1799 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Most of the time it takes Grey Warden pressure to get nations to aid others in Blights. Emperor Drakon is the main exception. I think that's why the treaties were so important.

I don't know about that, Orlais was more than happy to go in (yes, I know, I know).  I mean, you had treaties for like, 3 groups.  But where was the treaty regarding Nevarra, Tevinter, etc.?

Who is to say there weren't such treaties?  Just because the treaties in DAO were the only ones we had to recover doesn't mean that's all the treaties that ever existed.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Apparently they did to the same extent that everyone else did (with the notable exception of Drakon).  This is why the treaties were made by the Grey Wardens in the first place.  The Dalish were simply made scapegoats by an unfriendly neighbor that coveted their lands.

-Polaris

At the time, there weren't as many powerful nations as there are in the Dragon Age. There was Tevinter, Orlais, Rivain, Dales and the Free Marches. Nevarra was just another Marcher city; Ferelden, an aglomeration of barbarian clans; Antiva was divided into different cties who only united into a kingdom in 2:33.
The Free Marches and the Anderfels were only saved from obliteration because of Drakon and Rivain would have had to cross more than half the continent in order to participate in the fight.

On the other hand; we are told the Dales had an army in view of Montsimmard and just watched as the Darkspawn slaugthered an entire city; they likely had popcorn too.
Sure, it was a strategically sound move to just let humanity fight the darkspawn for them. But morally, it was despicable.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Most of the time it takes Grey Warden pressure to get nations to aid others in Blights. Emperor Drakon is the main exception. I think that's why the treaties were so important.

I don't know about that, Orlais was more than happy to go in (yes, I know, I know).  I mean, you had treaties for like, 3 groups.  But where was the treaty regarding Nevarra, Tevinter, etc.?

Who is to say there weren't such treaties?  Just because the treaties in DAO were the only ones we had to recover doesn't mean that's all the treaties that ever existed.

-Polaris

The Dwarves of Orzammar hold their own copy of the treaty signed way back when, FWIW. Some of the treaties, like the Dwarven one, were signed sometime during the Fourth Blight, but IIRC the Grey Wardens made the nations of Thedas promise them aid to fight the Darkspawn during the Third Blight.

The Third Blight was also when the Grey Wardens initiated their neutrality in politics, so as to better serve as mediators for international disputes (at the time, Tevinter refused to help Orlais and vice-versa).

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Sure, it was a strategically sound move to just let humanity fight the darkspawn for them. But morally, it was despicable.

This presupposes, of course, that the battle looked to be winnable. If the city was facing destruction and that was almost assured -- as is made clear by in-game sources -- can you blame the Elves for not throwing their lives away out of some "Honor before Reason" mentality?

It was winnable, though hard as hell to accomplish. But strategically, at the time, it may not have looked that way.

It's essentially Loghain, but RECYCLED WITH ELVES!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2013 - 03:48 .

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Basically, the Dalish are like the Geth. They're willing to let the rest of the world die, and would later be destroyed in whatever futile effort they put up against the threat.

If that were true, they never would have made a treaty with the Grey Wardens, nor would they allow Dalish to become Wardens let alone honor them (which they do).

-Polaris

So you're telling me they did participate in the Second Blight rather than hold back all of their forces and let, primarily, Orlais and Tevinter do all the work?

Iloren's clan fought in the Blight by using their own tactics to defeat a large group of Darkspawn that were hounding them.

[Northern Sun]

I'll be curious to see how big a role the Mage/Templar war will actually play in DA:I now that the veil is sundered and demons are pouring through. Seems like both sides will have bigger fish to fry, even if the Templars suspect the mages were involved, it would be too late to kill them. I'm not saying both sides will start cooperating(not without Inquisitor help), but I could see them both withdrawing to protect themselves from demon invasion.

[Qyla]

The Hierophant wrote...

Qyla wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Because we have only the elves words and myth that the humans attacked them unprovoked.

Dalish elfs are a legend among normal people, do you really think that isn't the chantry that tought everybody of the Marches?

How's that even a counter to Mole's point? You have two conflicting stories of an event from two parties who potentially seek to vindicate their actions that led to war. 

that's exactly the contraddiction, he says that we hear about it only from Dalish people, which is not true as you say

[Orian Tabris]

It depends on my characters, which I side with.

"What makes a good man go neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?"

Modifié par Orian Tabris, 18 juin 2013 - 08:31 .

[Qyla]

Orian Tabris wrote...

It depends on my characters, which I side with.

"What makes a good man go neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?"

I'll also stand depending on the chara, but where you will stand? Where your main chara will?

[Qyla]

Of course everyone will do that, but where do you would stand? Where your main chara will?

