1799 réponses à ce sujet

[Zeldrik1389]

Where do I stand? Well, somewhere high up, with a bag of pop corn and watch their epic battle in 3D.

On a serious note, I think I'm more neutral, slightly toward the Mage side in this war. If possible, I'd like a compromise rather than one side completely defeat the other.

[Who is that Masked Man]

bleetman wrote...

ParatrooperSean wrote...

The Dalish have managed to allow mages to live equally among them for thousands of years, with (relatively) little consequence. Saying the circle has helped more than it has hurt is purely speculative.

The Dalish are a bit of an oddity to me. On the one hand we're told they occasionally have keepers becoming possessed, without anything more specific as that I believe. But let's assume it's a rarity, because if it wasn't the Dalish would presumably have ceased to exist long before now.

And then, of the two Dalish keepers we actually meet in game, one summoned a spirit with blood magic and unleashed werewolves, and the other ended up being willingly possessed as  (at least from her perspective, regardless of individual player opinion of the validity of that danger) last, desperate act to protect her protege from the same.

In all fairness, both Circles we have seen in game have had problems with bloodmages and abominations, too.

So basically the Dalish and Chantry systems have had comparable success, up until the Chantry system went kerblooie a little while back.

[Mr.House]

Last time I checked, people are not born with swords and stuff, mages however are born with the ability to do damage with a flick of their wrist. Wynn setting a kid on fire anyone?

[bleetman]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

In all fairness, both Circles we have seen in game have had problems with bloodmages and abominations, too.

This is true.

I suppose I should clarify my personal position. I don't view the Circle of Magi, in it's current form, as a good thing. It's broken and problematic at best, and abusive at worst. It needs change, and I'd say the largest part of that change needs to come in shifting the balance of power between the mage heirarchy and the templars. There needs to be restrictions, oversight, safeguards, to prevent the templars from pulling the kind of thing Alric and Meredith were without consequence, and right now there's precious little of any. In some cases, what restrictions are in place (like, say, mages that pass their harrowing being protected from the rite of tranquility) are visibly being ignored, and nothing ever comes of it. Mages within the Circle need genuine rights. Templars that violate these rights deserve punishment.

But I'd still view the Circle itself as a necessity. It needs to exist, because the sad reality is that mages don't have to want to be incredibly dangerous for it to be so, and short of scouring the fade clean of every last spirit (assuming such a thing is possible) I don't see a way to change that.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Mr.House wrote...

Last time I checked, people are not born with swords and stuff, mages however are born with the ability to do damage with a flick of their wrist. Wynn setting a kid on fire anyone?

1)mages open their talent not  before 6-12 old age and still without training and knoledge they cant  do serius magic and summon deamons.....and they will not do that if they are not very badass childrens of Magisters....insane or not be pushed(but still without knoledge and powers they can do this) to do such things

2)in this age if you want you can easily kill/harm many peoples without any magic...knife,torch,rat poison, axe

3)Wynn "settling of fire"(actually she is only torched his hat when she was really angryt) those boy who opress her for a long time and he deserve what he get...if he would know that she is a mage i doubt that he was even try to do what he did

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 16 juin 2013 - 10:15 .

[KainD]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

ParatrooperSean wrote...

With a flick of their wrist any person can stab, bludgeon, behead or strike someone down with an arrow or bolt. 

in real life.. do you compare thugs with daggers to atomic bomb?

Yes both are weapons. 

But it doesn't matter how potentially dangerous mages are, they are to be free regardless. 

Modifié par KainD, 16 juin 2013 - 10:14 .

[ParatrooperSean]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

ParatrooperSean wrote...


With a flick of their wrist any person can stab, bludgeon, behead or strike someone down with an arrow or bolt.

in real life.. do you compare thugs with daggers to atomic bomb?

No, but in real life I also don't view hyperbole as rational tools for comparison.

[AmRMa]

I'm for mages they are born the way they are and are persecuted, imprisoned, and killed because of it. MAGE FREEDOM!!! Lol, okay not that passionate about it but I think they should be able to run their own circles and teach other mages without worring about getting killed or lobotomized.

[bleetman]

Dark Korsar wrote...
mages open their talent not  before 6-12 old age and still without training and knoledge they cant  do serius magic and summon deamons

Perhaps not intentionally. Still, Connor says hello.

2)in this age if you want you can easily kill/harm someone without any magic...knife,torch,rat poison, axe

Well, this feels pretty familar to, shall we say, certain other arguments I've heard regarding real life events.

Scale, people, scale. There are serious restrictions to the amount of people you can run around killing with a hand held weapon. Hell,  if a person ran through the streets of Kirkwall with a knife, a torch or an axe, the city guard, with patrols in both low and hightown, would respond in minutes and - gameplay/story segregation and the nigh immortality of main characters aside - put a stop to the rampage before it got out of hand.

