1799 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Yeah put the mundanes into quarantine for being weak and useless.

Said mundanes managed to keep gods-amongst-men imprisoned and culled for thousands of years. 

Then clearly, mages aren't dangerous enough to warrant imprisonment in the first place.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Under a thousand, actually.

Do you count destroying elves and making them all non-mages and non-immortal* count?


*highly unlikely

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 juin 2013 - 03:42 .

[FaWa]

The fact that this devolved into a conversation about Felicia Day is amazing

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Then clearly, mages aren't dangerous enough to warrant imprisonment in the first place.

"Given the fact that human beings have been capable of mantaining zoos for centuries and have also caused the extinction of highly dangerous species of animals, we can thus conclude that lions are no more dangerous than cats and can thus be used as pets."

Pro-mage logic at its best.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Then clearly, mages aren't dangerous enough to warrant imprisonment in the first place.

"Given the fact that human beings have been capable of mantaining zoos for centuries and have also caused the extinction of highly dangerous species of animals, we can thus conclude that lions are no more dangerous than cats and can thus be used as pets."

Pro-mage logic at its best.

What a stupid metaphor.

Imprisoning a lion for its potential to do harm is exactly as wrong as imprisoning a mage, and that's not even why we keep lions in zoos in the first place.

In fact, the goal of of the zoo is to preserve the lion species and, ultimately, re-introduce them to the wild.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 juin 2013 - 04:52 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Comparing mages to lions only proves my point. Neither one presents a serious threat to humanity at large.

And yet, we don't just let lions roam free in our cities, do we now? Why? Because if we did, people would get eaten.
Likewise, even if we assume mages don't present a serious threat to humanity at large; which is highly debatable; if we were to just let them roam free, bodies would start pilling up.

The point here it's that the containment of a threat doesn't change the fact that it remains a threat. Mages have been contained due to very unique circunstaces that are not replicable were they free such as, for instance, having templars right down the hallway away should someone become an Abomination.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 juin 2013 - 04:52 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
And yet, we don't just let lions roam free in our cities, do we now? Why? Because if we did, people would get eaten.

No, because the lion would likely be killed, and it is an endangered species.

Likewise, even if we assume mages don't present a serious threat to humanity at large; which is highly debatable; if we were to just let them roam free, bodies would start pilling up.

The goal of the zoo is to eventually return its lions to their natural habitat and allow them to roam free.

The point here it's that the containment of a threat doesn't change the fact that it remains a threat.

Lions are not a "threat" and that's not why we contain them.

Mages have been contained due to very unique circunstaces that are not replicable were they free such as, for instance, having templars right down the hallway away should someone become an Abomination.

By that logic, every family should be required to house a fireman, because a fire can start at any time and easily devastate a whole town.

Or maybe everybody should be imprisoned in a tower and guarded by firemen, to prevent them from starting fires.

[IanPolaris]

Not only that but a wild animal can't be expected to know right from wrong, and thus be able to control (and be responsible) for it's own behavior. Human beings including mages can. That makes all the difference.

-Polaris

[Ieldra]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I'm not in the "total freedom for mages" camp; untrained mages are a danger to everyone, as are the really sadistic and cruel mages.  There need to be templars to hunt down dangerous mages, and at very least some sort of mandatory training.

I think almost all mage supporters would be perfectly ok with that. Of course you would want mandatory training. It's not as if any mage *wants* to lose control of their power. And of course those madmen who summon demons to cause havoc, sacfrice lives to power their magic etc. need to be hunted down just like any other criminal. If the circles had been more like boarding schools you are forced to attend for a few years, leaving mages to make their way in the world after they're proven they can handle their powers, there would have been little cause for complaints. I think even a few years of mandatory public service - or the Thedas equivalent - after that to pay for the expenses would be acceptable. The schools, however, would need to be run by mages, and not by people predisposed to revile mages based on their religious ideology.

But negative attitudes toward magic and mages are practically built into the Circles.  When you treat people like monsters, that's what they become.

May I borrow that sentence? I was about to write down the same for an article in a much more complicated way.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 juin 2013 - 06:22 .

[DKJaigen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Yeah put the mundanes into quarantine for being weak and useless.

Said mundanes managed to keep gods-amongst-men imprisoned and culled for thousands of years. 