[Felya87]

If I'm going to play DA:I, I will almost centerly side with the mage, since there are a lot of Elf mage.
Templars and the chantry are a Human organization, and I can't stand Human in DA:

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
This presupposes, of course, that the battle looked to be winnable. If the city was facing destruction and that was almost assured -- as is made clear by in-game sources -- can you blame the Elves for not throwing their lives away out of some "Honor before Reason" mentality?

It was winnable, though hard as hell to accomplish. But strategically, at the time, it may not have looked that way.

It's essentially Loghain, but RECYCLED WITH ELVES!

As you say, it was winnable given the fact that Drakon actually managed to save the city meaning the elves could have, at least, tried.

As I was not just referring to that particular battle. The Second Blight lasted 90 years and while the "oh so despicable" Orlesian Empire was racing all across the continent saving nation, after nation and even Tevinter participated in the battles, the elves were nowhere to be seen; presumably smoking some elfroot.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Iloren's clan fought in the Blight by using their own tactics to defeat a large group of Darkspawn that were hounding them.

I think that story is not so credible. I mean, it speaks of Dalish clans living in the Anderfels while the elves
actually had a nation. It's not impossible, certainly. Some elves were said to have returned to Tevinter before reaching the Dales but stil...
It could be that young elves just really have no idea when the Second Blight happened which, given their lack of recorded history, it's not so outside the realm of possibilities.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 juin 2013 - 01:13 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

It could be that young elves just really have no idea when the Second Blight happened which, given their lack of recorded history, it's not so outside the realm of possibilities. 

We know the Dalish have written accounts. Morrigan stole a tome about the Eluvians from Ariane's clan, and Merrill studied the lore she gathered on the Eluvian. Clearly, the Dalish have written records.

[MisterJB]

That's true but the book belonging to Ariane's clan was from the time of Arlathan and not even the Keeper could translate a single word. I admit I don't remember what lore Merril scrounged up but shouldn't it either be Tevinter or Arlathan as opposed to Dalish given those are the only cultures who eve possessed one such device?

Which is what I was referring to. Dalish record keeping appear to be based almost entirely on memory and passed orally between storytellers. Even the codex entries on the Dalish, if written through an elven viewpoint tend to say "As told by Keeper..." suggesting it's not actually written down.
Such a system will, at best, be unreliable which could explain discrepancies like a Dalish clan fighting darkspawn in the Second Blight miles away from the actual Dales.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 juin 2013 - 03:58 .

[DarthLaxian]

this one is a bit of a conundrum - but:

as i value freedome above everything else (one of my mottos is the benjamin franklin quote about giving away freedome for security and if you do so not deserving either one!), i have to say i stand with the mages (i will not slaughter the templars needlesly - i will spare them if i can, force them to help me if possible and only kill them as a last resort)

why?

- the circle system is pure oppression, which i despise with every fiber of my being (same for slavery - also, for rapists etc. i would condone that one, same for people who have done mass murder and IMHO lost their human-rights!)

- the chantry is wrong in saying mages can not rule/inherit etc.

- rape and other abuse is intollerable (IMHO mages should police themselves by forming their own "templar"-order and this order being under the control of the mages council (senior mages))

- fear/war-mongering of the chantry is just wrong, too (they tell the ordinary people how mages are demons essentially)

- domination of a minority is wrong, too (hell, apartheid anyone? - that is essentially what the chantry does to mages, also they do not even let them live in the same streets, they lock mages up and conveniently toss away the key in most cases (you have to be a chantry appologist (loyalist) or an equitarian to be allowed out - at least that's what evidence points to, as we have not heard of a libertarian being allowed to roam around fairly freely - and even then you have a "curfew" (date when you are expected back, otherwise they will send templars after you))

etc.

i mean, i can understand the templars position (even more with templars who have really seen abominations or had to hunt down a bloodmage gone bad (not: bloodmagic is nothing i would condemn outright!)) but them accepting all that abuse of power (and of the mages of course with forced tranquility, beating, murders and rape) and then not even having the decency to clean house themselves (hell hawke had to do it for them - even if he/she helped them!) and stringing up those beasts? - sorry, so not my people (if i get the chance i would love to have court procedings against the templar order - everything from gathering evidence, questioning witnesses to the actual hearing and the conclusion (verdict!) etc. ... that would make vor a very good quest IMHO, even more as you could decide to implicate either side (with false evidence or the destruction of real evidence!), go where the evidence leads to (without influencing anything) or even throwing out the procedings by having some vigilante justice)

so, in the end:

mages - without killing all the templars if possible (they can be of use - and i normally don't kill innocents, at least not if it does not gain me a whole lot (in such a situation i am a little "for the greater good" - at least if the survival of humanity depends on it, like with the blights!))

greetings LAX

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 18 juin 2013 - 04:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Basically, the Dalish are like the Geth. They're willing to let the rest of the world die, and would later be destroyed in whatever futile effort they put up against the threat.

