1799 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Because everyone signing Grey Warden treaties together are a best way of stopping the darkspawn. It benefits the dalish more to fight the darkspawn alongside human armies and Grey Warden than fighting them by themselves.

Wouldn't it benefit them to simply leave elsewhere, and let the humans, dwarves, and Alienage elves do all the dirty work while they preserve their number? The treaty would seem to suggest the Dalish aren't the villains the pro-templar fans often paint them as.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Seeing how pervasive darkspawn can become during Blights, I think that the dalish see stopping them as a better safeguard than just ignoring the problem and hoping that the darkspawn hordes don't find them. Marethari even says that they couldn't outrun the darkspawn to a Dalish Warden.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 juin 2013 - 04:16 .

[Zhoyzu]

sorry making an irrelevant post to test something.

also templars are oppressive, free the mages

[prizm123]

all my characters supported mages, but killed Anders.....except my one mage character, who sided with the templars and killed Anders

[KainD]

DPSSOC wrote...

It relies on a high level of interdependence that is nearly impossible to maintain in a numerous, diverse, and decentralized populace.  Dalish mages and non-mages can coexist because they live in an environment where their dependence on one another to survive is greater than any individual ambition.  Improve their quality of life or increase their numbers and they don't need each other as much and individuals become more expendable.

Bull. It's not about the numbers, it's about the mind set. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

It's abut everything. Different culture, different condition, different scale. Those thing matter.

One cannot simply take the Dalish system and transplant it to other cultures. You might as well argue that the US should adopt the aboridgini culture and way of life.

Of course, all of this assumes that the Dalish system is great. Given that we've seen 2 clans and that both were driver to ruin by their mages...and that dalish clans occasionally dissapear when the Keeper goes abominations....yeah. I'd say it sucks.

[jrus018]

Mage, and they better bring back back the Mana Clash spell lol

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

It relies on a high level of interdependence that is nearly impossible to maintain in a numerous, diverse, and decentralized populace.  Dalish mages and non-mages can coexist because they live in an environment where their dependence on one another to survive is greater than any individual ambition.  Improve their quality of life or increase their numbers and they don't need each other as much and individuals become more expendable.

Exactly. The Dalish solution isn't going to work in a large society.

The Dalish had an entire kingdom where mages lived with non-mages. The Dales.

You mean mages ruled non-mages. Lanaya states that the Keepers are descendants of the Dalish nobility, and seeing how magic is hereditary and Keepers must be mages it stands to reason the Dalish nobility, the ruling class, were mages. There's no evidence it was like Tevinter, but the point is there was clearly a divide between mages and non which I contend still exists in the present day.

[RogueState]

DA2 really put me off both factions to be honest! But then I read Asunder (great book btw) and fell back firmly into the mages camp.

I doubt there will be much if any Asunder references in DA:I but it made me want to give the mages their freedom. I look forward to seeing what choices we have and how they are presented, a third option would be great too, peace between the Templars and the Mages?

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I do think that Templers are needed to police mages, but mages should be free to live there lives, the Templers should be more like a police force, rather then prison guards and mages when caught doing something wrong should be tried by a jury of fellow citizens made up of normal people and mages.

I think that the extreme views of the Templers and Mages are very dangerous. There should be accountability on both sides.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DinoSteve wrote...
I do think that Templers are needed to police mages, but mages should be free to live there lives, the Templers should be more like a police force, rather then prison guards and mages when caught doing something wrong should be tried by a jury of fellow citizens made up of normal people and mages.

Anything that involves free mages roaming around and going wherever they want is a recepie for disaster.

[FrayedThread]

I support freedom for the mages, but under certain conditions.
I believe that there should always be Templars ,that there should always be people able and ready to take down mages should one ever choose to do something harmful.
The Circle should act as more of a school - a boarding school perhaps - where mages can be trained and taught to use their magic sensibly. Perhaps their mentor could be enchanters who're thought to be best fitted to the job by Templars?

If mages are free to come and go where they please with a force able to stop them if they prove a danger then I'm happy.

[DPSSOC]

KainD wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

It relies on a high level of interdependence that is nearly impossible to maintain in a numerous, diverse, and decentralized populace.  Dalish mages and non-mages can coexist because they live in an environment where their dependence on one another to survive is greater than any individual ambition.  Improve their quality of life or increase their numbers and they don't need each other as much and individuals become more expendable.

Bull. It's not about the numbers, it's about the mind set. 

No it's environment. Create a hostile enough environment and you can achieve a state of altruistic coexistence in a populations of almost any size.  The Dalish exist in a very hostile environment and rely on one another to survive, but reduce the threats they face or improve their ability to deal with such threats and the value of each individual decreases.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Seeing how pervasive darkspawn can become during Blights, I think that the dalish see stopping them as a better safeguard than just ignoring the problem and hoping that the darkspawn hordes don't find them. Marethari even says that they couldn't outrun the darkspawn to a Dalish Warden.

The Dalish could venture away from the Blight in the same way the Hawke family did - the treaty shows that they agreed to lend aid to the human armies during the Blight when the human nations sacked their kingdom and actively hunt them down via the templars.