To use the previous example of Meredith's possessed sister again, over seventy people died before the Templars managed to overwhelm her.

Modifié par bleetman, 16 juin 2013 - 10:22 .

[ParatrooperSean]

bleetman wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

In all fairness, both Circles we have seen in game have had problems with bloodmages and abominations, too.

This is true.

I suppose I should clarify my personal position. I don't view the Circle of Magi, in it's current form, as a good thing. It's broken and problematic at best, and abusive at worst. It needs change, and I'd say the largest part of that change needs to come in shifting the balance of power between the mage heirarchy and the templars. There needs to be restrictions, oversight, safeguards, to prevent the templars from pulling the kind of thing Alric and Meredith were without consequence, and right now there's precious little of any. In some cases, what restrictions are in place (like, say, mages that pass their harrowing being protected from the rite of tranquility) are visibly being ignored, and nothing ever comes of it. Mages within the Circle need genuine rights. Templars that violate these rights deserve punishment.

But I'd still view the Circle itself as a necessity. It needs to exist, because the sad reality is that mages don't have to want to be incredibly dangerous for it to be so, and short of scouring the fade clean of every last spirit (assuming such a thing is possible) I don't see a way to change that.

I agree that something needs to exist, but my version would be so completely different you wouldn't recognize it as being the circle.

I'm quite sure very few mages actually want to become hideious beings possessed from fade creatures. No doubt powerful mages such as Irwin and Wynne would gladly form their own school of magic. Just as we require special needs children to attend special needs schools, I don't have a problem requiing mage children to attend mage school, with regular visits and interactions with their families.

But imprisoning an entire people who haven't committed a crime is not an option.

[bleetman]

ParatrooperSean wrote...

I'm quite sure very few mages actually want to become hideious beings possessed from fade creatures.

What they want isn't always relevant, though. That's part of the reason why the harrowing exists.

Modifié par bleetman, 16 juin 2013 - 10:25 .

[ParatrooperSean]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

bleetman wrote...

ParatrooperSean wrote...

The Dalish have managed to allow mages to live equally among them for thousands of years, with (relatively) little consequence. Saying the circle has helped more than it has hurt is purely speculative.

The Dalish are a bit of an oddity to me. On the one hand we're told they occasionally have keepers becoming possessed, without anything more specific as that I believe. But let's assume it's a rarity, because if it wasn't the Dalish would presumably have ceased to exist long before now.

And then, of the two Dalish keepers we actually meet in game, one summoned a spirit with blood magic and unleashed werewolves, and the other ended up being willingly possessed as  (at least from her perspective, regardless of individual player opinion of the validity of that danger) last, desperate act to protect her protege from the same.

In all fairness, both Circles we have seen in game have had problems with bloodmages and abominations, too.

So basically the Dalish and Chantry systems have had comparable success, up until the Chantry system went kerblooie a little while back.

And non-magic weilding humans (and humanoids) have needlessly started entire wars.

[ParatrooperSean]

bleetman wrote...

ParatrooperSean wrote...

I'm quite sure very few mages actually want to become hideious beings possessed from fade creatures.

What they want isn't always relevant, though.

Context. That was the lead in to my point that mages would surely be willing to be taught, and to educate and police their own.

Modifié par ParatrooperSean, 16 juin 2013 - 10:26 .

[Hazegurl]

It's like he totally just forgot Connor existed. lol!

And yeah daggers and bombs are different. The Law recognizes this which is why they have weapon classifications and different laws on ownership. As well as discussions about whether or not citizens should be allowed to own assault weapons.

[Zeldrik1389]

bleetman wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

In all fairness, both Circles we have seen in game have had problems with bloodmages and abominations, too.

This is true.

I suppose I should clarify my personal position. I don't view the Circle of Magi, in it's current form, as a good thing. It's broken and problematic at best, and abusive at worst. It needs change, and I'd say the largest part of that change needs to come in shifting the balance of power between the mage heirarchy and the templars. There needs to be restrictions, oversight, safeguards, to prevent the templars from pulling the kind of thing Alric and Meredith were without consequence, and right now there's precious little of any. In some cases, what restrictions are in place (like, say, mages that pass their harrowing being protected from the rite of tranquility) are visibly being ignored, and nothing ever comes of it. Mages within the Circle need genuine rights. Templars that violate these rights deserve punishment.

But I'd still view the Circle itself as a necessity. It needs to exist, because the sad reality is that mages don't have to want to be incredibly dangerous for it to be so, and short of scouring the fade clean of every last spirit (assuming such a thing is possible) I don't see a way to change that.

I'm totally agree with you. I think the biggest problem about this system is not the Circle, but the way templar treats them. Circle is necessity. Mages are born with dangerous power. Connor was an example of how dangerous uneducated mage can be even though he had good intention. They absolutely need to be taught about how to control their power, and how to use their power for goodness. Also people are often hostile toward them because of their differences, so they also need shelter and protection. (Wynn, for instance) The Circle exist for those reasons, to provide safeshelter and necessary education to mages. 

