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[TCBC_Freak]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's also the factor that democracy doesn't really exist in Thedas, and the nobility seem to rule over the rest of the populace across the Andrastian kingdoms. As for mages living with non-mages, a person could always vie for the dream of Aldenon the Wise: a nation where mages and non-mages are both free.

...

A dream it is.

Many things started out as little more than a "dream" and became reality.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In short, I side with the mages because even if it inconveniences a majority of the population in some way, I believe that inconvenience is far less than what mages are forced under if the mundanes are dominating them.

You got to be kidding me.
But I know you're not.
And that is even scarrier.

I don't see what's scary about people thinking that forcing the mages into servitude to the Chantry isn't the solution.

I may be wrong but most people don't have as much problem with Xilizhra wanting mage freedom or mage rights, most people have their main problem with Xili wanting to kill all Templar indiscriminately. Honestly that's where its come from most of the times we've argued. But I could be wrong and maybe that's just me who see Xil's points and only really has a problem with the stance of killing Templar. Maybe others hate Xil and everything he says. I've given up arguing about this topic (mage vs Templar), it's just not going anywhere.

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 16 juin 2013 - 07:10 .

[EcreipRellim]

I want to recreate the glory of ancient tevinter so I choose mages!!!

[Who is that Masked Man]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Nononono, you're changing the variables from the context. You said that the major danger of mages was their having an economic edge and had removed the whole demon thing from the equation, and I was replying in that context.

I never removed anything. I said that the major danger mages pose is the simple impossibility of non-mages to compete with them in any field of work which doesn't change there are other minor; when compared; dangers such as the demon possession, yes, but also the fact that the inevitable accumulation of wealth by part of the mages would enable them to take liberties with the non-mages.
And even if all demons were suddenly destroyed, it still wouldn't be an "inconvenience". It would be the difference between having Thedas as it is today and having all non-mages being forced to live in Alienages.

Has any character in-game, or in any of the lore, ever expressed a concern about mages dominating the world economically?

Because until such time as I see that, I still say that particular concern is a ridiculous hypothetical that the game itself will never actually address.

[LobselVith8]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

I may be wrong but most people don't have as much problem with Xilizhra wanting mage freedom or mage rights, most people have their main problem with Xili wanting to kill all Templar indiscriminately.

In the context of the Mage-Templar War, it seems that Xil's argument is for the mages to succeed with the defeat of the templars who have seperated from the Chantry to hunt them down. It's not as though Andraste and Shartan won battles against the Imperium by writing them strongly worded letters, after all.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Honestly that's where its come from most of the times we've argued. But I could be wrong and maybe that's just me who see Xil's points and only really has a problem with the stance of killing Templar.

It's in the context of a war between mages and templars. Xil has also argued for sparing templars who surrender, so it's not as though Xil is arguing for death no matter what.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Maybe others hate Xil and everything he says. I've given up arguing about this topic (mage vs Templar), it's just not going anywhere.

That's fine; people aren't going to change their mind, anyway. For future reference, however, Xil is a she, not a he.

[BioWareMod02]

Good conversation is appreciated, remember to be respectful of one another. Thanks!

[LobselVith8]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I may be wrong but most people don't have as much problem with Xilizhra wanting mage freedom or mage rights, most people have their main problem with Xili wanting to kill all Templar indiscriminately. Honestly that's where its come from most of the times we've argued. But I could be wrong and maybe that's just me who see Xil's points and only really has a problem with the stance of killing Templar. Maybe others hate Xil and everything he says. I've given up arguing about this topic (mage vs Templar), it's just not going anywhere.

I just find the hypocrisy hilarious

It's hypocrisy for Xil to argue, in a continential war between mages and templars, that the templars who have joined Lambert's faction of Seekers and templars should be defeated to maintain mage autonomy from both the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order? How is that an example of hypocrisy, exactly?

[MisterJB]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...
Has any character in-game, or in any of the lore, ever expressed a concern about mages dominating the world economically?

Because until such time as I see that, I still say that particular concern is a ridiculous hypothetical that the game itself will never actually address.

