1799 réponses à ce sujet

[Fuggyt]

I would be pro-Templar if I thought the Circles were necessary or effective. But I believe apostates aren't as dangerous to society as they're sometimes made out to be. I believe apostates aren't any more likely to become abominations or blood mages than Circle mages. I believe the Harrowing is a barbaric trial-by-ordeal. I believe it's clear there are better ways to educate and monitor mages than the Circles. So I'll side with the mages and hope there are some compromise options available. Knowing Bioware, I'm not betting on it.

[GreyLycanTrope]

IanPolaris wrote...
Although I am generally considered to be 'pro-mage', given my druthers, I would have rather phased in the changes over a period of time (as long as maybe even a century) starting with removing the Chantry from control of the circles (but not immediately eliminating the circles), and by loosening restrictions and hopefully getting mages and mundanes to learn to live with each other again.

This would have also given a decent chance and startup period for a non-chantry magical enforcement order to police and regulate magic to be fomed.

Unfortunately, for any of that to happen. both sides have to be willing to compromise, and just as importantly both sides actually have to understand that the system as is, isn't working.

The Templars (and Seekers under Lambert) refuesed to compromise and frankly were unwilling to admit that the system as it was wasn't working and thus saw no need to compromise.  The Divine and her followers wanted to compromise but couldn't get support from the hardliners (like Lambert), and as for the mages, Fiona I think reflected the growing feeling of many mages (esp since Kirkwall) of "Too Little, too damn late".  The real problem is Kirkwall completely undercut the one big argument Wynne had the last time for keeping the circles under chantry control (the circles nearly broke away in 9:31 during DAA):

Wynne's argument was that if the circles tried to break away, the Chantry would rather see all the mages dead than see that happen.  What Kirkwall told the mages (at least enough of them) along with Lambert's actions in Asunder was that the Chantry (or at least the Templars and Seekers) were going to see the mages dead anyway, and that risking death was no longer worse than staying under chantry control.

-Polaris

I agree, as you mentioned the system was already falling apart as far back as DAA, which is largely why I always saw it's fall as inevitable. Change would have to be gradual for sake of transition at the very least, unfortunately there were hardliners on both sides who essentially fed off each others momentum effectivly made that option completely ineffective despite the best efforts of moderates like the Divine and Wynne (and in some cases in the ineffective stance of moderates as was the case with Elthina).

I tend to sympathize with the mages more often as they largely just want to be considered human beings, but I'm expecting to coming conflict to bring out both the potential best and worst of the two groups.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't know about the world. But the Dalish certainly had a chip on their shoulder, regarding Orlais. And it is recorded that the Dalish did not participate in any capacity, in the battles of the Second Blight.

A lot of people had a chip on their shoulder regarding Orlais which I think is a good thing and a sign of sanity considering the sort of ruler Drakon was and the sort of Empire he was making.  The Dalish were in good company.  As for participating in the second blight, a lot of people didn't participate much in the second blight (not just the Dalish),  It's why the Grey Wardens took the effort to negotiate and forge treaties after this.

He was putting an end to the ceaseless infighting between the myriad of minor nations. He unified these nations into one big coherrent nation, who grew to become the most powerful nation in Thedas. I'd say he was a pretty damn good ruler.
All human nations participated in the Second Blight... It was only the Dalish who not only didn't participate in the battles, but flat out refused to assist even in a minor capacity. ONLY the Dalish.

He sounds right up there with Ghenghis Khan.  Such a guy.  You do realize that the 'minor human nations" would view this differently.  The only reason the Dalish get picked on was they had the termerity to fight back and the strength to do so.

As for "all human nations", no.  Two human nations are explicitly recorded as participating (well three counting the cities of the Free Marches, but they didn't have a choice since the blight started there).  Namely Orlais and Tevinter, and Tevinter is recorded as participating in only one major battle.  Near as I can tell everyone else tried to sit it out.

IanPolaris wrote...

