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[IceHawk-181]

The Chantry claims mages created the First Blight; this claim is built off of an Oral Tradition handed down over generations and is based in a conception of Original Sin (the creation of The Black City) that to the best of our knowledge is nothing more than religious conviction.

Corypheus, whom the Chantry is ignorant of, conceded that he and his fellow Magisters did indeed enter the City, however it seemingly was already corrupted before they arrived.

True, Corypheus and his Magisters returned to Thedas with the taint, however it is questionable whether or not they caused the taint. It actually seems the "Golden City" of the Chantry mayhap never existed, or was already corrupted before the Magisters arrived. As such, the Dark City corrupted the Magisters not the other way around.

Nonetheless, this entire argument turns on Huyna's willingness to enslave an entire race of individuals because of an irrational fear of what they might become and that fear is one of the most basic forums of racial prejudice, the assumption a certain person must necessarily act in a certain way because they have a particular trait, to the point that attempting to discuss this point with him on a logical level is quite simply impossible.

Huyna already stated he finds it morally acceptable to damn entire successive generations of individuals because a radical minority of individuals nearly a millennia in the past may have caused a major war.

My favorite part was this from Huyna:
"I entrust power to keep me in check to my morale code and the law, that is absolute."

Apparently, he sees individuals as threats that society must necessarily check with the absolute power of law.

That is so incompatible with the concept of a free society that it actually somewhat gives me pause...

[LobselVith8]

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to whom? Corypheus said that he entered the City with his bretheren, but fans have debated what he said in context to this event - some of us have concluded that he stated that the City was already Black, which indicates that the Chantry is wrong. If the Magisters didn't taint the City, and it was already Black to begin with, then it calls into question whether the Magisters were even the first darkspawn to begin with, especially since the first accounts of darkspawn by the dwarves make no reference to any darkspawn like Corypheus.

Once again - i am NOT stating that Chantry version is 100% true.
I am stating that it could be. Now, we have only circumstantial evidence, an words of Corypheus could be interpreted differently. I am saying that Chantry opposition also does not have any evidence regarding origins of Blight.

A fable by an anti-mage religious organization isn't convincing enough for some of us. For some of us who oppose the Chantry controlled Circles, a handful of Magisters doing something terrible doesn't condone oppressing and subjugating an entire race of people simply for being mages. The fact that the Andrastian Chantry gave the templars "dominion over mages by divine right" led us to a continential revolution because the mages chose autonomy over servitude, even though the risk was that the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars would try to kill them all for it (which is the argument Wynne provides in Amaranthine when she explains why she opposed the Circles of Magi breaking free from the Chantry).

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean a handful of specific people, which isn't the same thing as condemning an entire race of people for the actions of a few.

Race of people? Mages are not "special race", it's humans/elf with specific condition.
And they are "condemed" because they are a threat, though it's not their fault.

You should take that up with the mage protagonist from the Circle of Ferelden, Anders, and Bethany, who prefer to the mages as their people. It's even the retort Bethany gives to pro-templar Hawke - as she asks him not to make her chose between her people and her family. It's clearly a view held by some of the people living in Thedas since it has been held by characters across two different games.

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That doesn't condone enslaving mages in the Chantry controlled Circles.

No.
But constant threat of their power and possibility of demoinc possesion do.

Perhaps for you, but not for me.

[Huyna]

Silfren wrote...


And I am convinced that Tevinter has "anti-demon tech," of some kind. 

Than, entire Circle/Templa war can be stopped rather quickly. However, Tevinter, have no interest for peace in lands that are not part of his dominion, so they  won't not help wilingly.

Silfren wrote...

Chantry's practice of disallowing magical research is at best an extremely shortsighted attempt at preventing abuse, and at worst an attempt to prevent anyone from ever discovering that there are other means of controlling magic that don't require the Chantry's heavy-handed monopolistic approach.

The only question than, why did not Tevinter acted sooner, when Circles and Templars did not clash and were at peace?
A subtle hint given to mages that their constant threat of demonic posession can be easily resovled and they can go free, would force Chantry to either accept it (thus, their hold on mages would be broken) or push for ban of such device (to keep power) and that would definatley lead to war. In both cases Tevinter is "on velvet", so to speak.

Modifié par Huyna, 22 juin 2013 - 08:55 .

