1799 réponses à ce sujet

[IceHawk-181]

There were 17 Circles massacred under the Rite of Annulment during the period of so-called "stable and viable" Templar oversight before the Fifth Blight.

That is roughly one every 50-years...

In short, Circles are prone to out-breaks of abominations every other generation as a matter of course under Chantry/Templar control.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

There were 17 Circles massacred under the Rite of Annulment during the period of so-called "stable and viable" Templar oversight before the Fifth Blight.

That is roughly one every 50-years...

In short, Circles are prone to out-breaks of abominations every other generation as a matter of course under Chantry/Templar control.

17 in 940 years is a little less than 2 every century. I would not say that the Circles were "prone" to Abomination outbreaks... And As I recall 3 of these 17 were within the last decade of the Circle system, of which 1 of them doesn't even neccesarily happen. So if we remove those 3 from the equation and the last decade of the Circle, it was 1 Annulment every 66 years. That is more than the average lifespan of a peasant. Further proof that the Circle's were not at all prone to Abomination outbreaks.

[MisterJB]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

There were 17 Circles massacred under the Rite of Annulment during the period of so-called "stable and viable" Templar oversight before the Fifth Blight.

That is roughly one every 50-years...

In short, Circles are prone to out-breaks of abominations every other generation as a matter of course under Chantry/Templar control.

In the previous page you admitted that each generation of the Jedi Order faced some sort of Dark Side threat but you excused this because "Order" was brought back and the threat dealt with.
Therefore, if we don't apply double standards, we can say that even if one Circle had to be Annuled per generation, given the fact that this threat was always dealt with and order restored, that's perfectly acceptable. By your own logic.

[IceHawk-181]

False equivalency; in the Star Wars context the Jedi Masters attempt to recover their fallen Apprentices, bring them back from Darkness if possible, and end their lives if not.

The Old Republic did not burn the Jedi Academy from which the Dark Jedi came to the ground for good measure...

The Order approached Fallen Jedi as a failure on their part and dealt with the specific individuals who were involved, almost always offering Redemption first and death as a last resort.

Insofar as the Rite of Annulment; 17 were invoked Before the Fifth Blight and a further three were invoked during/after including the Fereldan Circle of Magi, two of which were fulfilled.

Combined with 19 full-scale Annulments (which would be the equivalent of hundreds of Mages killed in a single action) there are countless Mages forced into Tranquility, Apostates, and heretical Blood Mages that required active Templar excursions throughout history.

The Circles of Magi are a form of control that allows maximal force to be brought to bear against the greatest number of Mages at one time...it does not prevent abominations, it exists to facilitate the massacre of Mages in the case of abominations.

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 22 juin 2013 - 03:28 .

[MisterJB]

Ah, but the ways in which mages and force users are dealt with are irrelevant regarding the ratio of sucess and failures you previously used. If one system can be excused because, despite failing once per generation so long as the threat is dealt with, then so should the other. Otherwise, you're applying double standards because you prefer one over the other.
And, honestly, given the number of Sith Empires this franchise has thrown at us, perhaps the force-blind people of the Star Wars Universe should seriously rethink this whole "Jedi Order" thing.

Also, while the point of the Circle system is to minimize the templar-response time plus diminish the number of potential victims, you can't say it does not also attempt to prevent abominations. It's why mages are taught, it's why mages are made to face demons and it why some mages are made tranquil.

[Nefla]

I stand where I have always stood, in Morthal.

I really couldn't care less about Templars vs mages, DA2 made good and sure of that. Both sides are apparently a mass of murderous, pants-on-head retarded, one dimensional cardboard cutouts. Screw you guys, I'm going to Orzammar!

[IceHawk-181]

Again, false equivalencies and a little goal post shifting.

The Jedi Order maintained 25,000 years of peace and prosperity with perhaps a dozen major Jedi/Sith wars and they managed to deal with said uprisings without massacring every Force Sensitive arbitrarily.

The Chantry managed 940 years of control at the cost of massacring 17 full circles of Magi and killing an untold number of Apostates and rendering countless more Tranquil.

