'. That's no entirely true - they have ties to the dalish and elves in general. it would also be in the best interest of fereldan/orzamar to have someone who knows what is going on call the shots based on their own knowledge of the situation as opposed to an outsider who would know nothing or very little. they can get things settled quicker and recieve help faster in order to end the blight. that's why the orlesians sent riordan in fereldan in the first place - because he was a native and knew where to go, who to go to for info, and how to act/blend in/not stand out.

Modifié par Thief-of-Hearts, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:22 .

[devilsgrin]

Human Noble plays out very differently to the other origins, in their dialogue options, and what is said to them by NPCs... however, above all the other Origins, the method Duncan uses to force you into becoming a Grey Warden is the weakest. Each of the other origins were either prison/death sentences through their actions, or in the Dalish's case, through inexplicable contact with the Blight and the darkspawn (personally i do believe that only the Dalish needs the Grey Wardens, and only a Dalish Warden was guaranteed of surviving the Joining itself - inarguably Duncan's MOST promising recruit). The human noble is literally forced into joining, yet there are many options he/she could have taken to escape the Castle without help... who would know the ins-and-outs of Highever better than your character? Duncan? even if he were from highever (which Alistair mentions) the PC would know the current layout better. Also, whats even weaker is that Ser Jory is recuited at Highever also... which makes Duncan's return to Highever for Ser Gilmore (or in "truth" your PC) even less likely.

[Thiefy]

promising to survive the joining but not necessarily the skills or heart or mind Duncan was looking for. and while duncan did have to conscript my warden, he doesn't necessarily have to either. you can choose to go with him willing, just like you can with any of the other origins.



as far as escaping highever - someone else pointed out already it made more sense to go with him and the wardens to find your brother in ostagar. finding that he isn't there, doesn't it make more sense to join the wardens and help stop the blight, especially as a cousland? the family that always does what is right for fereldan? your pc has no reason to belive he/she won't see him after the battle sometime and won't meet up with him soon. because at that point you don't really know anything and can just assume once the blight thing is over you can go back to your old life, or what was left of it.



with jory - the same can be said for city elf. daveth was recruited in denerim - why would duncan come back to denerim, specifically this time the alienage, when he already had a recruit from there? for story telling purposes obviously, but to be more realistic, because in both the cases of human noble and city elf, he already knew the people he was visiting and heard of the prowess of the pc. bascially you were just that badass he had to double around when he couldn't find anyone else. first time around he went to the general area of highever/denerim city, second time he went to a specific area meeting old colleages and officials in highever castle/the alienage which is a seperate part from their respective cities.

[devilsgrin]

i think perhaps the main reason i find the ending of the Human Noble origin the least likely, is that you are literally leaving your mother to die. she is healthy, she is a kick-ass archer, and "we should die together" is such a lame plot-forced thing to do. Cousland's do what is right for Ferelden? Eleanor Cousland (married into the family or not - she's been one for at least 25 years - depending on how old Fergus is) is not doing whats right for Ferelden. She's robbing the kingdom of a Teyrna with decades of experience navigating Ferelden's tar-like political system, just to die beside her (lets be honest) someone patriotically blind husband. (i find it hilarious when he reprimands Arl Howe for saying "bad things" about Cailan...as if just because Cailan is King, he can do no wrong.) Her choice... blahblahblah... she goes from strong woman to wet doily in one line. it just doesn't fit the character we are presented with throughout the Origin... she's strong, independent, no-nonsense...and all of a sudden she "just can't go on without her husband" not even for the sake of her children, or her kingdom.

Modifié par devilsgrin, 21 janvier 2010 - 03:32 .

[Lea-Anne]

I think with the connection to Alistair as a Templar, and you as a mage is a great dynamic. Whether allies, lovers, friends or enemies it works out well. The story seems to work best as a mage. The Mage (if you rp it) already sacrifices for the greater good of the circle, The Connor Incident and Broken Circle give the mage a unique view on the story that is missed in all other playthroughs. And If you play as an Elven mage, they could have a connection to the Alienage and understand their problems.
In my playing the mage seems the most well rounded across all main quests.

Modifié par Lea-Anne, 21 janvier 2010 - 03:50 .

[devilsgrin]

Lea-Anne wrote...

I think with the connection to Alistair as a Templar, and you as a mage is a great dynamic. Whether allies, lovers, friends or enemies it works out well. The story seems to work best as a mage. The Mage (if you rp it) already sacrifices for the greater good of the circle, The Connor Incident and Broken Circle give the mage a unique view on the story that is missed in all other playthroughs. And If you play as an Elven mage, they could have a connection to the Alienage and understand their problems.
In my playing the mage seems the most well rounded across all main quests.

i'd agree with this, the Mage, as the most distinctly different of the Origins is either the Most likely, or the very next-most likely.

[The Gay Warden]

Probably the Dalish one.

