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Where do YOU stand in the Mage/Templar War?


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#476
KainD

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Dave of Canada wrote...

KainD wrote...

Mages - people. All different.
Templars - organisation. All stand for ideals that the templar order represents. 

See the difference?


Yes. Templars have ideals.


Uhuh, everybody has ideals. Only mages represent as many ideals as all people do, but templar order represents a single ideal. 
That's why it's ok to wipe out the templar order but not mages. Because wiping out the mages is the same as wiping out the whole human race but on a smaller scale. That's why your original post idea doesn't work. 

#477
l7986

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Short of Merrill, Bethany, Valenna and Morrigan, I don't really like the mages, but at the same time I hate the templars. If I get the choice, I'll just go hang out with the Wardens and let the two factions rip each other apart.

Modifié par l7986, 16 juin 2013 - 01:53 .


#478
Dave of Canada

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KainD wrote...

Uhuh, everybody has ideals. Only mages represent as many ideals as all people do, but templar order represents a single ideal.


Mages don't have ideals, they're not like us. They're corrupt oppressors by nature and are unable to fit into any community except to rule it. They're selfish bastards who'd want the whole human race to bend knee to their whims, kiss them on their staves and like it.

Thankfully, we mundanes aren't powerless. We've got the noble Templar Order supporting our backs, protecting us from their demonic influence and corruption. The evil of mages will be stopped, we will rise up against our mage oppressors and overthrow their evil regime and make sure none survive to spread their corrupting tales.

As long as mundanes remain, the hope for a future free from mage tyranny will live on. We're the fire which will never extinguish, our ashes will relight into a future which we'll be free! We mundanes are entitled to sweat and bleed for our own causes, not the causes of some monster that plays the role of a man who feels privileged to a better life because he was born special!

Far too many mundanes have lost their lives due to the oppression of mages, their blood stains our nation and we cannot allow this to continue any longer. Mages have stolen everything from us, we're taking it back! We won't be the ones forced into filthy hovels while they enjoy leisure in their Circles! We won't be forced to starve as they eat their filthy dwarven sausage, talking with corrupt dwarves who exchange them lyrium for gold which WE bled for!

Condemn me, it does not matter. History will absolve me.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 juin 2013 - 02:38 .


#479
Who is that Masked Man

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Dave of Canada wrote...

KainD wrote...

Uhuh, everybody has ideals. Only mages represent as many ideals as all people do, but templar order represents a single ideal.


Mages don't have ideals, they're not like us. They're corrupt oppressors by nature and are unable to fit into any community except to rule it. They're selfish bastards who'd want the whole human race to bend knee to their whims, kiss them on their staves and like it.

Thankfully, we mundanes aren't powerless. We've got the noble Templar Order supporting our backs, protecting us from their demonic influence and corruption. The evil of mages will be stopped, we will rise up against our mage oppressors and overthrow their evil regime and make sure none survive to spread their corrupting tales.

As long as mundanes remain, the hope for a future free from mage tyranny will live on. We're the fire which will never extinguish, our ashes will relight into a future which we'll be free! We mundanes are entitled to sweat and bleed for our own causes, not the causes of some monster that plays the role of a man who feels privileged to a better life because he was born special!

Far too many mundanes have lost their lives due to the oppression of mages, their blood stains our nation and we cannot allow this to continue any longer. Mages have stolen everything from us, we're taking it back! We won't be the ones forced into filthy hovels while they enjoy leisure in their Circles! We won't be forced to starve as they eat their filthy dwarven sausage, talking with corrupt dwarves who exchange them lyrium for gold which WE bled for!

Condemn me, it does not matter. History will absolve me.


Mages hate sausages. 

In fact, only the templars are vile and depraved enough to eat dwarven sausage. Even the darkspawn throw them away!

#480
FaWa

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Always go for mages. Its the little bit of anarchist in me. (Just kidding, my NSA overlords)

#481
KainD

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Dave of Canada wrote...

We mundanes are entitled to sweat and bleed for our own causes, not the causes of some monster that plays the role of a man who feels privileged to a better life because he was born special!


Sorry but everybody is born different and some are born special. People are born stronger, smarter, more beautiful some are born handicapped. 
By your logic people who are born without legs should be entiteled to tie rocks to people who have legs, so that they may equally crawl. 