Most likely because the game, being an action oriented RPG, doesn't dedicate much time to something most players would find boring. After all, a bloody rebellion staged by the Libertarians is just much more thrilling than an economical one conducted by the Lucrosians.
Which doesn't mean that the possibility is not a plausible one. For instance, in one of the comic series, we see how a mage who never received any training and knows just one fire spell is capable of creating armors and blades superior to those of dwarven-make despite their race having an entire caste system dedicated to nothing but perfecting their craft. Therefore, we can see how easily mages could take over the metallurgy industry.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 juin 2013 - 07:31 .

[BlazingSpeed]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

I hate the entire played-out scenario and wish it were over already.

[Synthetic Moose]

Peace?
I support freedom for mages, but understand why the circle is needed.
Maybe a less strict Circle?

[LobselVith8]

EcreipRellim wrote...

I want to recreate the glory of ancient tevinter so I choose mages!!!

Speaking of Tevinter, if the speculation is correct about the 'five rings' promo picture being an indication of the possible protagonist backgrounds (along with the theory about Tevinter representing the red ring), I wonder how a Tevinter main character would react to the Mage-Templar War.

I could see it going either way, as long as the main protagonist isn't limited to being "evil" and the player is given room to craft a three-dimensional character from Tevinter. Support the templars to prevent the rise of a rival to the Imerpium? Or perhaps the main character might support the mages in their bid to create a nation where they are free from the templars and the Chantry?

What I'd like to see is the option for a Tevinter character who is more focused on the Qunari threat than the Mage-Templar War. Especially if the trailer with the Qunari is a possible indication that some (if not all) Qunari are making a move to invade Thedas again.

[Who is that Masked Man]

MisterJB wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...
Has any character in-game, or in any of the lore, ever expressed a concern about mages dominating the world economically?

Because until such time as I see that, I still say that particular concern is a ridiculous hypothetical that the game itself will never actually address.

Most likely because the game, being an action oriented RPG, doesn't dedicate much time to something most players would find boring. After all, a bloody rebellion staged by the Libertarians is just much more thrilling than an economical one conducted by the Lucrosians.
Which doesn't mean that the possibility is not a plausible one. For instance, in one of the comic series, we see how a mage who never received any training and knows just one fire spell is capable of creating armors and blades superior to those of dwarven-make despite their race having an entire caste system dedicated to nothing but perfecting their craft. Therefore, we can see how easily mages could take over the metallurgy industry.

Well, that's kind of my objection. Dragon Age is a video game, not the real world, and the economics argument is boring (to me at least, among most other players, as you say).

Which basically means the possibility of mages becoming a major economic threat to civilians is not a plausible one, simply because it's very likely too boring to become a major plot point in any future game. You are worrying about a threat we will never actually see in action.

So, I just don't see why it's an argument worth having.

But on the other hand, even though the economics aspect of the mage/templar struggle is of no interest to me, I can see it interests you. And, apparently other people are also interested enough to debate the point. 

Nevermind, then! I'll just leave you to it.

Modifié par Who is that Masked Man, 16 juin 2013 - 07:46 .

[TCBC_Freak]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

I may be wrong but most people don't have as much problem with Xilizhra wanting mage freedom or mage rights, most people have their main problem with Xili wanting to kill all Templar indiscriminately.

In the context of the Mage-Templar War, it seems that Xil's argument is for the mages to succeed with the defeat of the templars who have seperated from the Chantry to hunt them down. It's not as though Andraste and Shartan won battles against the Imperium by writing them strongly worded letters, after all.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Honestly that's where its come from most of the times we've argued. But I could be wrong and maybe that's just me who see Xil's points and only really has a problem with the stance of killing Templar.

It's in the context of a war between mages and templars. Xil has also argued for sparing templars who surrender, so it's not as though Xil is arguing for death no matter what.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Maybe others hate Xil and everything he says. I've given up arguing about this topic (mage vs Templar), it's just not going anywhere.

That's fine; people aren't going to change their mind, anyway. For future reference, however, Xil is a she, not a he.

Never can be too sure about a person's gender when all you see is a picture of a character from a video game, lol. But that aside, I was just stating why we've run into the fire a few times in the past when I was a vocal supporter of the Templar... and before that I supported mages, and we thought a lot a like but still got into it once or twice about war being the answer. But now that war is on us that point is moot.

[LobselVith8]

Morocco Mole wrote...