And now dragons rule the sky and demons rampage across the world and the mundanes are suddenly an endangerd species. Look beyond the templars and mages and you see what kind of card house the templars and chanty have created for themselves. Oh yes safe for a annulments it will work but this system will collapse in face of true opposition from a third party.

If i wanted to conquer thedas the corruption (very easy thx to the templars lyrium addiction) of the templar order would be my priority. The chantry would lose political cloud and can no longer organise exalted marches and the mages would no longer be avaible to defend thedas. In short the templars are a liability for the safety of thedas.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Comparing mages to lions only proves my point. Neither one presents a serious threat to humanity at large.

And yet, we don't just let lions roam free in our cities, do we now? Why? Because if we did, people would get eaten.
Likewise, even if we assume mages don't present a serious threat to humanity at large; which is highly debatable; if we were to just let them roam free, bodies would start pilling up.

Wrong we contain lions because they are an endangerd species and likely will be killed in a city.

[Lotion Soronarr]

You are reading far too much into a simple statement and making assumptions.

Isn't that what 99% of poeple here are doing 99% of the time?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
Then clearly, mages aren't dangerous enough to warrant imprisonment in the first place.

A logicla fallacy.

Clearly, anything that didn't wipe out the whole humantiy isn't a problem or a threat.
Tsunami? Flood? Volcano? MEh. why bother doing anything about it when it can't destroy the whole of humanity.

The plauge or small pox or any other clamity - not one of them destroyed us. Thus they aren't a problem.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Then clearly, mages aren't dangerous enough to warrant imprisonment in the first place.

A logicla fallacy.

Clearly, anything that didn't wipe out the whole humantiy isn't a problem or a threat.
Tsunami? Flood? Volcano? MEh. why bother doing anything about it when it can't destroy the whole of humanity.

The plauge or small pox or any other clamity - not one of them destroyed us. Thus they aren't a problem.

None of those things are as easy to contain and kill as mages.

I have yet to see a mage or any group of mages cause anything like the same level of damage as the things you've just listed.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Then clearly, mages aren't dangerous enough to warrant imprisonment in the first place.

A logicla fallacy.

Clearly, anything that didn't wipe out the whole humantiy isn't a problem or a threat.
Tsunami? Flood? Volcano? MEh. why bother doing anything about it when it can't destroy the whole of humanity.

The plauge or small pox or any other clamity - not one of them destroyed us. Thus they aren't a problem.

None of those things are as easy to contain and kill as mages.

I have yet to see a mage or any group of mages cause anything like the same level of damage as the things you've just listed.

The Baroness and her magic not only destroyed an entire village, it also devastated and entire region of Ferelden, making it uninhabitable for future generations.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 juin 2013 - 12:13 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Plaintiff wrote...
By that logic, every family should be required to house a fireman, because a fire can start at any time and easily devastate a whole town.

Or maybe everybody should be imprisoned in a tower and guarded by firemen, to prevent them from starting fires.

Man that sounds bleak. Can they at least be sexy firemen for sake of aesthetics?

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 22 juin 2013 - 12:49 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
No, because the lion would likely be killed, and it is an endangered species.

Are you going to tell me that if dangerous wild animals were as common as domesticated ones, people should be able to keep them as pets because our society, as a whole, makes us much more powerful than them?
No, because individually, they are still dangerous animals who are likely to eat your face if given a chance.
Likewise, even if mages did not present a threat to mundane society as a whole; and they do; they would still very much present a threat on an individual level which would justify taking actions to protect citizens from them.

Lions are not a "threat" and that's not why we contain them.

I'm guessing that the 700 people attacked by lions each year have a different opinion. According to the wikipedia, lions have been know to just snap people off bustling villages.

Mages are also a threat, that's just a fact.

By that logic, every family should be required to house a fireman, because a fire can start at any time and easily devastate a whole town.

Or maybe everybody should be imprisoned in a tower and guarded by firemen, to prevent them from starting fires.

Thankfully, modern technology has created many gadgets that can be bought by the common man and used to protect himself from a fire.
Anti-mage technology easily affordable by common people doesn't exist in Thedas.

Plus, of course, we protect people the best we can without restraining their ability to conduct their lives. Imprisioning the whole of population because of fires is just not feasible if society is to exist in the first place.

On the other hand, quarantining a subsect of a population due to a dangerous characteristic they possess is entirely feasible and has been done innumerable times in human history.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Right over here.