[jackmeup]

at first I was on the mages side but in DA2 after every mage eventually turned to demons for help and to not to mention Anders blowing up the building to start the revolution I am on the Templars side mages are to dangerous and need to be watched and controlled

[Huyna]

LobselVith8 wrote...


A fable by an anti-mage religious organization isn't convincing enough for some of us. For some of us who oppose the Chantry controlled Circles, a handful of Magisters doing something terrible doesn't condone oppressing and subjugating an entire race of people simply for being mages. 

They are being "oppresed and subjugated" because they are potenital demon meat puppet, with terrible power at their disposal.

LobselVith8 wrote...You should take that up with the mage protagonist from the Circle of Ferelden, Anders, and Bethany, who prefer to the mages as their people. 

They can refer to themselves as they please, why not.

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's even the retort Bethany gives to pro-templar Hawke - as she asks him not to make her chose between her people and her family. It's clearly a view held by some of the people living in Thedas since it has been held by characters across two different games.

And that makes Mages a special Race?
She is a member of a close group, so she is reffering to it as "their people".

LobselVith8 wrote...

Perhaps for you, but not for me.

Obviously.

[Silfren]

Huyna wrote...

Silfren wrote...


And I am convinced that Tevinter has "anti-demon tech," of some kind. 

Than, entire Circle/Templa war can be stopped rather quickly. However, Tevinter, have no interest for peace in lands that are not part of his dominion, so they  won't not help wilingly.

Heh, it's not all on Tevinter, mind you.  The White Chantry also has little interest in working with Tevinter.  Besides that, I wasn't suggesting that Tevinter should be sought out for help, but that the rest of Thedas would be well-served in following its practice of allowing magical research. 

I don't know what magical research would turn up, but I do think that Tevinter's continued existence rather soundly demonstrates that they have something worth learning.

[LobselVith8]

Huyna wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Chantry is obligated to PROVE that mages are responsible for the existence of darkspawn.  They don't get to say "well, prove me wrong!"

My original point, though it maybe due poor english i failed to exress it, was  - Even if entire "How blight came to be" is a lie, and Corypheus words are mere coincidence, mages are still a threat. And they MUST be watched over. In my previous posts i explained why i belive it to be so. Obviously, they are not to blame, but it changes nothing.  At least, untill some kind of anti-demon tech will be developed, than mages can go free.

I doubt that anyone disputes that mages should be properly trained in the use of their abilities. What it comes down to is allowing the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars to have dominion over mages in the name of religion, when we have seen the abuses that can transpire by those who watch over the mages - from rape, torture, illegal tranquility, and murder - to condemning entire populations of people to death for something they didn't do (the Circle of Kirkwall per Meredith's Right of Annulment) or killing them all for having relationships with family outside the Circle (the Circle of Rivain per the World of Thedas).

Huyna wrote...

Silfren wrote...

And as it stands, there is actually evidence that the Chantry's story is at best incomplete, if not outright wrong. 

Flemeth expressed similiar thoughts, if i remember correctly.
And she can be right, why not.

Mages aren't the only ones who have done terrible things - what about all the horrors committed by the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars? The Dalish claim the Chantry invaded their sovereign territory because the elves refused to convert. The Chantry led armies wiped out entire towns because the civilians converted to the Qun. There are abuses that have happened throughout history to the mages living in the Chantry controlled Circles of Magi, as we know from the Circle of Ferelden (which the mage protagonist can condemn as an "oppressive place"). As Anders points out, this toxic enviornment has led to some mages committing suicide simply to escape.

Huyna wrote...

Silfren wrote...

You don't have to actually have conclusive evidence at your disposal to be suspicious of an organization who simply makes a claim without trying to actually prove it.  All it takes is critical thinking and an inclination not to accept a story at face value.

The problem is, that i DO belive that in many ways (no, i am not pro-tranquil-every-mage) Chantry is right regarding mages, EVEN if origins of Blight lies elsewhere. And Chantry's claim - claim that mages bust be watched over - is a right one. At least, untill  100% "demon-repellentt" are devised.

Letting the Andrastian Chantry or the Templar Order watch over the mages is the issue. Some of us think they are horrible, monstrous organizations.