Also, recognize the difference in available freedoms.
The Old Jedi Order retained some strict rules concerning Emotions and Attachment that mirror the isolation Mages face in the Circle; however Jedi are not restricted to the Academy or Temple grounds.

In point of fact they are encouraged to go out into society and use their powers for the betterment of everyone, they are installed as stewards of cities, planets, and entire systems under the oversight of veteran Masters of the Order.

And if Jedi decide to leave the Order they are allowed to; they are not killed for leaving the Order and they are not rendered Force-Blind for the decision.

They are not pursued like mad dogs and forced into a life and death situation in which the only means of survival is a Faustian bargain that will wreck havoc and destruction.

Luke's New Jedi Order even eschewed the old rules of avoiding attachment (the man had a Wife and a Son himself) and managed to avoid major instances of Fallen Jedi because they operated as an open and welcoming institution, headed by intelligent veteran members.

Claiming that similar options are impossible in Thedas just because is not an argument, it is a prejudice.

[Plaintiff]

IceHawk-181 wrote...
The Circles of Magi are a form of control that allows maximal force to be brought to bear against the greatest number of Mages at one time...it does not prevent abominations, it exists to facilitate the massacre of Mages in the case of abominations.

It should be noted that the presence of abominations is not in any way required to justify mage slaughter.

Chantry Law allows for a Grand Cleric to grant the right of annulment if she deems the Circle under her jurisdiction to be "irredeemable".

No context or criteria is given for how "irredeemability" is or should be quantified, so a Grand Cleric can absolutely slaughter an entire Circle of mages on a whim, for no reason at all.

[IceHawk-181]

Kind of a problem when your entire Religion is based on the idea that Mages are the source of the Greatest Sin in history...

[MisterJB]

Yeah, because Grand Clerics are just so stupid they'd destroy natural resources on a whim, for no reason at all.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
Yeah, because Grand Clerics are just so stupid they'd destroy natural resources on a whim, for no reason at all.

Well, they believe that an invisible man in the sky created the world out of nothing, so who knows?

Besides that, the Chantry has a history of allowing grossly unfit people to take or keep high-ranking positions. I wouldn't trust a Grand Cleric to hold my old Pokemon card collection, nevermind the lives of hundreds of men, women and children.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 juin 2013 - 05:05 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Chantry and the Templars are part of the over-arching problem, they need to be removed and replaced with a self-monitoring Mage Council.

It will never work.
Let's stick with realistic solutions.

Do you have any ideas that don't have the Chantry and the templars in charge of everything? They've already proven they can't be trusted with the job, they screwed it up BIG TIME.

The system stood for over 900 years. Obviously the system was stable and viable. The Templars weren't the ones screwing up the Circle system. The Divine and the Mages are to be blamed for that, since they actively undermined the Circle system. Surely an argument can be made that the Circle system weren't very moral and so on and so forth, but it was not the Chantry and the Templars who destabilized it.

True. But if the system works only with the consent of the mages the templars really should be not be antagonising the mages. Regardless the old system will no longer work regardless.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Yeah, because Grand Clerics are just so stupid they'd destroy natural resources on a whim, for no reason at all.

zealotry can cause this stupidity.

[IceHawk-181]

Then again the Chantry is not all bad...it certainly makes sure the Templars always get their Lyrium fix...so long as they are good...

[Plaintiff]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Then again the Chantry is not all bad...it certainly makes sure the Templars always get their Lyrium fix...so long as they are good...

Leashing your employees with an addictive substance is despicable. I'm not about to applaud the Chantry for using the same tactics that human traffickers and unscrupulous pimps use to stop their product from trying to escape.

[Huyna]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Kind of a problem when your entire Religion is based on the idea that Mages are the source of the Greatest Sin in history...

So, existence of Corypheus proves nothing?

[IceHawk-181]

Personally, I have an aversion to holding later generations responsible for the actions of their forbearers. I also have trouble with holding entire peoples responsible for the actions of individuals.

I am funny in that way.

[Huyna]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Personally, I have an aversion to holding later generations responsible for the actions of their forbearers. I also have trouble with holding entire peoples responsible for the actions of individuals.
I am funny in that way.