[Thiefy]

I don't like leaving her behind either. =/ that was why duncan was forced to conscript me. but I think you misjudge her as a character. the couslands were a tight nit family, and even if she has a no nonsense attitude (not sure how you got that since between the father, fergus and 'pup' we had her completely surrounded by nothing but nonsense), it would be very cold hearted of her to just up and leave her husband to death. i don't see the teryn as patriotically blind either - he may not agree with his lord but it's not his place to question or judge him, and it's certainly out of line for him to speak in such a manner.if anyone is blinded by patriotism it's loghain, and there is a glaring difference between the two.

[devilsgrin]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

I don't like leaving her behind either. =/ that was why duncan was forced to conscript me. but I think you misjudge her as a character. the couslands were a tight nit family, and even if she has a no nonsense attitude (not sure how you got that since between the father, fergus and 'pup' we had her completely surrounded by nothing but nonsense), it would be very cold hearted of her to just up and leave her husband to death. i don't see the teryn as patriotically blind either - he may not agree with his lord but it's not his place to question or judge him, and it's certainly out of line for him to speak in such a manner.if anyone is blinded by patriotism it's loghain, and there is a glaring difference between the two.

ok fair enough, perhaps Eleanor wasn't as no-nonsense as i said.

there are degrees of patriotism... theres the patriotism we see in Loghain, who is so blinded by it that its unhinged his mind... then theres the blind patriotism we see alot in the Real world, where is seem as unpatriotic to disagree with or speak ill of a leader... prime minister, president, king, whatever... thats the type of patriotism that turns otherwise decent rulers into despots... if they know no-one will question him... especially in this case the most powerful noble in the kingdom after the king... then things can quickly go from bad to worse quite easily.

  (have you by any chance read George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series of novels? Bryce Coulsand, if you have read it, is almost exactly like Eddard Stark...)

... but the whole forced conscription is totally out of line... whats Duncan going to do drag you out? kill you right there?... he becomes as bad as Arl Howe in this moment, and never, once, is he redeemed in my Noble's eyes. Doing "What Must Be Done" bull-shyte... he has no real way of forcing you to do anything... the threat of violence is baseless since almost all the origins are in that position anyway.

[Thiefy]

devilsgrin wrote...

... but the whole forced conscription is totally out of line... whats Duncan going to do drag you out? kill you right there?... he becomes as bad as Arl Howe in this moment, and never, once, is he redeemed in my Noble's eyes. Doing "What Must Be Done" bull-shyte... he has no real way of forcing you to do anything... the threat of violence is baseless since almost all the origins are in that position anyway.

100% agree. In this scenario, we see Duncan to be more questionable than in all the other origins, and it really gives more of a shadier look on being a 'grey warden'. This person who is supposed to be a 'hero' just exploited a worse case scenario in order to get a top grade recruit. results? the world get saved. which is why i think it has waaaay more potential than the dalish - it has better story telling.

and i still don't think teryn cousland is blinded by his patriotism. he never agreed to calian's plan, but he didn't want to show open disdain for his king and let that be the sole opinion people see that highever reflects that opinion on their king. it's not america where to can say whatever you want about your ruler and get away scott free. you may dislike the king but trash talking isn't allowed, not if you want to be considered 'loyal'. wrong, maybe by our standards, but thedas was based off of medevil europe and that's just how things were. what else were the options? not to aid the king and let the blight take over the land?

edit- honestly, i just don't like the dalish  strange sonce both human noble and the dalish were written by david gaider yet i had a vastly different reaction to each one.

Modifié par Thief-of-Hearts, 21 janvier 2010 - 04:16 .

[devilsgrin]

i'm sure the devs only replayed the Human Noble for "Sweet Iona/Dairren" and to hear Fergus' infamous "don't worry son, you'll see a sword up close real soon, i promise" line.

[The Gay Warden]

The City Elf one was stupid.



"Hmm. You killed the people who raped your cousin. You're basically the modern day gangster! Well done, you're going to be honored by becoming a Grey Warden!

[devilsgrin]

i'm not saying that Bryce had no options about joining the King at Ostagar, just that he seemed a bit ...self-righteous perhaps.... in the way he says things, and in particular about the king (and to Arl Howe...stupid move EVER trusting him... i mean seriously... he was an Orlesian supporter during the occupation, clearly a grasping egotist who wanted more and more power, and descendent of a family displaced in power by the Couslands... Bryce was a little simple methinks). 

besides this is Ferelden after all. their political model is pretty much from the banns up and based around the power of the Landsmeet, not the king down...though i imagine thats in paper only and its the King and his teyrns that hold the power in 'reality.' also, according to Arl Howe, the Couslands were executed on the kings orders (whether he's referring to Cailan, and Cailan's reaction at Ostagar suggests it was Loghain's orders, and since for all intents by the time Howe says this, Loghain is king -  or at least that there was a forged document with Cailain's approval for the elimination of the Cousland family).

Modifié par devilsgrin, 21 janvier 2010 - 04:37 .

[OneShadyLady]

Female Human Noble was great for me. It even made the nickname "Pup" stick better. Leaving the mom didn't seem as weird as it did when I watched my husband play through it. I also chose the romance with Alistair so I had the option of the uber happy ending. That made up for the all too short vengeance scene with Howe. I think it also made the uber sad ending more touching...don't worry, I won't spoil it.