[IceHawk-181]

jackmeup wrote...

at first I was on the mages side but in DA2 after every mage eventually turned to demons for help and to not to mention Anders blowing up the building to start the revolution I am on the Templars side mages are to dangerous and need to be watched and controlled

Even the writers concede they pushed it too far with DA2.
 

[Huyna]

IceHawk-181 wrote...


Nonetheless, this entire argument turns on Huyna's willingness to enslave an entire race of individuals because of an irrational fear

Well, as always, everything is in the eye of the beholder.
For you, my fear is irrational.
For me, a passionate desire not to notice an obvious threat is irrational.
That's the beauty of different perspectives.

IceHawk-181 wrote...
of what they might become and that fear is one of the most basic forums of racial prejudice, the assumption a certain person must necessarily act in a certain way because they have a particular trait, to the point that attempting to discuss this point with him on a logical level is quite simply impossible.

Aw, that's sweet.

IceHawk-181 wrote...
Huyna already stated he finds it morally acceptable to damn entire successive generations of individuals because a radical minority of individuals nearly a millennia in the past may have caused a major war.

Huyna (3rd pesron, that's cool!) already stated, that he finds it moraly acceptable to watch over certain indiviudals, due their terrible destructive power and vulnerability to demonic posessions, as been proven over centuries by countless victims of abominations. 

IceHawk-181 wrote...


My favorite part was this from Huyna:
"I entrust power to keep me in check to my morale code and the law, that is absolute."

Apparently, he sees individuals as threats that society must necessarily check with the absolute power of law.

That is so incompatible with the concept of a free society that it actually somewhat gives me pause...

Apparently, Huyna's english is that poor (alas, it is, though Huyna is trying to improve it), that IceHawk-181  yet again failed to understand what Huyna wrote.
Apparently, part regarding "moral code" skipped IceHawk-181 attention.
Also, IceHawk-181 also missed the part, when Huyna spoke regarding "certain mental condtition" of certain individuals.
And, obviously, Huyna's concept of "free society" is different from IceHawk-181 concept. 

Modifié par Huyna, 22 juin 2013 - 09:14 .

[IceHawk-181]

So Huyna, you are capable of maintaining a Moral Code but Mages are not?

Do you not have the potential for evil? Are you not inherently capable of massacring pedestrians anytime you drive a car because you had a bad day? Are you not inherently capable of raping a slew of women because you feel like doing so?

If potentiality and inherent capability require enslavement, by your argument, the logical realization of that principle results in a police state.

Yes, we do have different definitions of a free society.
My conception is that individual rights should not be violated unless they are provably guilty of a crime.

Your conception claims that rights do not exist unless institutionalized powers say they do.

One is a Free Society, the other is authoritarian despotism.

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 22 juin 2013 - 09:25 .

[IceHawk-181]

Huyna it should tell you something that the POV I am endorsing is basically the fundamental principle of Western Civilization since the Magna Carta and yours is the fundamental rationalization of every despotic regime in history...

[EmperorSahlertz]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Huyna it should tell you something that the POV I am endorsing is basically the fundamental principle of Western Civilization since the Magna Carta and yours is the fundamental rationalization of every despotic regime in history...

Western Civilization have never had to deal with mages and demons...........

[Huyna]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

So Huyna, you are capable of maintaining a Moral Code but Mages are not?

Are you deliberatley missreading my posts? Or do my posts that confusing?

Once again, as i wrote before - mages born that way.
It's not their fault. Mages ARE humans / elves (no, i do not consider them other race of beings).
And of course they can mantain Mora Code... untill demons will come to visit. Or their emotions will get out of control and magic will do the rest.
History of DA knows plenty examples, when innocent mages, even children for Maker's sake (sister of one very unstable knight commander, for example), succumed to demonic possesion and did terrible things. And BECAUSE they are mages, the ammount of damage was tremendous.  It has nothing to with their morale code. There are demons in Fade, demons of higher order, that can full and subdue even most decent and klnd of mages. Pride demons, for example.

IceHawk-181 wrote...
Do you not have the potential for evil? Are you not inherently capable of massacring pedestrians anytime you drive a car because you had a bad day? Are you not inherently capable of raping a slew of women because you feel like doing so?

I am, as any person, have  potential for evil and good. But i do live in a society. I share it with other people. And  i am obliged to obey rules and law. And if i am a danger for those who around me, i MUST be stopped.

