1799 réponses à ce sujet

[Who is that Masked Man]

Dark Korsar wrote...

Greagor was a bastard when he was younger(and not so bastard when we see him in DAO and only because of Irving), he even kick pregnant womens

and we would have only blind Templar Otto and Templar Trask who have beloved mage daughter

When did Greagoir kick a pregnant woman? Was it in the Orson Scott Card comic?

[Senya]

I would want a compromise/reform option, to tell the truth.

The main problem with the Templar Order is that they failed to police themselves. I am not going to be naive enough to suggest that there isn't the possibility of Mages failing in the same way as happened in the Tevinter Imperium. It is human nature to side with your own group over others, particularly if you're a persecuted group. Blame the Templars or Chantry or whatever all you want, but the Mages will still have that instinct, particularly if they feel that news of Mage crimes could threaten their independence. Orsino hid Quentin's research in Kirkwall, after all, and learned blood magic himself, if only just the theory, but it was enough to perform a complicated ritual on his first try.

There needs to be oversight on Mages, preferably by an Inquisition made up by Mages and non-Mages, perhaps ex-Circle Mages and Templars.

The Inquisition itself needs to answer to the different nations of Thedas. And, I know this might unpopular, the Chantry should be involved in making sure the Inquisition limits Mage participation in war and/or makes sure the nations of Thedas don't strong-arm the Inquisition into letting/forcing all Mages to participate.

Now, perhaps it doesn't have to be the Chantry using that veto power. The Inquisition could do that on its own, but I worry about the nations of Thedas making trouble or trying to manipulate the Inquisition and the Circles for military edge. Perhaps the Chantry could fund the Inquisition with the recognition of the Inquisition's independence to prevent economic embargoes. I'd like the Chantry's role to be restricted to that. We don't have an E.U. and Thedas won't form a T.U. that for a LONG time.

I'm mainly putting my thoughts down on paper on how to ensure the Inquisition polices Mages fairly and isn't affected by outside forces, Chantry or Countries. In the instance of oversight by individual nations, I worry about wars and politics getting in the way. And, as shown in the trailer, it might be that too many Mages in a war could warp the Veil and you can't expect nations at war to care about that.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 14 juin 2013 - 09:15 .

[Xilizhra]

Now, perhaps it doesn't have to be the Chantry using that veto power. The Inquisition could do that on its own, but I worry about the nations of Thedas making trouble or trying to manipulate the Inquisition and the Circles for military edge. Perhaps the Chantry could fund the Inquisition with the recognition of the Inquisition's independence to prevent economic embargoes. I'd like the Chantry's role to be restricted to that. We don't have an E.U. and Thedas won't form a T.U. that for a LONG time.

How would such manipulation be worse than the Chantry just dominating it? In any case, the Chantry is far too weak to get involved now.

[BlueMagitek]

Given the option between complete mage freedom and return to the status quo, I'll take the status quo as it minimizes the death and damage of everyone involved.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dark Korsar wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...

Greagor was a bastard when he was younger(and not so bastard when we see him in DAO and only because of Irving), he even kick pregnant womens

and we would have only blind Templar Otto and Templar Trask who have beloved mage daughter

When did Greagoir kick a pregnant woman? Was it in the Orson Scott Card comic?

A horrible comic and a horrible cover.

[Senya]

Xilizhra wrote...

Now, perhaps it doesn't have to be the Chantry using that veto power. The Inquisition could do that on its own, but I worry about the nations of Thedas making trouble or trying to manipulate the Inquisition and the Circles for military edge. Perhaps the Chantry could fund the Inquisition with the recognition of the Inquisition's independence to prevent economic embargoes. I'd like the Chantry's role to be restricted to that. We don't have an E.U. and Thedas won't form a T.U. that for a LONG time.

How would such manipulation be worse than the Chantry just dominating it? In any case, the Chantry is far too weak to get involved now.

