1799 réponses à ce sujet

[TCBC_Freak]

A lot of people talk about equality between mage treatment and mundane treatment; about the "prison" that mages are kept in... I've posted this before in a another tread, maybe more people will read it this time and actually use their brains when thinking about equality in a land like DA:

There is a big problem of resentment between the average person and mages. One of the reasons most people in Thedas don't like mages is because mages "have it easy" from the average person's point of view. Let me explain.

The average person is probably a farmer. He works for months doing hard labor in the hopes that after paying his bann (or equivalent noble in other nations) a portion of his crop he has enough left to feed his family for the rest of the year. Rats in his granary or a bad harvest could kill his family. He is out in the open exposed to the elements, a bad winter frost would be his doom, and things like raiders and darkspawn are a constant treat to him. Not only those threats but in some nations his family is subject to the lords whims. He has a lovely daughter? Well he prays that a knight doesn't happen by and take a liking to her or she'll be used and cast aside and if he does anything to stand up for her, he dies and his land will be seized. He hopes that his family can advance one day but for now he and his children can't read or write, they are blessed if they even have access to a priest or the like who can do those things and is willing to help them with keeping their books and setting up a will and such. He has to hope that if he dies or is killed for any one of a dozen reason (including but not limited to; a group of thieves, a young mage getting possessed before the Templar find him/her, or being called as a levy to fight in a noble's war) his family is taken in by another family member or they'll starve to death.

A mage, meanwhile, (from his point of view) gets to live in a big tower, with warm food and soft beds. Which his tax in no small part provides for. They get to learn to read and write and are protected from the elements and the bad people that are a treat to his family. And all they do is sit in their tower and read and play games and "study magic." Then he has to hear about these golden children revolting because their life is so hard. He sees them with power in their magic, power his family will never have and yet he hears them complain because one mage was beaten, abused, or a mage who was too weak to control himself/too scared he might be weak gets his magic taken away. Things his family faces every day from the nobility that is supposed to protect him the same as the Templar that are supposed to protect mages. He sees people who have the best things in life given to them for no reason other than the fact that they were born with a power he can never have and then they have the gal to "revolt" against it and potentially unleash demons that could come and kill his family? To give it all up because life is hard in the Circle? His life is hard, he'll probably be dead before his hair has a chance to turn grey, his children are lucky to survivor the winter, but the mages in their posh tower have it hard?

Now, I'm not saying he's right. Nor am I saying he has the right information, clearly his view is somewhat limited. But is it any wonder the mages are having trouble finding support in the majority of people? And do the mages honestly want "equality?" No, they don't, they want the life they have, a life better than many "minor" nobles have, and no one keeping them from losing control or studying magics that always lead to corruption like blood magic. That isn't freedom or equality.

And if you couldn't be bothered to read it all or at least skim it enough to "get it," then you will miss my point by a country mile.

[Xilizhra]

There is a big problem of resentment between the average person and mages. One of the reasons most people in Thedas don't like mages is because mages "have it easy" from the average person's point of view. Let me explain.

So tell me. How many of these average citizens would want to be a mage?

[Who is that Masked Man]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

SamFlagg wrote...
I mean if a mage isn't in your party, how many of them didn't end up going on a murderous rampage of some sort with their magic? 

If we're talking about the mages who actually have some kind of character and plot involvement: First Enchanter Irving, Malcolm Hawke, Niall, Sketch, Finn, Ella, Emile de Launcet, arguably Alain (the derpy Starkhaven apostate from DA2)...and that's all I can think of.  Sketch and Finn are stretching it, since they're DLC characters for DA:O, where you pretty much had to have a mage in your party to function.

Eight sane non-party mages out of the whole Dragon Age cast.  That's...a pretty bad record.

How many templars who actually have some kind of character and plot involvement did not commit or endorse illegal abuses against mages, or act like a homicidal loon?

Well, let's see. There's Greagoir, Thrask, Otto (Not Otto Alric of course, but the Otto from DAO)... and, that's it. Cassandra doesn't count, of course, because strictly speaking, she's a seeker and not a templar.

Only three in all of the Dragon Age cast!? OH MY GOD ALL TEMPLARS ARE EEEEEVIIIILLLLL!!!

Modifié par Who is that Masked Man, 14 juin 2013 - 01:37 .

[TCBC_Freak]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is a big problem of resentment between the average person and mages. One of the reasons most people in Thedas don't like mages is because mages "have it easy" from the average person's point of view. Let me explain.

So tell me. How many of these average citizens would want to be a mage?

So tell me. Did you* stop* reading there or are you being so selective because you don't want to address what I said? Because you seem to have ignored everything in my post. However, since I don't want to be guilty of selecting one thing you did or said, I'll actually address you concern which is, my thoughts on if the average person would be willing to become a mage in place of their lot in life.