IceHawk-181 wrote...
If potentiality and inherent capability require enslavement, by your argument, the logical realization of that principle results in a police state.

And logical realization of your principal will lead to chaos and anarchy.

IceHawk-181 wrote...
My conception is that individual rights should not be violated unless they are provably guilty of a crime.

Your conception claims that rights do not exist unless institutionalized powers say they do.

One is a Free Society, the other is authoritarian despotism.

I can, once again, explain what difference there is between ordinary person and person with terrible powers that can fall victim to possesion of creatrues that hates and despise humans but i won't.
Since i already did previously.

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Huyna it should tell you something
that the POV I am endorsing is basically the fundamental principle of
Western Civilization since the Magna Carta and yours is the fundamental
rationalization of every despotic regime in history...

Since i am not product of Western Civilization and have my own view of Western Civilization's values and fundamental principles, i  will be silent on the matter.  Or it will lead to political discussion, that always, especially, on the internet, will not end in civilised manner.

Modifié par Huyna, 22 juin 2013 - 09:39 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Uhm... No she can't?... The RIght of Annulment, is not an order the
Grand CLeric gives to the Knight-Commander. It is a right she grants
him. So if the Grand Cleric granted a Knight-Commander the RIght of
Annulment, then the Knight-Commander would still have to be willing to
carry out the Annulment. In this way, just becasue some old bat of a
Grand Cleric goes nuts, then the Circle won't be annuled, because the
Kngiht-Commander won't carry out the order.

Except morality of the Templars is considered a secondary requirement and Templars are recruited for their zeal, their devotion to carrying out duties even if they're not pleasant.

Unless that Knight-Commander is not only a moral person but has the backing of all of his Templars not just from a leadership point but from a brotherly standpoint such that they wouldn't do their jobs if he went out of the picture, then the potential for abuse is still there and still fairly large.

If the KC refused, the GC could just ship him off to Val Royeaux or some other duty and appoint someone else to the role that was more amenable.

There is nothing to refuse.

It's NOT an order. It's a method. Just because a police officer is authorized to use deadly force, doesn't mean he will be fired if he doesn't use it but still completes his task.

[IceHawk-181]

So apparently, because Mages might be possessed and they might become abominations, and despite the canonical reality that these are mostly rare cases, all Mages everywhere must be treated as a threat and reduced to less than human.

Yeah, I am happy to hear that yours is a non-western tradition.

[LobselVith8]

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A fable by an anti-mage religious organization isn't convincing enough for some of us. For some of us who oppose the Chantry controlled Circles, a handful of Magisters doing something terrible doesn't condone oppressing and subjugating an entire race of people simply for being mages. 

They are being "oppresed and subjugated" because they are potenital demon meat puppet, with terrible power at their disposal.

That's where you and I differ on our view of the matter. The Chantry controlled Circles place mages under the direct authority of the templars, who were the military arm of the Chantry of Andraste until the schism that lead to the Circles of Magi emancipating themselves from their authority. It seems to be to their advantage to have the mages as their disposal - as it was when the Chantry attacked the Dales and went to war with the Qunari. I don't see the organization in the altruistic light that you seem to.

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You should take that up with the mage protagonist from the Circle of Ferelden, Anders, and Bethany, who prefer to the mages as their people. 

They can refer to themselves as they please, why not.

The point is you seem to be contesting the viewpoint that the mages are a group of people, which is addressed as a point of view held by mage characters in the storyline across two entirely different games.

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's even the retort Bethany gives to pro-templar Hawke - as she asks him not to make her chose between her people and her family. It's clearly a view held by some of the people living in Thedas since it has been held by characters across two different games.

And that makes Mages a special Race?
She is a member of a close group, so she is reffering to it as "their people".

Bethany is a mage, so she refers to the mages as her people - that's the point.

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Perhaps for you, but not for me.

Obviously.

And not for other societies where mages aren't controlled by templars, either.

[Huyna]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

So apparently, because Mages might be possessed and they might become abominations, and despite the canonical reality that these are mostly rare cases, all Mages everywhere must be treated as a threat and reduced to less than human.