It's hypocrisy for Xil to argue, in a continential war between mages and templars, that the templars who have joined Lambert's faction of Seekers and templars should be defeated to maintain mage autonomy from both the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order? How is that an example of hypocrisy, exactly?

It's hypocritical to complain about mages being murdered when you, yourself want the other faction completely wiped out and refuse to see any positive aspects to that side. Instead labeling them as fanatics.

The templars have decided to hunt down the mages; Xil thinks it's justified to kill the templars in order to protect the mages. In essence, killing the templars in a war. It's a little different to condemn the templars for killing hundreds of people for something they didn't do (i.e. the Annulment of the Circle of Kirkwall) or their decision to hunt down all the mages because the Circles of Magi became independent.

[Senya]

My viewpoints could confirm either TCBC's or Lobsel's on the changing of people's opinions. Before reading through this forum, I was slightly pro-Mage with Compromise as the goal, then I became slightly pro-Templar with Comparomise as the goal after reading the forums. Then, as the forums went on, I'm pro-Varric's "I'm sick of Mages and Templars" and still want Compromise to end the war.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 16 juin 2013 - 07:53 .

[LobselVith8]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Never can be too sure about a person's gender when all you see is a picture of a character from a video game, lol.

Too true; you can never be too sure. I made the same mistake with Sir JK yesterday, mostly because his avatar was always that of a woman (as I thought the 'Sir' was supposed to indicate a 'Knight' or something similar) and the topic of gender never came up before.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

But that aside, I was just stating why we've run into the fire a few times in the past when I was a vocal supporter of the Templar... and before that I supported mages, and we thought a lot a like but still got into it once or twice about war being the answer. But now that war is on us that point is moot. 

If BSN teaches us nothing else, it's that there's always something for people to disagree on.

[ParatrooperSean]

So, after 21 pages have we finally settled on the fact that imprisoning and subjugating people because of the way they were born is wrong?

[GodWood]

ParatrooperSean wrote...
So, after 21 pages have we finally settled on the fact that imprisoning and subjugating people because of the way they were born is wrong?

After 21 pages the majority of the mage supporters still haven't even conceded that mages are more dangerous than non-mages.

Although to be fair a few have at least admitted to being mage supremacists who only care for the rights of a privileged minority over the rights of the majority.

[Dave of Canada]

ParatrooperSean wrote...

So, after 21 pages have we finally settled on the fact that imprisoning and subjugating people because of the way they were born is wrong?

Can't admit something is wrong when it isn't.

[Mr.House]

ParatrooperSean wrote...

So, after 21 pages have we finally settled on the fact that imprisoning and subjugating people because of the way they were born is wrong?

So if someone is born with a illness that makes them dangerous, they should not be locked away to protect people? Because you know, we do that in real life.

[ParatrooperSean]

GodWood wrote...

ParatrooperSean wrote...
So, after 21 pages have we finally settled on the fact that imprisoning and subjugating people because of the way they were born is wrong?

After 21 pages the majority of the mage supporters still haven't even conceded that mages are more dangerous than non-mages.

Although to be fair a few have at least admitted to being mage supremacists who only care for the rights of a privileged minority over the rights of the majority.

I think "more dangerous" is extremely difficult to say definitively. It's not something you can quantify. There are more than our fair share of extremely powerful and very unscrupulous warriors and rogues.

Your typical abomination isn't really harder to kill than your typical Jarvia trooper, for example. And even if you want to make that argument, DAO and DA2 has shown the circle creates more problems than it solves.

Out of curiosity, what special rights or privileges have certain mage supporters ask for?

[TCBC_Freak]

ParatrooperSean wrote...

So, after 21 pages have we finally settled on the fact that imprisoning and subjugating people because of the way they were born is wrong?

You may as well say after 21+ months, it's been years since this started; he!l back in DA:O days we talked about this... still haven't come to a real answer. Though it seemed less angry back then, or am I just looking back with clouded glasses?

[ParatrooperSean]

Mr.House wrote...

ParatrooperSean wrote...

So, after 21 pages have we finally settled on the fact that imprisoning and subjugating people because of the way they were born is wrong?

So if someone is born with a illness that makes them dangerous, they should not be locked away to protect people? Because you know, we do that in real life.

I'm not following. Do you have an example illness?