I fear the weaponization of Mages. A country in this setting would seek any advantage they can get and magic is a great advantage. If put in a desperate situation, I do not doubt that one country would empty out its Circle in order to achieve victory or at least prevent defeat. They would push Mages to fight and die and even could have them perform dangerous rituals.

A check in place to prevent that is essential. There is also the possibility of a military system like in Naruto arising, if you've read/watched that series.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 14 juin 2013 - 10:19 .

[Who is that Masked Man]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...

Greagor was a bastard when he was younger(and not so bastard when we see him in DAO and only because of Irving), he even kick pregnant womens

and we would have only blind Templar Otto and Templar Trask who have beloved mage daughter

When did Greagoir kick a pregnant woman? Was it in the Orson Scott Card comic?

A horrible comic and a horrible cover.

I'm with you there. Also, it's "ser," nor "sir," DAMMIT ORSON SCOTT CARD!

Anyway, I choose to believe that the Knight Commander there was some random jackass, and not Greagoir.

[Xilizhra]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Now, perhaps it doesn't have to be the Chantry using that veto power. The Inquisition could do that on its own, but I worry about the nations of Thedas making trouble or trying to manipulate the Inquisition and the Circles for military edge. Perhaps the Chantry could fund the Inquisition with the recognition of the Inquisition's independence to prevent economic embargoes. I'd like the Chantry's role to be restricted to that. We don't have an E.U. and Thedas won't form a T.U. that for a LONG time.

How would such manipulation be worse than the Chantry just dominating it? In any case, the Chantry is far too weak to get involved now.

I fear the weaponization of Mages. A country in this setting would seek any advantage they can get and magic is a great advantage. If put in a desperate situation, I do not doubt that one country would empty out its Circle in order to achieve victory or at least prevent defeat. They would push Mages to fight and die and even could have them perform dangerous rituals.

A check in place to prevent that is essential. There is also the possibility of a military system like in Naruto arising, if you've read/watched that series.

That's why the Circles would be independently powerful and not answerable to national governments.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's why the Circles would be independently powerful and not answerable to national governments.

What do they do if the government tries to make them answer?

[Roninbarista]

I loved being a mage in DA:O. I was ready to be an apostate with malcontent for the Chantry when DA II arrived. In spite of the fact that hated what Anders became and did, I still support/side with the mages.

I am ready to beat back on the Chantry, Templars, and Seekers.

[Senya]

Xilizhra wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Now, perhaps it doesn't have to be the Chantry using that veto power. The Inquisition could do that on its own, but I worry about the nations of Thedas making trouble or trying to manipulate the Inquisition and the Circles for military edge. Perhaps the Chantry could fund the Inquisition with the recognition of the Inquisition's independence to prevent economic embargoes. I'd like the Chantry's role to be restricted to that. We don't have an E.U. and Thedas won't form a T.U. that for a LONG time.

How would such manipulation be worse than the Chantry just dominating it? In any case, the Chantry is far too weak to get involved now.

I fear the weaponization of Mages. A country in this setting would seek any advantage they can get and magic is a great advantage. If put in a desperate situation, I do not doubt that one country would empty out its Circle in order to achieve victory or at least prevent defeat. They would push Mages to fight and die and even could have them perform dangerous rituals.

A check in place to prevent that is essential. There is also the possibility of a military system like in Naruto arising, if you've read/watched that series.

That's why the Circles would be independently powerful and not answerable to national governments.

And that opens up the problem of Mages not being answerable to the nation's laws should a Mage harm a non-Mage. People will always protect their own. Orsino did it, the Templars did, the Dalish origin implies that the clan just moves on and would do nothing to you if you kill the humans at the beginning, the Qunari exemplify an indepent group not answerable to their host's laws, and in real life there are countless examples of people looking out for their own groups.

[Xilizhra]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That's why the Circles would be independently powerful and not answerable to national governments.

What do they do if the government tries to make them answer?

Are you going to take steps to ****** off someone who can secretly and terribly screw with your rule in the number of ways a mage can, much less a collaborative?

