1799 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

DPSSOC wrote...

 
There is always a divide between those who rule and those who don't, even if that's all it is it's huge.

Certainly there will always be some sort of divide between the rulers and the ruled. What I take issue with is the notion of how large a divide it must be, mostly because stuff like that tends to portray it as being incredibly negative in a sense far and away from what it really is.

Like, a sense of "Bad for society on a grand scale" and "should never be done".

Mages made the decisions (still make in my opinion but that's another argument) and non-mages had two options, live with it or leave.  Maybe the mages listened to the non-mages, maybe they took their ideas and concerns into consideration, but at the end of they day they made the decisions.

Ok as I said this is a completely separate argument but when is this shown?  We see two Keepers in DA:O making unilateral decisions with regards to the clan.  They might not admit it, might not even think of it in these terms, but the mages of the Dalish ultimately rule.

The Tale of Iloren talks of a former hunter-turned-Keeper -- who admittedly could've been a Mage, but given how Dalish lore talks of all Mages being switched around between clans to study how to be a First/Keeper, it seems unlikely considering hunters use bows and the Arcane Warrior art is lost -- that I proved earlier in this thread to have a solid historical basis in part. The other part, I provided a reasonable explanation for why a clan would exist prior to the fall of the Dales, but nevertheless the point still stands.

You can say that it's probably a rarity to have a non-mage Keeper. Maybe that's true (though again, with the whole "magic must be spread around thing, maybe not if there are no mages around) and it'd be fair, but it wouldn't be fair to say Mages always rule the clans.

EDIT: Never mind, it seems to heavily imply Iloren was a Mage as well. Even so, the non-Mages in the clans are just as instrumental in the clan's survival as the rest.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 juin 2013 - 11:03 .

[Celene II]

Mages all the way.

They have been subjugated, imprisoned, murder, and treated like animals  for the sins of one nation now for ever.


Time for a new era where mages are treated as equals

[Ananka]

I'm pro-mage. The mages have the right to live their lives in freedom and with their families and not be locked up in some tower when they haven't done anything wrong, and the rite of tranquility is an atrocity.
Set the mages free to live their lives outside the circle, but have severe punishments for blood magic and letting demons in.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Celene II wrote...

Mages all the way.

They have been subjugated, imprisoned, murder, and treated like animals  for the sins of one nation now for ever.


Time for a new era where mages are treated as equals

this is not correct for Orlais Chantry blaiming modern Tevinter and mages for actions of 5 unknown peoples(we know only Corynfeus who was inprison by Tevinter wardens)-mages(what if some of them was non-mages) from unknown parts of Ancient Tevinter Empire-whole Thedas(whose peoples can be from ferelden or orlais or seheron or Corcari wilds, who knows)

who do all this stuffs by Dumat instructions(they were in Black City(and we not know how they actually was in this City and where actually this city located) but we not know who was a sourse for blight...dwarves and elf never blame that mages was sourse of blight) ...and as we can understand they do their stuffs by themselfs in the unknown place in Thedas(BUT ALL DARKSPAWN CAME FROM DEEP ROADS)...and as we can understand they do this without Ancient Tevinter support

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 21 juin 2013 - 02:36 .

[Jerrybnsn]

It's already very boring to me and it only just started. It should be a side-story, not the main plot of the Grey Wardens vs the Blight. That's why I have to wait for the reviews, because I don't want to play another 20+ hours of "I hate all mages because they killed my family" or "Templars took my life away from me, I will kill them".

Therefore, I'm Grey Warden neutral.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 21 juin 2013 - 02:43 .

[Ieldra]

I am pro-Mage all the way.

The templar order should be restricted to hunting mages who have actually done something to merit being hunted.

Escaping from slavery (the Circles) does not merit it.
Using magic that doesn't harm anyone does not merit it, even if is blood magic.
Seeking personal power by legitimate means does not merit it.
Doing anything with magic what non-mages do without magic without being punished does not merit it, such as defending yourself from being harrassed.

[The Baconer]

Whichever side that can more readily put the Qunari to the flames.

Coincidentally, mages appear to be good at making fires.

[Ieldra]

The Baconer wrote...
Whichever side that can more readily put the Qunari to the flames.

Coincidentally, mages appear to be good at making fires.

The qunari could motivate me to limited cooperation. "Let's get rid of the qunari and sort out our differences later" appears like a reasonable attitude to me. I'd even ally with Tevinter to do that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 juin 2013 - 03:07 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

The Baconer wrote...

Whichever side that can more readily put the Qunari to the flames.

Coincidentally, mages appear to be good at making fires.

Welcome to the Tevinter  Empire

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 21 juin 2013 - 04:30 .