#482
The Hierophant

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FaWa wrote...

Always go for mages. Its the little bit of anarchist in me. (Just kidding, my NSA overlords)


NSA Surveillance Operative:  Hmm? <blacklists FaWa just to be safe>

#483
The Red Onion

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Ieldra2 wrote...
Not so. I deny the legitimacy of "sanctity" as a moral category. It is - or rather should be - an aesthetic category only, and as a corollary I also deny the validity of linking aesthetics and ethics. One of those tendencies rooted in our biology is to link the evil to the disgusting or the disfigured, and the good to the harmonious and graceful. I think this is a very dangerous delusion. Nonetheless it is ubiquitous in storytelling, and especially in Bioware's storytelling. See ME's Reaper minions and DA's darkspawn. The theme of "corruption" strengthens the delusion. I call it "abomination aesthetic", and I find it irresponsible to underscore evilness by physical disfiguration. It is actually the biggest issue I have with Bioware's storytelling in general.

Consequently, with regard to Thedas' mages, the most important issue is not practical politics, but aesthetics and ideology. Chantry ideology links the mages to one of the worlds greatest evils (setting aside, for the moment, the question of whether the mostly mindless darkspawn can reasonably be called evil). The real insult to the mages is not that they are kept at all - people have made reasonable arguments for the Circle system or something comparable - but that they are kept by an organization that institutionally dehumanizes them.


Awesome, we're getting into the politics of art. Not to sound like a broken record, but I largely agree with what you are saying, especially on the empirical level. But on the analytical level I do diverge slightly:

[1] aesthetics have been used to demonize and dehumanize certain individuals or collectives,
[2] the legitimation of such portrayal practices is contingent on our "natural" disgust of certain apperances
[3] by casting public disgust for monsterfied groups as "natural," public prejudice is seen as "blameless"
[4] the institutional distribution of dehumanizaton and blamelessness constitutes a political force

Now that would be my general frame; but I'd also harp on these addendums.
RE:
[1]: Can it be used to dehumanize only one person? I actually think this is impossible; I in fact contend that aesthetic dehumanization never attacks "just" an individual. Individuality, when put into its liberal humanist context, is a human trait. So a dehumanized subject cannot assume individuality. The subject becomes flattened into some force of nature, a symbol of something that the public fears (eg. plague). After such an act of abstraction, the symbol becomes added to a stock pool of panic-inducing signifiers that "tradition" can reuse at will.
[2]: I disagree that this disgust is always "natural." Instances of disgust that can only be expressed by a communicating and understandable subject becomes unclear in its origin: is the disgust natural, or was it conditioned and taught? We cannot know. As a disclaimer, I don't subscribe to the nature vs nurture dichotomy wholesale, for as long as nature is used to justify prejudice and nurture is used to enforce it, this dialectic as a whole is impotent in generating equity.
[3]: Natural is actually a word frequently used to disguise sanctitiy. To use nature as a form of sanctity is a common trick in the arena of prejudice. When you're culturally socialized to view nature and sanctity as opposite categories, bigots can disorient you by setting up their sanctity as nature, and then use some cultural link between nature and freedom to convince you that prejudice is free. Consider for a moment the husk motifs you alluded to - the device does not only play on "corruption," but specifically the "deviation from nature." What I am saying is that I do not even accept the link between disgust and true nature in the first place. Disgust comes from tradition and not nature, and when tradtions speak of nature, what they tend to speak of is the "mask of nature," where they set up themselves as embodiments of nature to procure legitimacy.
[4]: You may highly disagree with me here, but I say aesthetics is irredeemably political. Social harm does not just come from welding politics to aesthetics; the greater harm comes from insisting they are not welded when they actually are. What I am aginst is not Malefication in a vacuum, but how Institutional Malefications disguise themselves as documentaries.

Modifié par alexbing88, 16 juin 2013 - 11:26 .


#484
billy the squid

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KainD wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

We mundanes are entitled to sweat and bleed for our own causes, not the causes of some monster that plays the role of a man who feels privileged to a better life because he was born special!


Sorry but everybody is born different and some are born special. People are born stronger, smarter, more beautiful some are born handicapped. 
By your logic people who are born without legs should be entiteled to tie rocks to people who have legs, so that they may equally crawl. 