And Illoren's "Clan" might have fought Darkspawn, but why was it even a Clan, when the Dalish had not yet disbanded into several clans yet. And why were they fighting in the Anderfels, when the Darkspawns were centered in the Free Marches, and why were they in the Anderfels at all, considering it is in the opposite direction of the Dales? The Tale of Iloren have a lot of inconsistencies with concurrent events.

Which blight, and as Lob already said, not all Elves joined the Kdm of the Dales.

-Polaris

Uhm... The Second Blight... As the Tale claims he did. And still, the Dalish weren't fractured into clans, there werent even Keepers at that time. The entire tale is a fallacy. A lie, the Dalish tell to eachother, to try and make it sound like they didn't abbandon the entire world to burn during the second Blight.

Lob already explained that not all the Elves went to the new Kingdom of the Dales.  You need more than this to flatly call this a 'lie'.  What you continue to overlook is that the Dalish DO have an agreement with the Grey Wardens and they wouldn't have if they really were the extreme isolationists that you want to paint them as.  For that matter the famous Aveline would have been left to starve.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I tend to sympathize with the mages more often as they largely just want to be considered human beings, but I'm expecting to coming conflict to bring out both the potential best and worst of the two groups.

*nod*  War and especially total war (which I expect this will be) tends to do that.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...
As you say, it was winnable given the fact that Drakon actually managed to save the city meaning the elves could have, at least, tried.

Again, honor before reason.

As I was not just referring to that particular battle. The Second Blight lasted 90 years and while the "oh so despicable" Orlesian Empire was racing all across the continent saving nation, after nation and even Tevinter participated in the battles, the elves were nowhere to be seen; presumably smoking some elfroot.

All of the records we have on the Second Blight -- limited, mind you -- come from one source: the Chantry, victors of the conquest of the Dales.

While I will not say it's cast immediately in the palm of liars, it is rather odd that they would claim that they didn't help because I don't think even the Elves are so stupid as to place the Darkspawn as something they could handle on their own.

I think that story is not so credible. I mean, it speaks of Dalish clans living in the Anderfels while the elves
actually had a nation. It's not impossible, certainly. Some elves were said to have returned to Tevinter before reaching the Dales but stil...
It could be that young elves just really have no idea when the Second Blight happened which, given their lack of recorded history, it's not so outside the realm of possibilities.

This is actually something I had brought up before in my Fall of the Dales thread long ago, and my final verdict is that while the Elves of the Dales resided in their own nation primarily they still sent out a clan or two to wander looking for more artifacts and stuff relating to Elven culture.

Regarding Elves returning, that was in regards to Elves thinking that life in the cities as second-class citizens (at best) was preferable to a seemingly unending journey, not in regards to clans of Elves.

EDIT: And just because a Blight is centered somewhere doesn't mean Darkspawn won't be attacking elsewhere at the same time. The Archdemon has command of ALL of the Darkspawn, and Darkspawn exist all around Thedas thanks to the Deep Roads.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2013 - 08:23 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The problem would be that there were no "clans" or "keepers" at this time. Nor were there any Blight in the Anderfels for that matter.
While I'm sure the Dalish were planning on dealing with the Blight eventually, they had no plans to assist any of the human nations.
And I don't recall how old the treaties the Grey Wardens made are. Perhaps they were made after the Dalish refused to lend aid, specifically to avoid something like this to ever occur again.

[TEWR]

Actually, this says that the Anderfels was nearly destroyed by the Second Blight thanks to Tevinter abandoning it and was only saved due to Drakon.

Then of course, Drakon did his whole "Save the nation, take the land" schtick.

So we have proof that the Anderfels did suffer from the Second Blight, and thus that Iloren's clan did fight against the Darkspawn there.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2013 - 08:34 .

[Shiiruu]

I wouldn't want to support either tbh.... But if I HAD to choose, it would be mages. I just like them a lot more, but I still don't like the blood mages though...

[Fallstar]

Shiiruu wrote...