[Valdrane78]

I stand with the Mages. Oppression is oppression no matter the circumstances. On the other hand, the Chantry is similarly oppressing the Templars. So call me anti-Chantry, pro Mage and neutral Templar.

[Volus Warlord]

FaWa wrote...

The fact that this devolved into a conversation about Felicia Day is amazing

Welcome to the Internet.

[IceHawk-181]

Mages are dangerous; their powers pose a significant potential threat unequaled by any form of conventional force in the entirety of Thedas save the Darkspawn themselves.

However, one must recognize that the zealotry and draconian dictums of Chantry domination and Templar occupation actually contribute to antagonistic relationships that push mages towards rebellion and abomination.

The Chantry and Templars are not qualified to control the Mages.

I would tend to argue that the Mages need to monitor themselves; a Mage Order dominated by Enchanters such as Wynne and Irving that have final say over their members and do not hold the specter of imprisonment, tranquility, and annulment as daily realities could likely foster a more positive environment that would alleviate much of the pressures that create abominations.

Also, the most effectual means of countering an abomination would be Loyal Mages, capable of meeting magic with magic and offering the prospect of defeating the demon within.

Short of immediately forcing all children with magical potential through the Rite of Tranquility before the age of 5, there will be abominations in Thedas. The goal should be to minimize both the frequency and impact of abominations.

The Chantry/Templar approach to the problem is to cage people, place them under constant threat of life and soul, and then act sanctimoniously when said process backfires on them and uses abominations created under said conditions as proof said conditions are necessary...

The Chantry and the Templars are part of the over-arching problem, they need to be removed and replaced with a self-monitoring Mage Council.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Chantry and the Templars are part of the over-arching problem, they need to be removed and replaced with a self-monitoring Mage Council.

It will never work.
Let's stick with realistic solutions.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Chantry and the Templars are part of the over-arching problem, they need to be removed and replaced with a self-monitoring Mage Council.

It will never work.
Let's stick with realistic solutions.

Do you have any ideas that don't have the Chantry and the templars in charge of everything? They've already proven they can't be trusted with the job, they screwed it up BIG TIME.

[IceHawk-181]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Chantry and the Templars are part of the over-arching problem, they need to be removed and replaced with a self-monitoring Mage Council.

It will never work.
Let's stick with realistic solutions.

Astounding feat of argumentation here.
 
A classic parallel example that can be brought up is the Old and New Jedi Orders from Star Wars.
 
Falling to the Dark Side is actually easier than becoming an abomination, all it takes is any mix of strong emotion and a desire to use the Force for a selfish purpose.
 
Yet, the Jedi managed to self-monitor their radicals for 25,000 years with immense success because the Order was able to eschew politics and focus on allowing intelligent Force Sensitives to serve as the guides for younger Force Sensitives.
 
There were always failures and each generation faced its own Dark Side threat, however because the Order was founded by Force Sensitives, ran by Force Sensitives, and offered Knowledge and Understanding in the absence of Fear and Loathing, each threat was dealt with and the Order recovered.
 
A similar solution would be applicable in Thedas.
If one were to organize the Circle of Magi around the concepts of Knowledge and Understanding, create a ruling council of veteran Senior Enchanters such as Irving, Wynne, and even Senior Toren, who instructed Mages through a more personal Master/Apprentice system...
 
 
...and all of this was done without the halls being filled with fully armed Soldiers carrying a holy decree to lob your head off the moment you are suspected of something and a constant religious instruction that holds your kind is responsible for the fall of mankind and The Maker's abandonment of the world, perhaps things would turn out better.
 
But no, let's stick with shoving innocent individuals into gulags in which they are constantly told their Magic is a curse, are faced with the specter of death or worse on a daily basis, are continuously occupied by a horde of religious zealots, and see how things turn out...

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 22 juin 2013 - 02:48 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Chantry and the Templars are part of the over-arching problem, they need to be removed and replaced with a self-monitoring Mage Council.

It will never work.
Let's stick with realistic solutions.

Do you have any ideas that don't have the Chantry and the templars in charge of everything? They've already proven they can't be trusted with the job, they screwed it up BIG TIME.

The system stood for over 900 years. Obviously the system was stable and viable. The Templars weren't the ones screwing up the Circle system. The Divine and the Mages are to be blamed for that, since they actively undermined the Circle system. Surely an argument can be made that the Circle system weren't very moral and so on and so forth, but it was not the Chantry and the Templars who destabilized it.