If anything needed to be changed, it's the way templar abuse their power, similar to the way wardens treat prisoner badly in real life prison. There are still good, reasonable templars (like Evangeline or Cullen), but they are not enough. Squeeze too hard and eventually they will fight back. That's why some mages become extremist, and turned to blood magic in the first place.

I think I'm more of a Aequitarians when it comes to this conflict. People fear the power of mage. So they have to fight that fear first, show that mages can be good, and their power can help people. Sway the people, gain their trust and support, then fight for balance in power with Templar via diplomatic, and peaceful method. Extreme action would only turn people further away from mages, and gain them nothing but hatred. 

[ParatrooperSean]

Hazegurl wrote...

It's like he totally just forgot Connor existed. lol!

And yeah daggers and bombs are different. The Law recognizes this which is why they have weapon classifications and different laws on ownership. As well as discussions about whether or not citizens should be allowed to own assault weapons.

If Conor had the option to be taught by someone like Irving or Wynne things would have turned out quite different. But instead, a desperate mother turned to a blood mage on the black market because she didn't want her child ripped away from her.

[bleetman]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I would also like to point out that Kirkwall is extreme by Templar standards. While other Circles are said to be much more lax and forgiving.

Well, apart from still hunting down runaways and running them through with swords, anyway.

[ParatrooperSean]

bleetman wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I would also like to point out that Kirkwall is extreme by Templar standards. While other Circles are said to be much more lax and forgiving.

Well, apart from still hunting down runaways and running them through with swords, anyway.

And this is the problem. In real life there can never, ever be a peaceful, harmonious relationship between captors and prisoners. Just total domination that creates the illusion of peace and harmony.

Modifié par ParatrooperSean, 16 juin 2013 - 10:40 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...
1)mages open their talent not  before 6-12 old age and still without training and knoledge they cant  do serius magic and summon deamons.....and they will not do that if they are not very badass childrens of Magisters....insane or not be pushed(but still without knoledge and powers they can do this) to do such things

Connor

2)in this age if you want you can easily kill/harm many peoples without any magic...knife,torch,rat poison, axe

Bad example. Again. A normal child can't massacre an entire village

3)Wynn "settling of fire"(actually she is only torched his hat when
she was really angryt) those boy who opress her for a long time and he
deserve what he get...if he would know that she is a mage i doubt that
he was even try to do what he did

Wynne is very lucky that she wasn't killed for that. As is probably pointed out.

1)Connor would have nothing if he would not find rare Jowan magic books-knolegde to do what he did...end especially if someone simply would watching the baby and locked Jowan room(which contained books and ingredients) when Eamon was poisoned

2)orly? poison a well of water...burning barns and houses...this is a many ways to do this without any magic, but i never see mage(espesially untrained child without mages knoledges) who can massacre an entire village with his magic...this is imposiible and was clearly a Chantry propoganda(this maybe can be posible if the child would be powerfull dreamer but Feynriel show us that he cant do this stuff when he was young...and this ability still needs training)

3)the point is that Wynn was a gifted mage but she can do something serius even when she was very angry

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 16 juin 2013 - 10:55 .

[Who is that Masked Man]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I would also like to point out that Kirkwall is extreme by Templar standards. While other Circles are said to be much more lax and forgiving.

The Kirkwall Circle was absolutely a hellhole, by Circle standards. Even Anders admitted that the Ferelden Circle was "a lot more fun."

The basic issue for me is, even if Kirkwall is an extreme example, it shows how awful and abusive a poorly-administered Circle can be. It also shows there was inadequate oversight to keep the Circles from becoming like that.

Also, the Rite of Annulment there showed mages how vulnerable they were in any Circle where the inmates were running the asylum, so to speak. It doesn't even matter that much who started it, or who finished it. If one Circle could go all Kirkwall-shaped, then others might, too.

Which lead to the situation in Asunder, with a lot of mages and templars started getting all twitchy and paranoid about one another. The templars started clamping down hard, and the mages started getting riled up... or vice versa, and/or both.

I really think that Divine Justinia V was on the right track with her efforts to address and correct anti-mage sentiment. Unfortunately by that point it was too late, because there was too little trust on both sides, and the extremists had grown too powerful and were already pushing for war.

At this point, the genie is out of the bottle. The toothpaste tube has been squeezed dry. Humpty Dumpty has fallen of the wall, man!

So if there's going to be a Circle any more, it's going to have to be substantially reformed.

Luckily the veil's been torn wide open, the Qunari are (possibly) invading, and demons and dragons are rampaging across the land. If this isn't a prime opportunity for the templars and mages to get together and hug it out, I don't know what is.

[ParatrooperSean]

So... what's wrong with how the Dalish handle mages? Anyone?