If that were true, they never would have made a treaty with the Grey Wardens, nor would they allow Dalish to become Wardens let alone honor them (which they do).

-Polaris

So you're telling me they did participate in the Second Blight rather than hold back all of their forces and let, primarily, Orlais and Tevinter do all the work?

Iloren's clan fought in the Blight by using their own tactics to defeat a large group of Darkspawn that were hounding them.

The odd thing about that tale, is that it takes palce in the Anderfels.... The second Blight was in the Free Marches..

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Basically, the Dalish are like the Geth. They're willing to let the rest of the world die, and would later be destroyed in whatever futile effort they put up against the threat.

If that were true, they never would have made a treaty with the Grey Wardens, nor would they allow Dalish to become Wardens let alone honor them (which they do).

-Polaris

So you're telling me they did participate in the Second Blight rather than hold back all of their forces and let, primarily, Orlais and Tevinter do all the work?

Iloren's clan fought in the Blight by using their own tactics to defeat a large group of Darkspawn that were hounding them.

The odd thing about that tale, is that it takes palce in the Anderfels.... The second Blight was in the Free Marches..

Whose to say that Illoren's clan fought in the second blight.  The entire point was that if the Dalish really did have the attitude of "let the rest of the world burn", they never at any time would have made a treaty with the Wardens and they did.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

That's true but the book belonging to Ariane's clan was from the time of Arlathan and not even the Keeper could translate a single word.

You seem to be confusing Ariane and the Dalish Warden with the Keeper of Ariane's clan, as the former two admit they don't know what Eluvian is, but we never actually meet the latter to gauge the depth of her knowledge about the Eluvian. Ariane explains her Keeper, Solan, told her it was a treatsie about the Eluvians.

Ariane's comments also imply the Chantry controlled Circles of Magi played a role in the downfall of the Dales, and the loss of much of their lore and history to the Circle as a result.

MisterJB wrote...

I admit I don't remember what lore Merril scrounged up but shouldn't it either be Tevinter or Arlathan as opposed to Dalish given those are the only cultures who eve possessed one such device?

It could be from Arlathan, and more recent information from members of the clan that was gleamed from cross-examination among different sources - by Dalish who have studied the lore prior to Merrill.

MisterJB wrote...

Which is what I was referring to. Dalish record keeping appear to be based almost entirely on memory and passed orally between storytellers. Even the codex entries on the Dalish, if written through an elven viewpoint tend to say "As told by Keeper..." suggesting it's not actually written down.

The clans have storytellers, like hahren Paivel, but I don't see why you think they don't collect knowledge and write down what they know as well, since we have certain accounts phrased under titles as well, such as "The Long Walk" or some of the entries about the Creators. The Warden-Commander can even give Velanna a blank book so she can write down new stories to tell, which indicates she knows how to read and write.

MisterJB wrote...

Such a system will, at best, be unreliable which could explain discrepancies like a Dalish clan fighting darkspawn in the Second Blight miles away from the actual Dales.

It's already addressed that not all the elves migrated to the new homeland of the Dales, which explains why there would be a clan of elves elsewhere.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Basically, the Dalish are like the Geth. They're willing to let the rest of the world die, and would later be destroyed in whatever futile effort they put up against the threat.

If that were true, they never would have made a treaty with the Grey Wardens, nor would they allow Dalish to become Wardens let alone honor them (which they do).

-Polaris

So you're telling me they did participate in the Second Blight rather than hold back all of their forces and let, primarily, Orlais and Tevinter do all the work?

Iloren's clan fought in the Blight by using their own tactics to defeat a large group of Darkspawn that were hounding them.

The odd thing about that tale, is that it takes palce in the Anderfels.... The second Blight was in the Free Marches..

Whose to say that Illoren's clan fought in the second blight.  The entire point was that if the Dalish really did have the attitude of "let the rest of the world burn", they never at any time would have made a treaty with the Wardens and they did.

-Polaris

I don't know about the world. But the Dalish certainly had a chip on their shoulder, regarding Orlais. And it is recorded that the Dalish did not participate in any capacity, in the battles of the Second Blight.

And Illoren's "Clan" might have fought Darkspawn, but why was it even a Clan, when the Dalish had not yet disbanded into several clans yet. And why were they fighting in the Anderfels, when the Darkspawns were centered in the Free Marches, and why were they in the Anderfels at all, considering it is in the opposite direction of the Dales? The Tale of Iloren have a lot of inconsistencies with concurrent events.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't know about the world. But the Dalish certainly had a chip on their shoulder, regarding Orlais. And it is recorded that the Dalish did not participate in any capacity, in the battles of the Second Blight.