[Ieldra]

Morocco Mole wrote...
The Circle isn't slavery.

What do you call it if you are kept in one place by people who have the power of life and death over you. If every moment of your life is watched and controlled, you are forced into celibacy, forced to abandon all contact with your family, only left out to do some service for those people, and hunted down if you try to escape? And I haven't even mentioned Tranquility in this list.

Blood Magic by its very nature is harmful. It summon demons, controls minds, and always ends poorly for everyone.

There are several counterexamples to this assertion in the games.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 juin 2013 - 07:25 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...
The Circle isn't slavery.

What do you call it if you are kept in one place by people who have the power of life and death over you. If every moment of your life is watched and controlled, you are forced into celibacy, forced to abandon all contact with your family, only left out to do some service for those people, and hunted down if you try to escape? And I haven't even mentioned Tranquility in this list.

Quarantene. That's how you call it.

Alos, no one the 3 underlined things.
Mages are NOT forced into celibacy.
They are NOT forbidden from ever seeing their family.
And they DO have some privacy.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Tale of Iloren talks of a former hunter-turned-Keeper -- who admittedly could've been a Mage, but given how Dalish lore talks of all Mages being switched around between clans to study how to be a First/Keeper, it seems unlikely considering hunters use bows and the Arcane Warrior art is lost -- that I proved earlier in this thread to have a solid historical basis in part.

Tell me you are joking.
Tell me you are NOT using a gameplay class restriction (mages can't equip bows) as evidence of anything.

Please tell me you are joking. I wish to still have SOME respect for you, but if that wasn't a joke, then that won't be possible anymore.

[IanPolaris]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Escaping from slavery (the Circles) does not merit it.
Using magic that doesn't harm anyone does not merit it, even if is blood magic.
Seeking personal power by legitimate means does not merit it.
Doing anything with magic what non-mages do without magic without being punished does not merit it, such as defending yourself from being harrassed.

Using magic that doesn't harm anyone does not merit it, even if is blood magic.

The Circle isn't slavery.

This is disputable.  For most mages, yes.  They are inmates in a concentration camp, not slaves.  However, involuntary tranquility does seem an aweful lot like slavery to me......

Using magic that doesn't harm anyone does not merit it, even if is blood magic.

Blood Magic by its very nature is harmful. It summon demons, controls minds, and always ends poorly for everyone.

Citation needed.  Seriously yes it can summon demons (apparently so can normal magic too), and it is the only form of magic that permits mind control, but that doesn't make it harmful.  There is nothing about bloodmagic that makes it evil per se.  Powerful, easily abused, and perhaps even dangerous but none of those make it evil or intrinsically harmful.

Seeking personal power by legitimate means does not merit it.

As long as they don't use blood magic

Blood magic is a tool same as any other.

Doing anything with magic what non-mages do without magic without being
punished does not merit it, such as defending yourself from being
harrassed.

I don't even remember this being a rule. As long as you don't attack templars, innocent villagers, or use blood magic the templars aren't care if you defend yourself from bandit

You use magic to defend yourself from a bandit and the Templars see it,  then congratulations, you are in instant trouble.  If you're lucky they'll call you an apostate and decide to show mercy.  Most of the time the Templar will just kill you, whether or not they decided to call you malificar or not (and whether you are in fact one or not has almost nothing to do with it).

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Tale of Iloren talks of a former hunter-turned-Keeper -- who admittedly could've been a Mage, but given how Dalish lore talks of all Mages being switched around between clans to study how to be a First/Keeper, it seems unlikely considering hunters use bows and the Arcane Warrior art is lost -- that I proved earlier in this thread to have a solid historical basis in part. 

Tell me you are joking.
Tell me you are NOT using a gameplay class restriction (mages can't equip bows) as evidence of anything.

Please tell me you are joking. I wish to still have SOME respect for you, but if that wasn't a joke, then that won't be possible anymore. 

I don't see what's so funny about Ethereal pointing out that a former hunter was Keeper, rather than a mage. Why focus on the bow if you can use long-ranged magic already? Regardless, even Tallis' VA said that non-mages can become Keepers.

[Hazegurl]

Ieldra2 wrote...
What do you call it if you are kept in one place by people who have the power of life and death over you.

My job.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...
The Circle isn't slavery.

What do you call it if you are kept in one place by people who have the power of life and death over you. If every moment of your life is watched and controlled, you are forced into celibacy, forced to abandon all contact with your family, only left out to do some service for those people, and hunted down if you try to escape? And I haven't even mentioned Tranquility in this list.

Quarantene. That's how you call it.

Yeah put the mundanes into quarantine for being weak and useless.