So by that logic, the logical conclusion is that some are also born dangerous to everyone around them, inherrenty, and we are to let them run amok, because people are born different, and then they should be entitled to maim who ever happens to be in the vicinity.

Such hypocrisy.

Threats to the greater society always die off, either contained or purged by the Inquisition.

#485
D3Perfecto93

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I stand with the mage on this one since the templars is killing punishing innocent mages instead of punishing bad mages.

#486
Urazz

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I'm more balanced I think. I think the Templars have some valid points and will still be needed but need to have their role redefined. Mages shouldn't be kept in a tower all of their lives nor should they made tranquil in most cases. The harrowing also shouldn't be kept secret from apprentices so they can know what to face and prepare..

#487
Lotion Soronarr

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D3Perfecto93 wrote...

I stand with the mage on this one since the templars is killing punishing innocent mages instead of punishing bad mages.


I like the use of that word...."punish". And when I say "like" I mean "hate"... utterly.
Because it misses hte context completely and paints the situation in distorted matter.

#488
ThisIsZad

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I stand with the Qun.

#489
DKJaigen

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billy the squid wrote...

KainD wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

We mundanes are entitled to sweat and bleed for our own causes, not the causes of some monster that plays the role of a man who feels privileged to a better life because he was born special!


Sorry but everybody is born different and some are born special. People are born stronger, smarter, more beautiful some are born handicapped. 
By your logic people who are born without legs should be entiteled to tie rocks to people who have legs, so that they may equally crawl. 


So by that logic, the logical conclusion is that some are also born dangerous to everyone around them, inherrenty, and we are to let them run amok, because people are born different, and then they should be entitled to maim who ever happens to be in the vicinity.

Such hypocrisy.

Threats to the greater society always die off, either contained or purged by the Inquisition.


Or the society fade away because they are weak . And the current thedas society is weak. Its only a matter of time before the chantry and the templars will be destroyed by outside forces. Mundanes in thedas need to grow some balls and adept to a world that is not suited for mundanes.

#490
Qyla

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Mages, of course. And mages are not born dangerous, they are born with power that can either be dangerous or helpful. Anders in the beginning of the game is protected by Fereldens because he cures people, help them in any way he can. He choose to be dangerous instead of keeping on helping people. He deserves nothing, innocent mages that only wanted to live in peace do not.

#491
Guest_KproTM_*

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ThisIsZad wrote...

I stand with the Qun.


Qunari Mage. How's that for trolling

#492
Senya

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There needs to be a system to police magic as is done for any other dangerous element. Mages cannot be in charge of policing themselves by themselves, but mundanes policing Mages without Mage input is also open to abuse.

An Inquisition made up of Mages and non-Mages along with a reformed Circle with greater freedom is the way to go, I think.

#493
LobselVith8

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Xilizhra wrote...

You've said it yourself that mages can never be wholly equal with mundanes. And mages are a relatively small part of the population; moreover, by focusing on magic, there are other trades and services they don't focus on. There will always be niches for mundanes, and for the vast majority, they won't be any farther away from positions of power than they were before.


There's also the factor that democracy doesn't really exist in Thedas, and the nobility seem to rule over the rest of the populace across the Andrastian kingdoms. As for mages living with non-mages, a person could always vie for the dream of Aldenon the Wise: a nation where mages and non-mages are both free.

Xilizhra wrote...

That said, if we can find a way to somehow infuse magical powers into mundanes (which I think Allure might have done to Lady Harriman, though that wasn't explained very well), it'd be the optimal solution.


More than a few people seem to think Lady Harriman was granted magical ability by the Desire Demon, although that may have had something to do with Kirkwall being a Tevinter Hellmouth.

Xilizhra wrote...

In short, I side with the mages because even if it inconveniences a majority of the population in some way, I believe that inconvenience is far less than what mages are forced under if the mundanes are dominating them.


I'm also not sure that brutally subjugating mages under an oppressive regime is the optimal solution when it's lead to a continential revolution between the mages who want their autonomy and the templars who want to hunt down the mages who are now independent.

#494
billy the squid

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DKJaigen wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

KainD wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

We mundanes are entitled to sweat and bleed for our own causes, not the causes of some monster that plays the role of a man who feels privileged to a better life because he was born special!