Cannonical reality is simple - demon ALWAYS  attempts to posses a mage, when it encounters one in Fade.
And the stronger demon is, the harder for mage to stand against him (demon may try to trick the mage - or simply overpower him). Yes, abominations are rare, but each time such "birth" ended in catatrophy.
Should trully powerfull mage fall victim to trully powerfull demon the scale of such catasrophy muliplies exponentially.
But who cares if few thousands peasant will die.

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Yeah, I am happy to hear that yours is a non-western tradition.

I am happy as well.

[Huyna]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's where you and I differ on our view of the matter. The Chantry controlled Circles place mages under the direct authority of the templars, who were the military arm of the Chantry of Andraste until the schism that lead to the Circles of Magi emancipating themselves from their authority. It seems to be to their advantage to have the mages as their disposal - as it was when the Chantry attacked the Dales and went to war with the Qunari. I don't see the organization in the altruistic light that you seem to.

Not an altruistic, obviously. Chantry, as any major  religion, is about power and influence.
However, do see Chantry's approach as middle-ground between Qunari and Tevinter ways.

LobselVith8 wrote...The point is you seem to be contesting the viewpoint that the mages are a group of people, which is addressed as a point of view held by mage characters in the storyline across two entirely different games.She is a member of a close group, so she is reffering to it as "their people".

Since Circle is a family-like social group for many mages - most of them are becoming Circle members during childhood - it's no suprise for them to refer to their group as "my people".  Bethany. if i remember correctly, was more or less happy in a Circle (well, happier than she were as Grey Warden anyway), though she became a member when she was adult. I never got the impression that mages see themselves as different race/species. Well, maybe Uldred did, but he was... ahem, very "special".

LobselVith8 wrote...

And not for other societies where mages aren't controlled by templars, either.

And i would like to see more of how internal mechanics such societis work in DA:I.
Dalish, Tevinter, e.t.c.

Modifié par Huyna, 22 juin 2013 - 10:49 .

[DKJaigen]

Huyna wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Personally, I have an aversion to holding later generations responsible for the actions of their forbearers. I also have trouble with holding entire peoples responsible for the actions of individuals.
I am funny in that way.

So, the Sin did happen, right? And  Mages were responislbe? Not some religious zealot, but Free Independent Mages, who unleashed Blight upon the world.
And Chantry fears that it may happen again. What a bunch of backwards savages.

No the black city is reponsible. what is the black city? i dont know for all we know some guy their unleashed the blight for the lulz.

[Huyna]

DKJaigen wrote...

No the black city is reponsible. what is the black city? i dont know for all we know some guy their unleashed the blight for the lulz.

And in the end of DA:I it will be revealed that Maker unleashed the Blight as an ultimate  test.
Oh, maybe, he is just insane.
Or for lulz, true.

[LobselVith8]

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's where you and I differ on our view of the matter. The Chantry controlled Circles place mages under the direct authority of the templars, who were the military arm of the Chantry of Andraste until the schism that lead to the Circles of Magi emancipating themselves from their authority. It seems to be to their advantage to have the mages as their disposal - as it was when the Chantry attacked the Dales and went to war with the Qunari. I don't see the organization in the altruistic light that you seem to.

Not an altruistic, obviously. Chantry, as any major  religion, is about power and influence.
However, do see Chantry's approach as middle-ground between Qunari and Tevinter ways.

It's not a middle ground to leave the mages relatively powerless to the Templar Order and the Andrastian Chantry.

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The point is you seem to be contesting the viewpoint that the mages are a group of people, which is addressed as a point of view held by mage characters in the storyline across two entirely different games.She is a member of a close group, so she is reffering to it as "their people".

Since Circle is a family-like social group for many mages - most of them are becoming Circle members during childhood - it's no suprise for them to refer to their group as "my people".  Bethany. if i remember correctly, was more or less happy in a Circle (well, happier than she were as Grey Warden anyway), though she became a member when she was adult. I never got the impression that mages see themselves as different race/species. Well, maybe Uldred did, but he was... ahem, very "special".

Your retort makes absolutely no sense. If a mage sees the mages as "their people", that doesn't mean that they see themselves as a different species - it means they see mages as their people. That's it. And there's a stark difference between family and people.

Also, you seem to be confusing Uldred with the abomination he later became because he summoned more demons than he could possibly control - we know very little about the real Uldred.

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And not for other societies where mages aren't controlled by templars, either.