[Asdrubael Vect]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Tale of Iloren talks of a former hunter-turned-Keeper -- who admittedly could've been a Mage, but given how Dalish lore talks of all Mages being switched around between clans to study how to be a First/Keeper, it seems unlikely considering hunters use bows and the Arcane Warrior art is lost -- that I proved earlier in this thread to have a solid historical basis in part. 

Tell me you are joking.
Tell me you are NOT using a gameplay class restriction (mages can't equip bows) as evidence of anything.

Please tell me you are joking. I wish to still have SOME respect for you, but if that wasn't a joke, then that won't be possible anymore. 

I don't see what's so funny about Ethereal pointing out that a former hunter was Keeper, rather than a mage. Why focus on the bow if you can use long-ranged magic already? Regardless, even Tallis' VA said that non-mages can become Keepers.

Tale of Iloren was wrighten about events what was before sacking of Dales and according to what was wrighten he was a mage....being hunter does not mean that he was not be a mage but what dalish have more mages in clan and not all of them become Keepers and First like in modern Dalish culture who specially separated for many smaller clans to protect their mages and knoledges

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 21 juin 2013 - 09:24 .

[Beerfish]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I am pro-Mage all the way.

The templar order should be restricted to hunting mages who have actually done something to merit being hunted.

Escaping from slavery (the Circles) does not merit it.
Using magic that doesn't harm anyone does not merit it, even if is blood magic.
Seeking personal power by legitimate means does not merit it.
Doing anything with magic what non-mages do without magic without being punished does not merit it, such as defending yourself from being harrassed.

Tell this to the hundreds or thousands of innocent people slaughtered by demons who took over well meaning mages.  (Redcliffe, the city in the book asunder)  I'd say those killed or their loved ones would highly approve of templars going after powerful demons only after they have wiped out whole towns.

I try not to look at it as mage or a templar or a chantry loyalist or a Quanri.  I look at it from the point of view of the majority population in the lands.  Merchants, bakers, soldiers, etc.  As one of them I'd feel bad about the plight of the mages but I'd also be very happy they were in the circles and very happy that the templars were there to keep them in check.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Beerfish wrote...
As one of them I'd feel bad about the plight of the mages but I'd also be very happy they were in the circles and very happy that the templars were there to keep them in check.

If you had a brother or sister in the Circle, would you feel differently?  Does the system still work if it impinges on your liberty, or the liberty of a loved one?  It's not just mages who oppose the templars.  Lots of "normal" people in Kirkwall actively resist the templars to smuggle apostates to freedom.  Maybe they knew someone in the Circle, or maybe they've just become aware of the problem.  

I'm not in the "total freedom for mages" camp; untrained mages are a danger to everyone, as are the really sadistic and cruel mages.  There need to be templars to hunt down dangerous mages, and at very least some sort of mandatory training.  But negative attitudes toward magic and mages are practically built into the Circles.  When you treat people like monsters, that's what they become.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 21 juin 2013 - 10:49 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Quarantene. That's how you call it.

Yeah put the mundanes into quarantine for being weak and useless.

Evidently, the principles of the quarantene escapes you.

You put people in there that present a danger (willingly or not) to the populace at large.

[lil yonce]

Keep the Circles for now. Improve them with a Lucrosian leader with an eye towards a stable independence in the future.

[LolaLei]

Dark Korsar wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Whichever side that can more readily put the Qunari to the flames.

Coincidentally, mages appear to be good at making fires.

Welcome to the Tevinter  Empire

Poor things, I'm gonna let them all out!

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Tale of Iloren talks of a former hunter-turned-Keeper -- who admittedly could've been a Mage, but given how Dalish lore talks of all Mages being switched around between clans to study how to be a First/Keeper, it seems unlikely considering hunters use bows and the Arcane Warrior art is lost -- that I proved earlier in this thread to have a solid historical basis in part.

Tell me you are joking.
Tell me you are NOT using a gameplay class restriction (mages can't equip bows) as evidence of anything.

Please tell me you are joking. I wish to still have SOME respect for you, but if that wasn't a joke, then that won't be possible anymore.

Frankly, I don't give a damn if you hold any respect for me or not. The point remains that Arcane Warriors are a specific segment of DA's lore where Mages would use their magic to allow them to wield weapons and that they are a lost art.

All that said, I will admit that the Tale itself upon my recollection says "Iloren and the other hahren called upon the old magic" so yeah, sure, he was a Mage hunter. My bad.

Regardless, Tallis' VA Felicia Day said that non-Mages can become Keepers, and she made it a point during the course of her Redemption writing to work with the Bioware staff to understand the world of Thedas as much as possible.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 juin 2013 - 11:05 .