Sorry but everybody is born different and some are born special. People are born stronger, smarter, more beautiful some are born handicapped. 
By your logic people who are born without legs should be entiteled to tie rocks to people who have legs, so that they may equally crawl. 


So by that logic, the logical conclusion is that some are also born dangerous to everyone around them, inherrenty, and we are to let them run amok, because people are born different, and then they should be entitled to maim who ever happens to be in the vicinity.

Such hypocrisy.

Threats to the greater society always die off, either contained or purged by the Inquisition.


Or the society fade away because they are weak . And the current thedas society is weak. Its only a matter of time before the chantry and the templars will be destroyed by outside forces. Mundanes in thedas need to grow some balls and adept to a world that is not suited for mundanes.


The dispirate states mired in petty squabbles certainly. Mundanes like the Qunari beg to differ on whether the world is adapted for them.

#495
Lotion Soronarr

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Qyla wrote...

Mages, of course. And mages are not born dangerous, they are born with power that can either be dangerous or helpful. Anders in the beginning of the game is protected by Fereldens because he cures people, help them in any way he can. He choose to be dangerous instead of keeping on helping people. He deserves nothing, innocent mages that only wanted to live in peace do not.


Yes they are. They are dangerous by their very nature. Period.

#496
Lotion Soronarr

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LobselVith8 wrote...

There's also the factor that democracy doesn't really exist in Thedas, and the nobility seem to rule over the rest of the populace across the Andrastian kingdoms. As for mages living with non-mages, a person could always vie for the dream of Aldenon the Wise: a nation where mages and non-mages are both free.


...

A dream it is.


Xilizhra wrote...
In short, I side with the mages because even if it inconveniences a majority of the population in some way, I believe that inconvenience is far less than what mages are forced under if the mundanes are dominating them.


You got to be kidding me.
But I know you're not.
And that is even scarrier.

#497
LobselVith8

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's also the factor that democracy doesn't really exist in Thedas, and the nobility seem to rule over the rest of the populace across the Andrastian kingdoms. As for mages living with non-mages, a person could always vie for the dream of Aldenon the Wise: a nation where mages and non-mages are both free.


...

A dream it is.


Many things started out as little more than a "dream" and became reality.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In short, I side with the mages because even if it inconveniences a majority of the population in some way, I believe that inconvenience is far less than what mages are forced under if the mundanes are dominating them.


You got to be kidding me.
But I know you're not.
And that is even scarrier. 


I don't see what's scary about people thinking that forcing the mages into servitude to the Chantry isn't the solution.

#498
MisterJB

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LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see what's scary about people thinking that forcing the mages into servitude to the Chantry isn't the solution.

That is not what is scary. What is scary is anyone who would genuinely believe that the sudden introduction of a group of people capable of summoning firestorms and demons and who suffers from an omnipresent risk of being possessed by one and becoming a veritable storm of destruction would result in an "inconvenience" for the larger population.
A inconvenience is your car breaking down and you having to walk to work. This is about as far from "inconvenience" as you could possibly get.

#499
Xilizhra

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MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see what's scary about people thinking that forcing the mages into servitude to the Chantry isn't the solution.

That is not what is scary. What is scary is anyone who would genuinely believe that the sudden introduction of a group of people capable of summoning firestorms and demons and who suffers from an omnipresent risk of being possessed by one and becoming a veritable storm of destruction would result in an "inconvenience" for the larger population.
A inconvenience is your car breaking down and you having to walk to work. This is about as far from "inconvenience" as you could possibly get.

Nononono, you're changing the variables from the context. You said that the major danger of mages was their having an economic edge and had removed the whole demon thing from the equation, and I was replying in that context.

#500
MisterJB

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Xilizhra wrote...
Nononono, you're changing the variables from the context. You said that the major danger of mages was their having an economic edge and had removed the whole demon thing from the equation, and I was replying in that context.

I never removed anything. I said that the major danger mages pose is the simple impossibility of non-mages to compete with them in any field of work which doesn't change there are other minor; when compared; dangers such as the demon possession, yes, but also the fact that the inevitable accumulation of wealth by part of the mages would enable them to take liberties with the non-mages.
And even if all demons were suddenly destroyed, it still wouldn't be an "inconvenience". It would be the difference between having Thedas as it is today and having all non-mages being forced to live in Alienages.