I wouldn't want to support either tbh.... But if I HAD to choose, it would be mages. I just like them a lot more, but I still don't like the blood mages though...

The game is yet to show why blood magic is so terrible in comparison to normal magic. Everything that can be accomplished through blood magic that makes it 'forbidden' - such as summoning demons and mind control - can also be accomplished without blood magic. (Anders, who hates blood magic and has never used it, can summon a pair of hunger demons. The school of entropy has entire trees dedicated to mind control)

Until we see something terrible that can be accomplished through blood magic and blood magic alone, there is no reason to view it as any worse than 'normal' magic.

[Versus Omnibus]

I'm against both sides. The Mages are too powerful and need to be kept in check; and the Templars have been abusive and I blame them for what happened in Kirkwall. So, if I'm given the option, I would fight against both sides and bring an end to the fighting.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually, this says that the Anderfels was nearly destroyed by the Second Blight thanks to Tevinter abandoning it and was only saved due to Drakon.

Then of course, Drakon did his whole "Save the nation, take the land" schtick.

So we have proof that the Anderfels did suffer from the Second Blight, and thus that Iloren's clan did fight against the Darkspawn there.

I agree it proves that the Darkspawn were in the Anderfels. It still does not make up for the "no clans yet existed, and Keepers weren't called Keepers yet" discrepancy.

[Shiiruu]

DuskWarden wrote...

Shiiruu wrote...

I wouldn't want to support either tbh.... But if I HAD to choose, it would be mages. I just like them a lot more, but I still don't like the blood mages though...

The game is yet to show why blood magic is so terrible in comparison to normal magic. Everything that can be accomplished through blood magic that makes it 'forbidden' - such as summoning demons and mind control - can also be accomplished without blood magic. (Anders, who hates blood magic and has never used it, can summon a pair of hunger demons. The school of entropy has entire trees dedicated to mind control)

Until we see something terrible that can be accomplished through blood magic and blood magic alone, there is no reason to view it as any worse than 'normal' magic.

It's more like I'm against them using their own blood/lifespan(?) and hurting themselves to use it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Second Blight affected the Anderfels, Free Marches, Tevinter, Orlais and the Ferelden Vally. It was said the darkspawn started pouring out of every mountain range in Thedas.

I don't believe the Dalish Elves are uniquely heroic or villainous compared the human nations, either in general or in the matter of combating the blights.

An elven army sitting by while darkspawn destroy a nearby city may be one of the worst examples of indifference during times of crisis but hardly the only one over the centuries. I can believe, given what we know of elven isolationism and unfriendliness towards humans. Even Paivel will make vague references to the human nations turning cold towards the Dales after "we put our people first."

The Dalish Elves don't have a "let the whole world burn" attitude nor do they have purely altruistic motives for helping humans stop the Blights. They have a vested interest in stopping the darkspawn for themselves as much as everyone else. Heroes and villains change as ages change.

[lady_v23]

I support the mages. But untrained magic is dangerous, so I believe the circle is necessary but without the templars.

According to anders, templars have beaten and rape mages in the circle. Not all are like that, but still.

So on top of they are practically locked up from the rest of the world, you're locked up with your abusers that have all the power over you. And if you do get out "legally' you're out but with a leash. No wonder they turn to blood magic.

I think I would like the option for mages to be free but have a death penalty for blood magic. And the templars can be like a separate group that control "bad l" mages.

[MWImexico]

And the possibility for mages to complain in case of aggression. Where's the police when you need it?

[addiction21]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I think a process that weeds out the psychopathic templars would be better

As easy as weeding out dangerous mages.  Both are mortal so they are fallible. Just because one passes the tests to be a Templar/Free Mage now doesn't mean something will happen that shifts them towards "psychopathic"

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You seem to be confusing Ariane and the Dalish Warden with the Keeper of Ariane's clan, as the former two admit they don't know what Eluvian is, but we never actually meet the latter to gauge the depth of her knowledge about the Eluvian. Ariane explains her Keeper, Solan, told her it was a treatsie about the Eluvians.