[TEWR]

Lanaya states that the Keepers are descendants of the Dalish nobility, and seeing how magic is hereditary and Keepers must be mages it stands to reason the Dalish nobility, the ruling class, were mages.

This is actual lore, FWIW. Not just a well-educated guess, but lore on the matter. At least, insofar as we're aware. For all we know there were non-Mage rulers in the Council of the Dales that ruled them alongside the Mage rulers (maybe a scarce amount)

However, to say there was a divide based on the absence of evidence simply because Mages were ruling is, IMO, not right. We see in DAO how the elders' word is so valued amongst the clans that it carries a lot of weight in talks with the Keepers, and we see non-Mage Elves in important roles (craftsmen, storyteller).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 juin 2013 - 03:54 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't think the Keepers' claims of being decending from the nobles of the Dales, have any actual genetic credibility.

[ParatrooperSean]

Lordy12 wrote...

DA2 really put me off both factions to be honest! But then I read Asunder (great book btw) and fell back firmly into the mages camp.

I doubt there will be much if any Asunder references in DA:I but it made me want to give the mages their freedom. I look forward to seeing what choices we have and how they are presented, a third option would be great too, peace between the Templars and the Mages?

A true peace between mages and Templars would be realistically impossible. While (some) mages may be indoctrinated into submission, there will always be those who seek freedom from their oppressors. Such is human nature (or humanoid). 

[Qyla]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think the Keepers' claims of being decending from the nobles of the Dales, have any actual genetic credibility.

I never heard of a Keeper claiming such, I heard someone saying in DA:O that Zethran found a part of their ancestor former glory, tha's all.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I'm not sure, I'll have to wait and see what happens in the new game before I decide. From my previous games it will depend exclusively on each of my characters from DAO and DA2 and what they all went along with. I hope the new game is more than just the mage/templar war.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Qyla wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think the Keepers' claims of being decending from the nobles of the Dales, have any actual genetic credibility.

I never heard of a Keeper claiming such, I heard someone saying in DA:O that Zethran found a part of their ancestor former glory, tha's all.

I think if you talk with Lanaya at the Dalish camp in DAO she tells you all keepers are from the elven nobility.  It depends on your dialouge choices for you to get to her to tell you this.

[Qyla]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Qyla wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think the Keepers' claims of being decending from the nobles of the Dales, have any actual genetic credibility.

I never heard of a Keeper claiming such, I heard someone saying in DA:O that Zethran found a part of their ancestor former glory, tha's all.

I think if you talk with Lanaya at the Dalish camp in DAO she tells you all keepers are from the elven nobility.  It depends on your dialouge choices for you to get to her to tell you this.

Lanaya, you disappoint me D: . I highly doubt it could be true, after all this time spent in clan travelling in the forest the "elven nobility blood"  doesn't have any value anymore. And Merril in DA2 says that "It is said that once every elven could use a little magic" (<- or something like that)

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I'm sure their nobility blood matters to the Dalish! They are trying to regain their immortality by being seperate from outsiders. Lanaya does say this if you chose the correct dialiagoe options. All Keepers are from the noble bloodlines from their ancestors of Arlathan. Because of this Lanaya had it hard to earn her place as Zatharian's second. She does tell you this with the right dialogue options from DAO. Merrill is from a different clan than Lanaya's.

[Qyla]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I'm sure their nobility blood matters to the Dalish! They are trying to regain their immortality by being seperate from outsiders. Lanaya does say this if you chose the correct dialiagoe options. All Keepers are from the noble bloodlines from their ancestors of Arlathan. Because of this Lanaya had it hard to earn her place as Zatharian's second. She does tell you this with the right dialogue options from DAO. Merrill is from a different clan than Lanaya's.

But Merril is also a dalish isn't she? And a Firt as well, just as Lanaya is. Furthermore Dalish's clan are made of 20-30 people more or less (as we saw in DAO and DA2 at least) How many noble can be inside a single group? Endogamy can be difficult to achieve, without thinking about many problems...if elf have endogamy genetic issue which I don't know O_O.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
This is actual lore, FWIW. Not just a well-educated guess, but lore on the matter. At least, insofar as we're aware. For all we know there were non-Mage rulers in the Council of the Dales that ruled them alongside the Mage rulers (maybe a scarce amount)

However, to say there was a divide based on the absence of evidence simply because Mages were ruling is, IMO, not right. We see in DAO how the elders' word is so valued amongst the clans that it carries a lot of weight in talks with the Keepers, and we see non-Mage Elves in important roles (craftsmen, storyteller).

But, on the other hand, we have also seen a Keeper completely ignoring the Elders of her clan which should illustrate just how much real power they have AKA what little the Keeper allows them to have.
It's true that there are non-mage elves in important positions but we also witnessed a; supposedly; non-mage human attending an important party in Tevinter because he was a procurator of slaves to the Imperium. But that doesn't change the fact there is an amazing bias in favor of mages in Tevinter .

Honestly, I believe we can logically conclude Dalish culture places an emphasys on mages over mundanes. This is because the entire purpose of the Dalish is to "restore what was lost" and part of that is a legend about how all elves used to be mages. Meaning that, logically, the Dalish will consider a mage elf to be closer to being an "ideal elf" than a non-mage.