A lot of people had a chip on their shoulder regarding Orlais which I think is a good thing and a sign of sanity considering the sort of ruler Drakon was and the sort of Empire he was making.  The Dalish were in good company.  As for participating in the second blight, a lot of people didn't participate much in the second blight (not just the Dalish),  It's why the Grey Wardens took the effort to negotiate and forge treaties after this.

And Illoren's "Clan" might have fought Darkspawn, but why was it even a Clan, when the Dalish had not yet disbanded into several clans yet. And why were they fighting in the Anderfels, when the Darkspawns were centered in the Free Marches, and why were they in the Anderfels at all, considering it is in the opposite direction of the Dales? The Tale of Iloren have a lot of inconsistencies with concurrent events.

Which blight, and as Lob already said, not all Elves joined the Kdm of the Dales.

-Polaris

[GreyLycanTrope]

I'm sure I'll be right in the middle OP, I do think magic can be dangerous if one's not careful, but I also believe the templars as they have previously existed are the not answer. I'm not loosing any sleep over the circles falling, the system was broken and needed to be either improved on or replaced. If I have to pick a side I'll end up supporting which ever seems more reasonable to me.

[IanPolaris]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I'm sure I'll be right in the middle OP, I do think magic can be dangerous if one's not careful, but I also believe the templars as they have previously existed are the not answer. I'm not loosing any sleep over the circles falling, the system was broken and needed to be either improved on or replaced. If I have to pick a side I'll end up supporting which ever seems more reasonable to me.

Although I am generally considered to be 'pro-mage', given my druthers, I would have rather phased in the changes over a period of time (as long as maybe even a century) starting with removing the Chantry from control of the circles (but not immediately eliminating the circles), and by loosening restrictions and hopefully getting mages and mundanes to learn to live with each other again.

This would have also given a decent chance and startup period for a non-chantry magical enforcement order to police and regulate magic to be fomed.

Unfortunately, for any of that to happen. both sides have to be willing to compromise, and just as importantly both sides actually have to understand that the system as is, isn't working.

The Templars (and Seekers under Lambert) refuesed to compromise and frankly were unwilling to admit that the system as it was wasn't working and thus saw no need to compromise.  The Divine and her followers wanted to compromise but couldn't get support from the hardliners (like Lambert), and as for the mages, Fiona I think reflected the growing feeling of many mages (esp since Kirkwall) of "Too Little, too damn late".  The real problem is Kirkwall completely undercut the one big argument Wynne had the last time for keeping the circles under chantry control (the circles nearly broke away in 9:31 during DAA):

Wynne's argument was that if the circles tried to break away, the Chantry would rather see all the mages dead than see that happen.  What Kirkwall told the mages (at least enough of them) along with Lambert's actions in Asunder was that the Chantry (or at least the Templars and Seekers) were going to see the mages dead anyway, and that risking death was no longer worse than staying under chantry control.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't know about the world. But the Dalish certainly had a chip on their shoulder, regarding Orlais. And it is recorded that the Dalish did not participate in any capacity, in the battles of the Second Blight.

A lot of people had a chip on their shoulder regarding Orlais which I think is a good thing and a sign of sanity considering the sort of ruler Drakon was and the sort of Empire he was making.  The Dalish were in good company.  As for participating in the second blight, a lot of people didn't participate much in the second blight (not just the Dalish),  It's why the Grey Wardens took the effort to negotiate and forge treaties after this.

He was putting an end to the ceaseless infighting between the myriad of minor nations. He unified these nations into one big coherrent nation, who grew to become the most powerful nation in Thedas. I'd say he was a pretty damn good ruler.
All human nations participated in the Second Blight... It was only the Dalish who not only didn't participate in the battles, but flat out refused to assist even in a minor capacity. ONLY the Dalish.

IanPolaris wrote...

And Illoren's "Clan" might have fought Darkspawn, but why was it even a Clan, when the Dalish had not yet disbanded into several clans yet. And why were they fighting in the Anderfels, when the Darkspawns were centered in the Free Marches, and why were they in the Anderfels at all, considering it is in the opposite direction of the Dales? The Tale of Iloren have a lot of inconsistencies with concurrent events.

Which blight, and as Lob already said, not all Elves joined the Kdm of the Dales.

-Polaris

Uhm... The Second Blight... As the Tale claims he did. And still, the Dalish weren't fractured into clans, there werent even Keepers at that time. The entire tale is a fallacy. A lie, the Dalish tell to eachother, to try and make it sound like they didn't abbandon the entire world to burn during the second Blight.