Yeah, but she did not know what an Eluvian actually was. It was Finn who translated it as "mirror" and one of the dialogue options of the Warden is be amazed at how the Keeper couldn't even translate something so common.
If you don't know the wrod for "mirror", chances are you're not very adept at understanding the language.

Ariane's comments also imply the Chantry controlled Circles of Magi played a role in the downfall of the Dales, and the loss of much of their lore and history to the Circle as a result.

Which might actually be relevant in another debate.

It could be from Arlathan, and more recent information from members of the clan that was gleamed from cross-examination among different sources - by Dalish who have studied the lore prior to Merrill.

Is there any information at all regarding the source of her studies? Something I can see for myself?

The clans have storytellers, like hahren Paivel, but I don't see why you think they don't collect knowledge and write down what they know as well, since we have certain accounts phrased under titles as well, such as "The Long Walk" or some of the entries about the Creators.

Because the tribal nature of the Dalish culture along with the role of a story teller usually preclude actual recorded history.. The fact that codex entries written from the Dalish viewpoint all read "As told by Keeper etc" only augments my doubts.
If there is any indication Dalish keep written records, I'll concede it.

The Warden-Commander can even give Velanna a blank book so she can write down new stories to tell, which indicates she knows how to read and write.

The fact that, unless suggested by the Warden, the possibility of using it to write down stories strongly suggests it's not something the Dalish usually do.
If I remember correctly, she considers using it as a napkin at one point.

It's already addressed that not all the elves migrated to the new homeland of the Dales, which explains why there would be a clan of elves elsewhere.

Those elves who turned around returned to human cities. Why would a "clan" capable of fending off Darkspawn attacks not be in the Dales?
We have clans before the concept of it existed; the concept originated after the destruction of the Dales as a way to prevent humans from catching them all in one place; Keepers before the need to keep knowledge existed, etc.
It's not entirely impossible; certainly, the dalish storytellers could simply use the word "clan" because that is what understand it to be; but it does raise some doubts.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 juin 2013 - 11:17 .

[TEWR]

If I remember correctly, she considers using it as a napkin at one point.

I've never heard her say that.

Is there any information at all regarding the source of her studies? Something I can see for myself?

Merrill? David Gaider said that she used the shard of the mirror as a foundation, extrapolated information from what she knew of it and what lore she could find on the subject, and then built an entirely new one (with the original shard of course).

As for how she came about this information? I assume Kirkwall's archives and merchants selling books in the city, because Marethari has no information on the Eluvians at all (in DAO, she says she's never heard of a mirror in any of the tomes her clan holds and she also repeatedly says she wants nothing to do with them, not even research).

If there is any indication Dalish keep written records, I'll concede it.

You can find two books in DAO pertaining to Dalish culture. The Tale of Iloren (from Cammen) and Uthenara (the chest behind Lanaya).

The fact that the player gets access to information on Dalish culture, no matter the origin, when Gisharel is never shown also indicates that there are papers on the subject materials with the information written down.

And of course, in the Dalish Elf origin, you can find a few codexes that originate from scrolls. Hell, one hunter even kept a private journal recording his thoughts on their current lifestyle.

I agree it proves that the Darkspawn were in the Anderfels. It still
does not make up for the "no clans yet existed, and Keepers weren't
called Keepers yet" discrepancy.

As I said, the Elves of the Dales had just escaped centuries and centuries of enslavement where their entire culture was all but destroyed. It's feasible that they would send out a clan or two to scour the length of Thedas for any artifacts, relics, and lore of any type to bring back home.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 juin 2013 - 02:45 .

[dragonflight288]

http://social.biowar...index/6738213/2

Some David Gaider comments from this particular thread (took me awhile to find.)

David Gaider wrote.....

TheBlackBaron wrote...
I think there were two in Witch Hunt, though - the one Morrigan has and then the one that was in the ruins. The wiki says you pick up a shard from the latter for the whole scrying ritual.