[Kigeto]

I found the city elf origin to really impact me. It made me hard to make a character a "true hero." I played out the resentment my character held towards humans. Forced into the slums by humans, my life had very few dreams and goals other than get lucky and be a servant. The little light I found in this puddle of spite was my marriage. Arranged or not, I was appreciative of the one day I could cut-loose and spend time with my close cousins. Then some drunken Nobleboy rolls into the Alienage, my HOME. He touches my women and looks at them with such LUST. My cousin Shianni stands up to his ass. She is rewarded by being taken away with my betrothed to his castle. A Grey Warden, someone who knew my mother, offers me an out. To take up arms and finally do whats right. I fought on, I fought hard, I got my way into the nobleboy's quarters... To find my cousin raped, her purity DESTROYED. I gave him no chance to talk. I slaughtered them, I made them pay for every time they touched her.



As the guard's confronted me, I knew what they wanted to hear. I gave it to them. I was proud of what I had done. I killed the nobleboy without a second thought. For revenge, for some sort of justice in this hellhole. What Duncan saw in me was courage and passion. I mustered up the courage to do what I thought was right and pursued it without second thought. I was honored by his decision to save me from my doom through making me a Grey Warden.



I was still marked by scorn though. I berated any human that saw me as different. They may not know of the day I slew a noble, but the memory of my cousin scarred my memory. This ended with a discussion with Wynne. It was about how the Grey Warden's were supposed to serve everyone. To sacrifice it all to save all others, even the humans I resented. This struck my character deep. My success had more purpose than to show those few humans what I could make of myself as an elf. It meant the safety of many people of all races. I found the way to give the humans the respect they never allotted me... I rose above the racial tension and gave up my life for the safety of ALL of Fereldan, not just the elven parts.



So yeah, I liked the City Elf Origin.

[Ulicus]

devilsgrin wrote...
i mean seriously... he was an Orlesian supporter during the occupation

Nope. His family, beneath a 90-year old Terlaton (sp?) Howe, supported them but Rendon Howe probably wasn't even alive at the time. After all, he was a young man during the last few years of the occupation who not only fought alongside King Maric but was rewarded for valour by him.

Amaranthine may well have been his reward, come to think of it, since the Howes were the Arls of Harper's Ford at the time the occupation began, with the Byrons ruling Amaranthine.

His family's initial support of the Orlesians is probably why he, personally, hates them so much.....

As for the Human Noble not being around the first time Duncan visits Highever and recruits Ser Jory, I just pretend that his/her mother's spring salon is off in another part of the country and he/she was dragged off there deliberately so that Duncan couldn't recruit him/her.  That's why, the next time, Duncan shows up unannounced.

Modifié par Ulicus, 21 janvier 2010 - 06:41 .

[devilsgrin]

Ulicus wrote...

devilsgrin wrote...
i mean seriously... he was an Orlesian supporter during the occupation

Nope. His family, beneath a 90-year old Terlaton (sp?) Howe, supported them but Rendon Howe probably wasn't even alive at the time. After all, he was a young man during the last few years of the occupation who not only fought alongside King Maric but was rewarded for valour by him.

Amaranthine may well have been his reward, come to think of it, since the Howes were the Arls of Harper's Ford at the time the occupation began, with the Byrons ruling Amaranthine.

His family's initial support of the Orlesians is probably why he, personally, hates them so much.....

As for the Human Noble not being around the first time Duncan visits Highever and recruits Ser Jory, I just pretend that his/her mother's spring salon is off in another part of the country and he/she was dragged off there deliberately so that Duncan couldn't recruit him/her.  That's why, the next time, Duncan shows up unannounced.

i was under the impression that Harper's Ford was the "major" centre of the arling of Amaranthine.
anyway... Rendon Howe would certainly have been alive during the occupation (it lasted for 80 years didn't it?)... he had to have been to fight alongside Bryce. Its mentioned that the the Howes only turned for Maric late, (after his victory looked likely). I don't get a hatred of Orlesians from Arl Howe... from Loghain of course, but not so much from him... had the Orlesians looked like they would crush the rebellion, i'm sure the Howe's would have profitted through their remaining loyal.

however, the spring salon conspiracy... i like it. could very well have happened that way. ;-)

[dkjestrup]

Depends really. In my opinion, the Dwarfs are really isolated. Sure, you want to defeat the Blight, or it will eventually destroy Orzammar, but seriously, you aren't in anyway connected to the politics or life of Ferelden.



That leaves the elves or the humans. The Human/Elf Mage seems out of place. Mainly because Mages are points of interest, monstrosities, they're different. You also don't have a very compelling reason to become a Warden. A City elf is weird, you hate the humans, it just seems a bit out of place.



The most "traditional" hero is by far the Human Noble. You can become king/queen, and you hate Howe. You are deeply involved in the politics of Ferelden and the Civil war, you want to protect Ferelden.



The the "underdog" type hero is the Dalish Elf, from a misunderstood people, to becoming the champion of the humans, helping your people become accepted. You also have the best reason to be a warden, and your past is cut-off, making you the perfect candidate.