And I'd bet a lot of them would... I could be wrong, but you are asking for my opinion; so yeah near infinite power, three meals a day, warm beds, getting to lounge about reading and hanging with other mages in a safe tower, just to name a few "perks"... I'd think more than a few folks would make the trade for a pure logic stand point of crunching the numbers so to speak.

[AltanIV]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

SamFlagg wrote...
I mean if a mage isn't in your party, how many of them didn't end up going on a murderous rampage of some sort with their magic? 

If we're talking about the mages who actually have some kind of character and plot involvement: First Enchanter Irving, Malcolm Hawke, Niall, Sketch, Finn, Ella, Emile de Launcet, arguably Alain (the derpy Starkhaven apostate from DA2)...and that's all I can think of.  Sketch and Finn are stretching it, since they're DLC characters for DA:O, where you pretty much had to have a mage in your party to function.

Eight sane non-party mages out of the whole Dragon Age cast.  That's...a pretty bad record.

How many templars who actually have some kind of character and plot involvement did not commit or endorse illegal abuses against mages, or act like a homicidal loon?

Well, let's see. There's Greagoir, Thrask, Otto (Not Otto Alric of course, but the Otto from DAO)... and, that's it. Cassandra doesn't count, of course, because strictly speaking, she's a seeker and not a templar.

Only three in all of the Dragon Age cast!? OH MY GOD ALL TEMPLARS ARE EEEEEVIIIILLLLL!!!

You forgot Keran. Not sure if he took his vows, but still he was on Thrask's side.

[AltanIV]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

Only three in all of the Dragon Age cast!? OH MY GOD ALL TEMPLARS ARE EEEEEVIIIILLLLL!!!

Four actually, there's Keran as well. Well I don't remember if he took his vows but he still helped the mages in DA2.


Edit : woups, I didn't see my answer, thought there was a bug or something. If an admin can delete one of my two answers I'd be glad.

Modifié par AltanIV, 14 juin 2013 - 01:49 .

[Who is that Masked Man]

That's fair! Four, then.

ETA: Also, for non-homicidal mages, let's add Lanaya. Leorah. Sweeney. Torrin. Keili.

Honestly, my point was more that both lists are pointless subjective nonsense, anyhow. Fact is, there are many named mages and templars who we meet that seem like reasonable people, and many unnamed mages and templars who can't be assumed to be evil, either.

Modifié par Who is that Masked Man, 14 juin 2013 - 02:06 .

[frostajulie]

IanPolaris wrote...

I stand on the side of sanity. It is not sensible to treat an entire group of people like non-humans and expect such a system to end well. On the other hand it is not sensible to ignore the dangers that mages and magic allow for, especially when untrained. What's more, it's illogical to place the care and maintenance of an entire group of people into another group that institutionally fears and despises them.

So,

1. I am for the abolition of the circle system as it stands (and it's currently a moot point since it has ended anyway). I would have been for gradual reform but that isn't in the cards.

2. I am for a comphensive agreement with all the major party of Thedas regarding natural/human rights *including* the rights of mages.

3. I am for the mandatory education of all mages and those with magical talent as well as specialized enforcement of magical crimes and specialized treatment of magical criminals. In this sense I don't oppose the *idea* (the original idea) of the Templars at all. Such an organization (likely an order of knighthood) should be composed and and get input from both mundanes and mages, and should be required to have both mundane and mage membership (and mundane members could and should be taught Templar-like Talents).

4. Such an enforcement arm should be absolutely secular (as in not in the control of the Chantry or any Thedas religion). This arm should be either indepedant much like the Grey Wardens (but if so, it should depend and promise to work closely with the secular rulers of Thecas while promising never to get involved in polics), or it should be subordinate to the secular leaders.

My take fwiw.

-Polaris

I really like this but without it Im pro mage.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is a big problem of resentment between the average person and mages. One of the reasons most people in Thedas don't like mages is because mages "have it easy" from the average person's point of view. Let me explain.

So tell me. How many of these average citizens would want to be a mage?

Quite a few, I'd say. Even if you consider that the mages are as much at the mercy of the templars as the average citizen is at the mercy of the nobles, with those things being equal, the fact that mages don't need a 12-14-hour working day to keep themselves fed and warm may make the decisive difference. Others would not, because they may find the idea of being constantly watched by people who blame their kind for the world's greatest evils unbearable. Still others would not want to be separated from their families.

There would be several groups I'm sure. It's not a foregone conclusion.

[Ieldra]

IanPolaris wrote...
I stand on the side of sanity. It is not sensible to treat an entire group of people like non-humans and expect such a system to end well. On the other hand it is not sensible to ignore the dangers that mages and magic allow for, especially when untrained. What's more, it's illogical to place the care and maintenance of an entire group of people into another group that institutionally fears and despises them.