And that opens up the problem of Mages not being answerable to the
nation's laws should a Mage harm a non-Mage. People will always protect
their own. Orsino did it, the Templars did, the Dalish origin implies
that the clan just moves on and would do nothing to you if you kill the
humans at the beginning, the Qunari exemplify an indepent group not
answerable to their host's laws, and in real life there are countless
examples of people looking out for their own groups.

That's why mages are subject to the laws of whatever nations they happen to be in if they harm a nonmage... but, by agreement, those laws cannot consist of trying to reinstate a national Circle system.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 14 juin 2013 - 11:09 .

[13Dannyboy13]

Any game with mages is a no-brainer for my character choice. I loved my mages in origins, as in many games, they may start slow, but are usually the most powerful damage dealing class by the end, plus magic is just so badass. I'll side with the mages every time, the chantry and templars just seem too preachy.

[Senya]

Are you going to take steps to ****** off someone who can secretly and terribly screw with your rule in the number of ways a mage can, much less a collaborative?

Shouldn't the nation that the Circles are located in ensure that the Mages follow its laws and decide how magic should be regulated in their own territory, unless, of course, the Mages go into isolation and purchase the land they inhabit? What if the magic performed in a Circle endangers those outside it?

That's why mages are subject to the laws of whatever nations they happen to be in if they harm a nonmage... but, by agreement, those laws cannot consist of trying to reinstate a national Circle system.

And what if a Mage should be practicing forbidden magic? Should the society they live in wait before someone is hurt or should they be able to arrest the Mage if they perform magic contrary to their laws like, say, demonology?

And would you hand over Mages to a non-Mage police force with Templar training should they be accused of a crime? Would the Circles have the ability to refuse if they don't like it?

[Olivier_dehFanboy]

I wish i could be neutral. I'm not gonna side with potential terrorists nor am i gonna side with cumbersome totalitarians. I just want to find a happy middle ground, that favors the mages more so than it does the chantry.

I DO know that i want to overhaul the templars though. get rid of mage circles and have templars as just a single answer to all criminal problems, whether ur an apostate(probably shouldn't use that slir), a thief or a murderer, you end up being judged by the police of thedas; the templars

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Are you going to take steps to ****** off someone who can secretly and terribly screw with your rule in the number of ways a mage can, much less a collaborative?

Shouldn't the nation that the Circles are located in ensure that the Mages follow its laws and decide how magic should be regulated in their own territory, unless, of course, the Mages go into isolation and purchase the land they inhabit? What if the magic performed in a Circle endangers those outside it?

I doubt anyone is arguing that mages should be above the law in the nation; the mages would abide by the same rule of law as anyone else. That could be how King Alistair and Queen Anora envisioned the independence of the Circle of Ferelden - with mages governing themselves within an autonomous Circle free of the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order, while residing in the kingdom.

almostinsane99 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That's why mages are subject to the laws of whatever nations they happen to be in if they harm a nonmage... but, by agreement, those laws cannot consist of trying to reinstate a national Circle system.

And what if a Mage should be practicing forbidden magic? Should the society they live in wait before someone is hurt or should they be able to arrest the Mage if they perform magic contrary to their laws like, say, demonology?

And would you hand over Mages to a non-Mage police force with Templar training should they be accused of a crime? Would the Circles have the ability to refuse if they don't like it?

People have proposed law enforcement agencies with templar-like people (who aren't religious zealots who think they have the right to dominate and control mages by divine right) and mages working side by side to keep the peace.

[tanisha__unknown]

Mages. It was a tough call, though. I can see where the templars come from and if they didn't behave like psychopaths in DA2, I would have chosen their side. The events in the mage tower in DAO have shown that control of mages is most advisable.

[Olivier_dehFanboy]

IanPolaris wrote...

I stand on the side of sanity. It is not sensible to treat an entire group of people like non-humans and expect such a system to end well. On the other hand it is not sensible to ignore the dangers that mages and magic allow for, especially when untrained. What's more, it's illogical to place the care and maintenance of an entire group of people into another group that institutionally fears and despises them.