And i would like to see more of how internal mechanics such societis work in DA:I.
Dalish, Tevinter, e.t.c.

Well, the Dalish had their own kingdom, so I think there's a counterpoint to the templar ideal of having mages under templar domination.

[Huyna]

LobselVith8 wrote...


It's not a middle ground to leave the mages relatively powerless to the Templar Order and the Andrastian Chantry.

In comparisson to Qunari ways - it is a middle ground.

LobselVith8 wrote...


Your retort makes absolutely no sense. If a mage sees the mages as "their people", that doesn't mean that they see themselves as a different species - it means they see mages as their people. That's it. And there's a stark difference between family and people.

Let me clarify, once again, in case i expressed myslef in confusing way.

I do not see mages as a special race of people. I see them as humans/elves with special abilities.
I never stated (at least, that was not my intention) that mages consider themselves to be some sort of different species.
On the contrary.  And i did mention Uldred as an expetion, exactly because he was under control of one of the most powerfull demon on Fade.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Well, the Dalish had their own kingdom, so I think there's a counterpoint to the templar ideal of having mages under templar domination.

Hopefully, we will have a chance to personally see, how sucesfull they are.

Modifié par Huyna, 22 juin 2013 - 11:10 .

[LobselVith8]

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not a middle ground to leave the mages relatively powerless to the Templar Order and the Andrastian Chantry.

In comparisson to Qunari ways - it is a middle ground.

The Rite of Tranquility and the Right of Annulment lead me to disagree, respectfully.

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your retort makes absolutely no sense. If a mage sees the mages as "their people", that doesn't mean that they see themselves as a different species - it means they see mages as their people. That's it. And there's a stark difference between family and people.

Let me clarify, once again, in case i expressed myslef in confusing way.

I do not see mages as a special race of people. I see them as humans/elves with special abilities.
I never stated (at least, that was not my intention) that mages consider themselves to be some sort of different species.

However, some mages have explicitly addressed that they see mages in general as their 'people', which is the point.

Huyna wrote...

On the contrary.  And i did mention Uldred as an expetion, exactly because he was under control of one of the most powerfull demon on Fade.

The abomination Uldred was trying to create an army of abominations - we never really get into the mind of the human or perspective Uldred.

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Well, the Dalish had their own kingdom, so I think there's a counterpoint to the templar ideal of having mages under templar domination.

Hopefully, we will have a chance to personally see, how sucesfull they are.

If the elves can reclaim their kingdom from the Orlesian Empire, we just might get a glimpse into a new elven society.

[Silfren]

Huyna wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not a middle ground to leave the mages relatively powerless to the Templar Order and the Andrastian Chantry.

In comparisson to Qunari ways - it is a middle ground.

Eh.  I'd argue that having the legal right to remove young children from their families and imprison them for the rest of their lives, without any contact with the outside world ever granted except at the whim of the Knight Commander, accompanied by the ever-present threat of Tranquility or Annulment, and constantly having the dominant religion of the area preach that you were born cursed...all these things add up to the present Circle system as being only a less extreme version of the Qunari method, NOT an acceptable middle ground.

It's long past time for the Chantry to at least make an attempt at a better method.  Their failure to even consider it is the very reason why mages have now rebelled at put the Chantry itself on the brink of collapse.

[In Exile]

IceHawk-181 wrote...
True, Corypheus and his Magisters returned to Thedas with the taint, however it is questionable whether or not they caused the taint. It actually seems the "Golden City" of the Chantry mayhap never existed, or was already corrupted before the Magisters arrived. As such, the Dark City corrupted the Magisters not the other way around.

Does this really change the pro-templar argument, though? If the "golden city" was always a trap, it's still the fact that absent the kind of magical ceremony the Tevinters engaged in, no one seems to have been able to reach it to "free" the taint. Presuming we go via the atheist route, and call BS on any sort of gods (old, maker, creator, whatever), then for all we know the "old gods" are just really powerful demons/spirits/whatever-kind-of-fade-entity inside of dragons. 

In that case, a pro-templar could still argue that the blight is an example of why their oppressive worldview is justified, because had the mages been locked up, the taint would not have escaped. 

If it isn't clear already, this isn't my view. But I don't see why Corypheus, other than saying that the Chantry narrative is BS, necessarily undercuts the templar argument.