So,

1. I am for the abolition of the circle system as it stands (and it's currently a moot point since it has ended anyway). I would have been for gradual reform but that isn't in the cards.

2. I am for a comphensive agreement with all the major party of Thedas regarding natural/human rights *including* the rights of mages.

3. I am for the mandatory education of all mages and those with magical talent as well as specialized enforcement of magical crimes and specialized treatment of magical criminals. In this sense I don't oppose the *idea* (the original idea) of the Templars at all. Such an organization (likely an order of knighthood) should be composed and and get input from both mundanes and mages, and should be required to have both mundane and mage membership (and mundane members could and should be taught Templar-like Talents).

4. Such an enforcement arm should be absolutely secular (as in not in the control of the Chantry or any Thedas religion). This arm should be either indepedant much like the Grey Wardens (but if so, it should depend and promise to work closely with the secular rulers of Thecas while promising never to get involved in polics), or it should be subordinate to the secular leaders.

My take fwiw.

-Polaris

That sounds rather reasonable. I wonder if Bioware will let us choose a reasonable middle ground in a game for a change.

[TCBC_Freak]

IanPolaris wrote...

I stand on the side of sanity. It is not sensible to treat an entire group of people like non-humans and expect such a system to end well. On the other hand it is not sensible to ignore the dangers that mages and magic allow for, especially when untrained. What's more, it's illogical to place the care and maintenance of an entire group of people into another group that institutionally fears and despises them.

So,

1. I am for the abolition of the circle system as it stands (and it's currently a moot point since it has ended anyway). I would have been for gradual reform but that isn't in the cards.

2. I am for a comphensive agreement with all the major party of Thedas regarding natural/human rights *including* the rights of mages.

3. I am for the mandatory education of all mages and those with magical talent as well as specialized enforcement of magical crimes and specialized treatment of magical criminals. In this sense I don't oppose the *idea* (the original idea) of the Templars at all. Such an organization (likely an order of knighthood) should be composed and and get input from both mundanes and mages, and should be required to have both mundane and mage membership (and mundane members could and should be taught Templar-like Talents).

4. Such an enforcement arm should be absolutely secular (as in not in the control of the Chantry or any Thedas religion). This arm should be either indepedant much like the Grey Wardens (but if so, it should depend and promise to work closely with the secular rulers of Thecas while promising never to get involved in polics), or it should be subordinate to the secular leaders.

My take fwiw.

-Polaris

One of the main problems I see with this isn't even with the idea itself. The problem is with the setting of Dragon Age. Hear me out.

This idea sounds great to us but we must keep several things in mind; in DA there are very real gods and demons and magic... in our world where the very idea of those things is not even often believed anymore, let alone truly practiced, it has still been over a thousand years and really only the last two hundred or so that we have moved beyond the very same ideas that DA is facing. Saying we need a group that combats mages who call on real demons for power and then not having those "warriors" be agents of god is counter intuitive to even our minds as advanced as we are. We have to push past our first reaction and say that logically we can fight "demons" on our own in this setting... but that's a luxury the people in the setting don't have. Also, they believe that magic comes from demons and spirits, meaning it has to be connected to god in some way or its never going to be anything but evil in their minds. Even you second point about natural liberty and human rights is an alien concept to people in this type of setting were the "laws" of nature are broken every day by mages and you have people who are not just a different race, but a different species living just on the other side of the water who want to kill or convert all of you; it's hard to put our ideals onto this kind of setting.

Edit: I meant to add this but hit the wrong thing.

I'm not saying I don't like your idea, I'm just asking a few questions to get some more thoughts about it going. Address the points and lets see if we can find a way to make it work, what do you see being the moment in  a world like Dragon Age that will push the people forward? Is it even possible in a setting like this?

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 14 juin 2013 - 02:34 .

[Xilizhra]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There is a big problem of resentment between the average person and mages. One of the reasons most people in Thedas don't like mages is because mages "have it easy" from the average person's point of view. Let me explain.

So tell me. How many of these average citizens would want to be a mage?

So tell me. Did you* stop* reading there or are you being so selective because you don't want to address what I said? Because you seem to have ignored everything in my post. However, since I don't want to be guilty of selecting one thing you did or said, I'll actually address you concern which is, my thoughts on if the average person would be willing to become a mage in place of their lot in life.

And I'd bet a lot of them would... I could be wrong, but you are asking for my opinion; so yeah near infinite power, three meals a day, warm beds, getting to lounge about reading and hanging with other mages in a safe tower, just to name a few "perks"... I'd think more than a few folks would make the trade for a pure logic stand point of crunching the numbers so to speak.

I read the whole thing. I only quoted some of it because it was a large post and I only needed that bit to show which poster made it.