So, the Sin did happen, right? And  Mages were responislbe? Not some religious zealot, but Free Independent Mages, who unleashed Blight upon the world.
And Chantry fears that it may happen again. What a bunch of backwards savages.

[Plaintiff]

Huyna wrote...
So, existence of Corypheus proves nothing?

Unless the Chantry is keeping Corypheus in their basement, they have proof of nothing.

And the actions of mages in the past are not in any way justification for the treatment of mages in the present.

Our own history is replete with atrocities. By Chantry logic, every German, Italian, British or American-born person livng currently should be kept in jail, because they might emulate the grotesque travesties that were committed by a select few of their distant ancestors.

In fact, Chantry logic is even more ridiculous than that, because the mages living in present-day Thedas have no genetic or cultural connection to Corypheus. Their only similarity lies in a random mutation that they hapen to share.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 juin 2013 - 05:33 .

[IceHawk-181]

Nice over-generalizations here Huyna.

"Mages" were not responsible, a specific group of Tevinter Magisters, a group of individuals were responsible.

This is the equivalent of saying that we need to subjugate all Germans because their ancestors launched the two bloodiest wars in human history and we just cannot deal with the potential that it might happen again.

Seriously, at what point does it become apparent that holding a people responsible for the actions of individuals long dead is one of the most foolish forms of prejudice in existence?

[IanPolaris]

Huyna wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Kind of a problem when your entire Religion is based on the idea that Mages are the source of the Greatest Sin in history...

So, existence of Corypheus proves nothing?

Not really, or at the very least there is a lot less to it than meets the eye.  From what I can tell, the city was already black when Cory arrived there.  It's far more likely that Dumat lied and tricked his own acolytes (for some as yet unknown reason) than the Chantry version is accurate, especially since Dwarven records indicate darkspawn farther back in history than the chantry tales would indicate is possible.

-Polaris

[Plaintiff]

Huyna wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Personally, I have an aversion to holding later generations responsible for the actions of their forbearers. I also have trouble with holding entire peoples responsible for the actions of individuals.
I am funny in that way.

So, the Sin did happen, right? And  Mages were responislbe? Not some religious zealot, but Free Independent Mages, who unleashed Blight upon the world.
And Chantry fears that it may happen again. What a bunch of backwards savages.

America unleashed nuclear weaponry once, and poisoned the very earth for decades.

And they possess the capability to do it again. The possess the capability to do much worse, in fact.

Clearly, the answer is to lock up every American, and form an entire religion based purely around hating America.

[Huyna]

Plaintiff wrote...

Unless the Chantry is keeping Corypheus in their basement, they have proof of nothing.

How so?
Did not he mention Gold City in his speech? Was not he a mage? 

Plaintiff wrote...


And the actions of mages in the past are not in any way justification for the treatment of mages in the present.

It justifies it, if mages of the present can do the same as mages orf the past, if left unguarded. 

Plaintiff wrote...
. By Chantry logic, every German, Italian, British or American-born person livng currently should be kept in jail, because they might emulate the grotesque travesties that were committed by a select few of their distant ancestors.

By Chantry logic, people with certain mental condition should be supervised, if it's know that people with the same mental condtition in the past commited terrible things to other people.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Yeah, because Grand Clerics are just so stupid they'd destroy natural resources on a whim, for no reason at all.

Judging by what I've read of some of the Grand Clerics and Divines?  Yes, they are potentially that stupid (see Ambrosia II for starts).

-Polaris

[Huyna]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Nice over-generalizations here Huyna.

"Mages" were not responsible, a specific group of Tevinter Magisters, a group of individuals were responsible.

These group of individuals  were able to do what the did, because they were mages that were not bound by any rules or control.

IceHawk-181 wrote...
This is the equivalent of saying that we need to subjugate all Germans because their ancestors launched the two bloodiest wars in human history and we just cannot deal with the potential that it might happen again.

No, it's a equivalent of saying, that all present-day members of ****  (auto-corrector cut out "na*i") party everywhere should be kept under close guard, because of what **** did in the past.

Modifié par Huyna, 22 juin 2013 - 05:40 .