So,

1. I am for the abolition of the circle system as it stands (and it's currently a moot point since it has ended anyway). I would have been for gradual reform but that isn't in the cards.

2. I am for a comphensive agreement with all the major party of Thedas regarding natural/human rights *including* the rights of mages.

3. I am for the mandatory education of all mages and those with magical talent as well as specialized enforcement of magical crimes and specialized treatment of magical criminals. In this sense I don't oppose the *idea* (the original idea) of the Templars at all. Such an organization (likely an order of knighthood) should be composed and and get input from both mundanes and mages, and should be required to have both mundane and mage membership (and mundane members could and should be taught Templar-like Talents).

4. Such an enforcement arm should be absolutely secular (as in not in the control of the Chantry or any Thedas religion). This arm should be either indepedant much like the Grey Wardens (but if so, it should depend and promise to work closely with the secular rulers of Thecas while promising never to get involved in polics), or it should be subordinate to the secular leaders.

My take fwiw.

-Polaris

Ian Polaris For President of Fereldan 2014!!!

Yes we can!

[Xilizhra]

Shouldn't the nation that the Circles are located in ensure that the Mages follow its laws and decide how magic should be regulated in their own territory, unless, of course, the Mages go into isolation and purchase the land they inhabit? What if the magic performed in a Circle endangers those outside it?

Basically, the Circles regulate anything to do purely with magic; if something actually harms someone else, that becomes assault/murder/whatever.

And what if a Mage should be practicing forbidden magic? Should the society they live in wait before someone is hurt or should they be able to arrest the Mage if they perform magic contrary to their laws like, say, demonology?

If it's magic without harm, then it's out of the jurisdiction of the nation and up to the Circle. Also, "waiting until someone is hurt" is how most societies handle arresting people.

And would you hand over Mages to a non-Mage police force with Templar training should they be accused of a crime? Would the Circles have the ability to refuse if they don't like it?

It depends on the crime.

[Senya]

LobselVith8 wrote...

/quote.

Then, as long as they obey the law and submit to the new Templar order, I suppose it could work. Magic still needs to be regulated, however. Blood magic should be forbidden for example.

@Xil I would have to disagree there. Kingdoms have the right to ban magic that can be harmful to their society. If Mages want to practice forbidden magic, they should goto the Circle. And, as a Circle Mage, I wouldn't want it practiced in the Cirlce either.

And Mages need to submit to the law. Arbritary decisions on handing over magical criminals or not is what I'm afraid of.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 15 juin 2013 - 12:00 .

[Xilizhra]

almostinsane99 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

/quote.

Then, as long as they obey the law and submit to the new Templar order, I suppose it could work. Magic still needs to be regulated, however. Blood magic should be forbidden for example.

No, that just won't work. Having it forbidden by everyone causes more problems than it solves. Hell, it's not even comparable to gun control because even with illegal guns, you'd still have the military and suchlike get them; here, it's no one legally having it at all.

[Olivier_dehFanboy]

GodWood wrote...
ultimately though my loyalty lies with the Qun.

lmfao, seriously? ur like the delusional son of the Viscount of Kirkwall.

Is there some kind of exclusive offers the qun has that i don't know about?

[Senya]

Blood magic is inherently dark. It is like a ten ton bomb. It cannot be trusted in the hands of anyone. Blood magic hasn't positively helped anyone in the games. Its closest beneficial use was splicing up body parts in a sick experiment.

Creation magic with studying of the body works fine.

[Xilizhra]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Blood magic is inherently dark. It is like a ten ton bomb. It cannot be trusted in the hands of anyone. Blood magic hasn't positively helped anyone in the games. Its closest beneficial use was splicing up body parts in a sick experiment.

Creation magic with studying of the body works fine.

It's helped save my PC's respective bacons numerous times, along with my second one's life partner; I'd call that a positive help in both cases. I also disagree with you that it can't be used for more directly beneficial purposes.