Your viewpoint is interesting, but most people don't work based on pure logic., and I suspect the religious vilification of mages along with their being "locked up" (which is still a perception of the common people; I don't even know how much they do know about conditions in the Circle tower). Consider that plus the fact that most young mages don't even want to go there, nor do many of their parents want them to, public perception of Circle conditions does not seem to be that rosy; either they want to stay out of it, or are glad they exist just to keep mages locked down.

[TCBC_Freak]

Xilizhra wrote...
I read the whole thing. I only quoted some of it because it was a large post and I only needed that bit to show which poster made it.

Your viewpoint is interesting, but most people don't work based on pure logic., and I suspect the religious vilification of mages along with their being "locked up" (which is still a perception of the common people; I don't even know how much they do know about conditions in the Circle tower). Consider that plus the fact that most young mages don't even want to go there, nor do many of their parents want them to, public perception of Circle conditions does not seem to be that rosy; either they want to stay out of it, or are glad they exist just to keep mages locked down.

I apologize for assuming you had not read all of my post, and I consed that it is hyperbole and thus isn't a valid argumentative tactic. So, thank you for still addressing it in spit of that.

If I can tangent for a moment here, I've had something of an epiphany just now. The whole debate is nothing but anecdotes. Things we've heard from "history" and rumors about Tevinter or the fall of the elves, or about the treatment of mages in this tower or that place. But really, we've only seen a small fraction of the truth, what we've seen in game and books is such a small localized sample, and even that is colored because we only see a few events in the place we have books or games take place. The truth is neither side here on the forums has enough information to be so thick-necked about this issue. I think I'm done. We just don't honestly know enough. I plan to take each case as it comes from now on. Give me a scenario and I'll deal with it but I'm kind of tired of arguing when neither side has much hard facts really about the long term effects or even the historical evidence.

A little bit of a tangent, and I may change my mind again latter and go back to being pro-Templar or I may switch back to my old pro-mage ways; but part of the reason I switched was because it seemed the Templar had more historical cause to their side, but honestly I'm not sure that's enough anymore... nor is it enough to want all Templars dead or disbanded because of rumors and anecdotes from one city run by a woman driven insane by a magic sword...

[Xilizhra]

A little bit of a tangent, and I may change my mind again latter and go back to being pro-Templar or I may switch back to my old pro-mage ways; but part of the reason I switched was because it seemed the Templar had more historical cause to their side, but honestly I'm not sure that's enough anymore... nor is it enough to want all Templars dead or disbanded because of rumors and anecdotes from one city run by a woman driven insane by a magic sword...

It's a good point; we don't have a great deal of information on the subject. However, while extrapolating how dangerous mages are can't really be done from our world, because we don't have mages, we can extrapolate the character and actions of people like the templars from our own world, in addition to the things we've heard on the inside for both games, as well as the book Asunder. I believe that I have more than enough information to call for the elimination of the Order.

[Who is that Masked Man]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

A lot of people talk about equality between mage treatment and mundane treatment; about the "prison" that mages are kept in... I've posted this before in a another tread, maybe more people will read it this time and actually use their brains when thinking about equality in a land like DA:

There is a big problem of resentment between the average person and mages. One of the reasons most people in Thedas don't like mages is because mages "have it easy" from the average person's point of view. Let me explain.

The average person is probably a farmer. He works for months doing hard labor in the hopes that after paying his bann (or equivalent noble in other nations) a portion of his crop he has enough left to feed his family for the rest of the year. Rats in his granary or a bad harvest could kill his family. He is out in the open exposed to the elements, a bad winter frost would be his doom, and things like raiders and darkspawn are a constant treat to him. Not only those threats but in some nations his family is subject to the lords whims. He has a lovely daughter? Well he prays that a knight doesn't happen by and take a liking to her or she'll be used and cast aside and if he does anything to stand up for her, he dies and his land will be seized. He hopes that his family can advance one day but for now he and his children can't read or write, they are blessed if they even have access to a priest or the like who can do those things and is willing to help them with keeping their books and setting up a will and such. He has to hope that if he dies or is killed for any one of a dozen reason (including but not limited to; a group of thieves, a young mage getting possessed before the Templar find him/her, or being called as a levy to fight in a noble's war) his family is taken in by another family member or they'll starve to death.