Ah, yes. Merrill has but the one shard from that mirror, taken from when she went to the caves looking for Tamlen (and Mahariel, presumably). The remainder was there for the Warden to find.

David Gaider wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Gotcha. So she basically recreates the
rest of the eluvian she has in her house during Act II-III from the
shard she takes via magic or whatever, I assume?

She just has the one shard. She incorporates it into the mirror she builds, extrapolating its construction both from the shard itself and what lore she's been able to collect. Probably why she wasn't able to get it to work.

And who knows? Perhaps that's a good thing. {smilie}

On page 1, David Gaider said this...

David Gaider wrote...

Naitaka wrote...
What? Merrill's Eluvian was the one found in the Bercillian Forest during the Dalish Elf Origin. It's been corrupted by the Darkspawn taint and was smashed into little pieces by Duncan. The one Morrigan used was a working Eluvian under the Dragonbone Waste.

This is correct. Does Merrill not explain that she's painstakingly reconstructed the mirror using the shard?

Modifié par dragonflight288, 19 juin 2013 - 04:45 .

[Ailith Tycane]

My hate for Anders makes it hard to sympathize with the mages in this, so assuming those are my only two options I would be leaning more towards Templars.

[BouncyFrag]

Ailith430 wrote...

My hate for Anders makes it hard to sympathize with the mages in this, so assuming those are my only two options I would be leaning more towards Templars.

This. Characters who are so unlikeable make it diffucult for me to support their cause(s).

[DPSSOC]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lanaya states that the Keepers are descendants of the Dalish nobility, and seeing how magic is hereditary and Keepers must be mages it stands to reason the Dalish nobility, the ruling class, were mages.

This is actual lore, FWIW. Not just a well-educated guess, but lore on the matter. At least, insofar as we're aware. For all we know there were non-Mage rulers in the Council of the Dales that ruled them alongside the Mage rulers (maybe a scarce amount)

However, to say there was a divide based on the absence of evidence simply because Mages were ruling is, IMO, not right.

 
There is always a divide between those who rule and those who don't, even if that's all it is it's huge.  Mages made the decisions (still make in my opinion but that's another argument) and non-mages had two options, live with it or leave.  Maybe the mages listened to the non-mages, maybe they took their ideas and concerns into consideration, but at the end of they day they made the decisions.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
We see in DAO how the elders' word is so valued amongst the clans that it carries a lot of weight in talks with the Keepers, and we see non-Mage Elves in important roles (craftsmen, storyteller).

Ok as I said this is a completely separate argument but when is this shown?  We see two Keepers in DA:O making unilateral decisions with regards to the clan.  They might not admit it, might not even think of it in these terms, but the mages of the Dalish ultimately rule.

[IanPolaris]

DPSSOC wrote...

Ok as I said this is a completely separate argument but when is this shown?  We see two Keepers in DA:O making unilateral decisions with regards to the clan.  They might not admit it, might not even think of it in these terms, but the mages of the Dalish ultimately rule.

The keepers may ultimately rule (albeit loosely as first among equals) but that doesn't mean mages do.  By the accounts we get from Merrill and Lanaya, being magically aware is perhaps the least important part of being a keeper and apparently a Keeper can have many suplicants to be his or her first but only takes one.  [Not only that but I've heard rumor of late from Felia Day that Dalish Keepers might not always be mages.]

To call the Dalish system a magocracy, you have to show it's the virtue of being a mage that puts one into a leadership position, and not some other thing, and the Dalish system as such doesn't quality.  (Even if being a mage is a necessary quality to be keeper, it's not sufficient.  That means that being a mage isn't the quality the Dalish look for for leadership, and so it's not a magocracy).

Edit:  That's especially so for the Dalish since we know that mundane Dalish can and do have leadership polsitions within the various clans.  This means the Dalish system is not a magocracy per se.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 21 juin 2013 - 05:04 .