A mage, meanwhile, (from his point of view) gets to live in a big tower, with warm food and soft beds. Which his tax in no small part provides for. They get to learn to read and write and are protected from the elements and the bad people that are a treat to his family. And all they do is sit in their tower and read and play games and "study magic." Then he has to hear about these golden children revolting because their life is so hard. He sees them with power in their magic, power his family will never have and yet he hears them complain because one mage was beaten, abused, or a mage who was too weak to control himself/too scared he might be weak gets his magic taken away. Things his family faces every day from the nobility that is supposed to protect him the same as the Templar that are supposed to protect mages. He sees people who have the best things in life given to them for no reason other than the fact that they were born with a power he can never have and then they have the gal to "revolt" against it and potentially unleash demons that could come and kill his family? To give it all up because life is hard in the Circle? His life is hard, he'll probably be dead before his hair has a chance to turn grey, his children are lucky to survivor the winter, but the mages in their posh tower have it hard?

Now, I'm not saying he's right. Nor am I saying he has the right information, clearly his view is somewhat limited. But is it any wonder the mages are having trouble finding support in the majority of people? And do the mages honestly want "equality?" No, they don't, they want the life they have, a life better than many "minor" nobles have, and no one keeping them from losing control or studying magics that always lead to corruption like blood magic. That isn't freedom or equality.

And if you couldn't be bothered to read it all or at least skim it enough to "get it," then you will miss my point by a country mile.

Thing is, your argument mostly addresses the perspective of your average peasant in Orlais, as seen in Asunder. That's the first place the argument was raised, and yes, some folks have picked it up and run with it as if it applies to everyone everywhere.

But I don't think it does. Your average Orlesian peasn't life is probably pretty much as you describe, but it isn't quite the same situation in Ferelden. In part that's probably because Fereldens put a lot more emphasis on personal freedom. As Liselle (the Orlesian immigrant in the Denerim market) says, the nobles in Ferelden aren't quite so high, and the peasants aren't quite so low. Even the political power in Ferelden is decentralized, with the banns relying on the support of their freeholders (landowners), and the king relying on the support of the banns.

And, incidently, we never see any Fereldens complaining about the cushy life that mages supposedly have. Which is not to say that mages get much sympathy there, either... the gossiping peasant dudes you keep meeting condemn them for their unnatural powers. Still, in a country that values freedom and independence so highly that (as we are told in The World of Thedas) they hardly even bother to police their capital because they believe that peopleust ought to just stick up for themselves, it's easy to see how King Alistair could get away with protecting mages who have fled from the Free Marches. Or even how he could get away with declaring the local Circle independent.

Then there's Kirkwall. We see plenty of people in Kirkwall just scraping by, barely able to feed themselves... including Macha, a templar-in-training's sister! We don't hear any of them saying that they wish they lived the life of a Kirkwall mage, however, and that's probably because the Kirkwall circle was a veritable hellhole. Mages may not be exposed to the elements, but beyond that? It really depends on the local templars how "nice" your life is. In Kirkwall, we have reports of the templars raping the mages, beating them, leaving them locked in dark rooms, and, heck, sometimes even failing to feed them properly either... so basically the Kirkwall Circle was just as oppressed as your Orlesian peasant, only more so, because they are also imprisoned.

Also in Kirkwall, Cullen laments that people are turning against the templars, and that mages are successfully exploiting the image of the poor, chained apprentice to their benefit. Would that strategy work in Orlais, where the conditions the mages are living in are comparatively swanky, and the peasants are getting stomped all over by the chevaliers? Probably not. But not every country is Orlais.

The Kirkwall templars are probably the worst of the bunch, in my opinion. But who can say how bad (or how good) life is for mages in the other circles we have yet to encounter yet? We know that not all local templar orders have a great reputation. 

Then we have cultures with pro-magic traditions, like in Rivain, where we are told that the local Circle existed mostly to placate the Chantry, and where mages lived alongside their families. One imagines that the Rivaini population was less than completely thrilled, therefore, when the templars killed all the mages there. And then we have the barbarian peoples who never seemed to have a Circle, like the Chasind and the Avvar. And the Dalish, who have their keepers and firsts.

So, I don't think resentment of mages is universal. It will be interesting to see how much public support the opposing sides actually get in Inquisition.

Also, mages want "the life they have, a better life than many 'minor' nobles have, and no one keeping them from losing control or studying magics that always lead to corruption?" I'm not sure if this is the hypothetical peasant's perspective or yours, but either way it isn't fair.

Do some mages want a world where they can live a life of luxury, cast whatever crazy magic they want, and lord it over everyone? Sure. That's the dream of mages like Tarohne.

Other mages, however, would never dream of using forbidden magics and just want the basic freedom to go home and visit their family. Like Ella.

And others would like it very much if the local templars would please stop raping them. Like Alain.

Others still just want to go somewhere far away and live apart from people so that no peasants will get hurt by out-of-contol magic. That would be Niall.

And finally, though there are other types too, some mages don't want to be mages at all. Like Keili.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Luiren wrote...
Where do YOU stand in the Mage/Templar War?

Far away.

[Anubis722]

neither side

[Dave of Canada]

[quote]Who is that Masked Man wrote...

In part that's probably because Fereldens put a lot more emphasis on personal freedom. As Liselle (the Orlesian immigrant in the Denerim market) says, the nobles in Ferelden aren't quite so high, and the peasants aren't quite so low. Even the political power in Ferelden is decentralized, with the banns relying on the support of their freeholders (landowners), and the king relying on the support of the banns.[/quote]

But we've seen Bann Vaughan rape elves and get away with it, we've seen people who've been imprisoned in a noble's torture room for almost a year deprived of basic necessities, we've seen commoners culled when they were upset about the ruling lord, we're capable of slaughtering groups of people for simply being too loud in a bar, Wynne implies most mages don't survive to the Circle, we've heard that Redcliffe's citizens had to be prevented from slaughtering the Grey Warden if you're non-human (maybe it's mage only but I think it applies to elves as well). 

Come Dragon Age 2 with the pro-Dalish DA:O ending, it's implied horrible things happened to the Dalish.

Ferelden might be better off than Orlais but it isn't much better.

[quote]Still, in a country that values freedom and independence so highly that (as we are told in The World of Thedas)[/quote]

That's mostly relevent to the culture which spawned after the defeat of Orlais. Fereldens want to be proud and independent, free from Orlesian rule. Sad thing is, they've been influenced by the Orlesian rule to the point that they're wearing their clothing and have taken some of their mannerisms.

[quote]Mages may not be exposed to the elements, but beyond that? It really depends on the local templars how "nice" your life is.[/quote]

A mage is fed, clothed, educated and provided a roof over his head. Yes, they've got Templar supervising them but Templar is the only order in all of Thedas which actually holds it's men liable for the crimes they commit, brought before the Grand Cleric who intervenes and punishes the Templar. The system falls apart when the Grand Cleric is incompetent but doesn't mean the system is flawed.

The commoner has to work for his food, work for his clothes, has no education and the roof over his head costs him much. All the while, local lords or guards can have their way with you and they're not liable to anything, you're at the mercy of your superiors and you can't raise a finger or you'll be cut down without anyone giving second thought.

[quote]Also in Kirkwall, Cullen laments that people are turning against the templars, and that mages are successfully exploiting the image of the poor, chained apprentice to their benefit. Would that strategy work in Orlais, where the conditions the mages are living in are comparatively swanky, and the peasants are getting stomped all over by the chevaliers? Probably not. But not every country is Orlais.[/quote]

[quote]One imagines that the Rivaini population was less than completely thrilled, therefore, when the templars killed all the mages there.[/quote]

Of course not, they revere mages as some being worthy of praise. Mages are in a position of power in Rivain where people protect them from the Circle, lying through their teeth to the Chantry to placate them. It isn't surprising that the Chantry would take action upon discovering the truth.

The fact that Rivain's way of dealing with abominations involved shrugging them off and burying the dead isn't something which many people would be comfortable in accepting, let alone feeling comfortable when they allow spirits insides themselves because their culture keeps praising it.

[quote]And then we have the barbarian peoples who never seemed to have a Circle, like the Chasind and the Avvar. And the Dalish, who have their keepers and firsts. [/quote]

Which isn't really applicable to society as a whole. Ruled by mages, they're smaller groups which can never have their society's customs applied to larger civilization or groups of people. For example, the Dalish restrict how many mages can be in a clan as precaution.

[quote]Also, mages want "the life they have, a better life than many 'minor' nobles have, and no one keeping them from losing control or studying magics that always lead to corruption?" I'm not sure if this is the hypothetical peasant's perspective or yours, but either way it isn't fair.[/quote]

Would it be surprising? Mages are given food and fine clothes, taking that all away and throwing a mage to poverty won't be tolerated for long. They've got expectations with little knowlege of the outside world, they see the outside world as something they can't have and want it.

[quote]Do some mages want a world where they can live a life of luxury, cast whatever crazy magic they want, and lord it over everyone? Sure. That's the dream of mages like Tarohne.[/quote]

Wanting a life of luxury is almost irrelevant to blood magic and lording. A mage who's been taken away from their family as a young age lives a comfortable life in the Circle and never experienced the real world, they're used to luxury. Think all of those "comedy" films which show the rich losing all their wealth and try to live a normal life and failing miserably.

Whether or not they'd use blood magic to improve their station is something I'm sure some would have no qualms in doing once their stomache is empty.

[quote]Other mages, however, would never dream of using forbidden magics and just want the basic freedom to go home and visit their family. Like Ella.[/quote]

Not every mage has family they can return to, Wynne was locked in a barn until the Templar came by and Anders was despised by his family when he was taken away. While Ella might return to their family and be loved, it doesn't mean anything when society itself is the problem rather than the Templar.

[quote]And others would like it very much if the local templars would please stop raping them. Like Alain.[/quote]

So they're killing law enforcers to stop their abuse? We should have them executed then, no-one can raise their hand to their superiors, no matter how "justified" it is. Look at the elves who converted to the Qun.

[quote]Others still just want to go somewhere far away and live apart from people so that no peasants will get hurt by out-of-contol magic. That would be Niall.[/quote]

Which would be nice if mages were a hivemind.

[SwordofMercy1]

Mages. I tried both sides and I couldn't seem to get into siding with the Templars. I understand the need for self-control, but seriously? Locking mages in a tower because everyone is afraid of them? To quote the Circle Mage Origin, "If we run away, they will learn to not fear us." The philosophy the Templars and the Chantry has just doesn't sit well with me (Oh a small group of mages did something bad a thousand years ago? Lets keep punishing them.) I don't know. It seems to me the Templars and Chantry are the worst of the bunch, but we all know mages, and everyone else in the world, are just as capable of doing terrible thing to others.

[Xilizhra]

Will mages really freak out so much about living conditions allegedly inferior to their original ones? I seriously doubt it, but we'll have to see in the coming game.

I also had an idea for phasing out the Tranquil while maintaining revenue: take in casteless dwarves who might be talented with crafting, and teach them enchantment.

[CrazyRah]

I'd say that i lean towards pro-mage but i'm not a die hard supporter that think that mages being completely free is without some potentially serious drawbacks. What push me to a more mage like stance is that i just don't have any faith in the templar order and the chantry itself and that the Circle while useful could use some improvements. Reforms and an improved Circle is the way i'd prefer to take but if my hand is forced i will fight the templars to the end.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...
How many templars who actually have some kind of character and plot involvement did not commit or endorse illegal abuses against mages, or act like a homicidal loon?

Well, let's see. There's Greagoir, Thrask, Otto (Not Otto Alric of course, but the Otto from DAO)... and, that's it. Cassandra doesn't count, of course, because strictly speaking, she's a seeker and not a templar.

Only three in all of the Dragon Age cast!? OH MY GOD ALL TEMPLARS ARE EEEEEVIIIILLLLL!!!

Why do you think I want to lock up all the mages and templars in a giant death pit?   

TBH, I do sympathize with both sides.  My frustration mostly has to do with the portrayal of both mages and templars in DA2.  Instead of both sides being portrayed more reasonably, both sides are pretty horribly behaved.  It's mostly frustration talking.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Greagor was a bastard when he was younger(and not so bastard when we see him in DAO and only because of Irving), he even kick pregnant womens

and we would have only blind Templar Otto and Templar Trask who have beloved mage daughter

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 14 juin 2013 - 08:36 .

[Who is that Masked Man]

Dave of Canada wrote...

But we've seen Bann Vaughan rape elves and get away with it, we've seen people who've been imprisoned in a noble's torture room for almost a year deprived of basic necessities, we've seen commoners culled when they were upset about the ruling lord, we're capable of slaughtering groups of people for simply being too loud in a bar, Wynne implies most mages don't survive to the Circle, we've heard that Redcliffe's citizens had to be prevented from slaughtering the Grey Warden if you're non-human (maybe it's mage only but I think it applies to elves as well). 

Come Dragon Age 2 with the pro-Dalish DA:O ending, it's implied horrible things happened to the Dalish.

Ferelden might be better off than Orlais but it isn't much better.

Mmm, that's fair. Ferelden is certainly no paradise (though apparently even the elves there are still better off than in Orlais, according to Lissette). 

Just by the way, I've played both elf, mage-elf, and dwarf, and never had the people of Redcliffe even threaten my Warden, so I'm not really sure what you're referring to on that point.

A mage is fed, clothed, educated and provided a roof over his head. Yes, they've got Templar supervising them but Templar is the only order in all of Thedas which actually holds it's men liable for the crimes they commit, brought before the Grand Cleric who intervenes and punishes the Templar. The system falls apart when the Grand Cleric is incompetent but doesn't mean the system is flawed.

First of all, "templar is the only order in all of Thedas which actually holds its men liable for the crimes they commit?" Really, the "ONLY" order who holds its members liable for crimes? That is utter nonsense.

Also, it isn't true. In DA2, we might see a templar be held accountable for smuggling lyrium (though actually he was framed by Hawke). We also hear that Samson got kicked out of the order for delivering a note from a mage to the mage's lover. But we never see, or hear about, any templar being disciplined for raping Circle mages, beating Circle mages, or illegally making harrowed mages tranquil.

It seems pretty clear the templars are not reliable at policing themselves at all, especially when it comes toward behavior against their mage charges.

Besides which, if the system falls apart when the Grand Cleric is incompetent, then yes, the system itself IS flawed. If there's going to be a Circle, there really ought to be multiple levels of oversight to make sure that everyone is actually doing their job, and that templar misbehavior is being addressed as well as mage misbehavior is.

The commoner has to work for his food, work for his clothes, has no education and the roof over his head costs him much. All the while, local lords or guards can have their way with you and they're not liable to anything, you're at the mercy of your superiors and you can't raise a finger or you'll be cut down without anyone giving second thought.

Circle mages have access to education and a roof over their heads. Beyond that, they are not necessarily any better off than the peasants. In fact the last sentence you have there very accurately described the life of a Circle mage in Kirkwall. Kirkwall is probably exceptional bad, as far as Circles go, but there isn't enough evidence to claim that most Circle mages spend their days living in the lap of luxury.

Of course not, they revere mages as some being worthy of praise. Mages are in a position of power in Rivain where people protect them from the Circle, lying through their teeth to the Chantry to placate them. It isn't surprising that the Chantry would take action upon discovering the truth.

The fact that Rivain's way of dealing with abominations involved shrugging them off and burying the dead isn't something which many people would be comfortable in accepting, let alone feeling comfortable when they allow spirits insides themselves because their culture keeps praising it.

Whoever said that Rivain's way of dealing with abominations involves them just shrugging them off? Seriously, exactly what evidence do you have for that?

Which isn't really applicable to society as a whole. Ruled by mages, they're smaller groups which can never have their society's customs applied to larger civilization or groups of people. For example, the Dalish restrict how many mages can be in a clan as precaution.

The Dalish system works just as well as the Circles have. 

Better, I guess, because so far the Dalish system hasn't collapsed and lead to worldwide warfare. Yet.

Would it be surprising? Mages are given food and fine clothes, taking that all away and throwing a mage to poverty won't be tolerated for long. They've got expectations with little knowlege of the outside world, they see the outside world as something they can't have and want it.

Again, you're assuming that every Circle involves living in a life of luxury. Kirkwall already showed us this wasn't the case.

Whether or not they'd use blood magic to improve their station is something I'm sure some would have no qualms in doing once their stomache is empty.

Some would, sure. Just like some Kirkwall templars rape mages, knowing that they can absolutely get away with it. There's certainly a place in the world for templars, and/or mages who police other mages.

Not every mage has family they can return to, Wynne was locked in a barn until the Templar came by and Anders was despised by his family when he was taken away. While Ella might return to their family and be loved, it doesn't mean anything when society itself is the problem rather than the Templar.

It does mean that the system could have been tweaked to allow mages supervised family visits. 

And, though the fear of mages is definitely a problem in society, I'm not letting the templars off the hook for this one. Kirkwall templars, being notorious jerks, have a history of dragging mages away from their families, and then giving those families zero information about the mage in question, regardless of whether they would have wanted to keep up contact or not.

Cf. Ella and her mother, and even Huon and Nyssa. Maybe Huon was always a crazy blood mage, but it would have been kind of nice for the templars to explain the situation to Nyssa instead of just dragging him away in chains, and telling her nothing about him thereafter.

So they're killing law enforcers to stop their abuse? We should have them executed then, no-one can raise their hand to their superiors, no matter how "justified" it is. Look at the elves who converted to the Qun.

Annnnd, now I have no idea what your point is.

What my point was, is that not all mages want the same thing, and that they are not just rebelling because they want to use blood magic with no restrictions. Some of them are just tired of being abused.

I took no position on whether a mage would be justified in killing templars in order to prevent themselves from being abused. I will say, however, if you actually believe in what you're saying rather than being facetious, the templars themselves are treading on incredibly thin ice... having abandoned their superiors in the Chantry, don't you know. 

Which would be nice if mages were a hivemind.

Yeah, again, my whole point was that they don't have a hivemind. Since, you know, the original argument that I was refuting was that all mages want the same selfish things.

[Who is that Masked Man]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...
How many templars who actually have some kind of character and plot involvement did not commit or endorse illegal abuses against mages, or act like a homicidal loon?

Well, let's see. There's Greagoir, Thrask, Otto (Not Otto Alric of course, but the Otto from DAO)... and, that's it. Cassandra doesn't count, of course, because strictly speaking, she's a seeker and not a templar.

Only three in all of the Dragon Age cast!? OH MY GOD ALL TEMPLARS ARE EEEEEVIIIILLLLL!!!

Why do you think I want to lock up all the mages and templars in a giant death pit?   

TBH, I do sympathize with both sides.  My frustration mostly has to do with the portrayal of both mages and templars in DA2.  Instead of both sides being portrayed more reasonably, both sides are pretty horribly behaved.  It's mostly frustration talking.

What with it being open warfare now, I expect it'll get even worse before things get better.

But, yes, though I am very much pro-mage, I can understand the templar perspective. I hope there turns out to be a compromise option.