1799 réponses à ce sujet

[ladyiolanthe]

I support more freedom for mages, but I think the Templars have a place, too. Not as prison wardens for the mages, which is what they basically are in DAO and DAII, but as the elite force tasked with hunting down the mages that do turn evil.

The Circle system doesn't seem very fair to me, because not all mages do make bargains with demons. They really get treated rather inhumanely once their magical talents manifest. Young children are taken away from their parents, and lose out on the care and nurturing children need to develop into healthy adults. Mages aren't allowed to build long-term relationships or families once in the Circle. Wynne describes how a lot of pregnant mages don't get to keep their babies to term, which would be fine if they don't actually want to have children or raise them, but is pretty awful if they do. The Circles really seem like hotbeds for mental illness, which could explain why a seemingly high proportion of mages do turn to blood magic.

Modifié par ladyiolanthe, 23 juin 2013 - 01:55 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And recent events have shown that the Templars are not fanatically loyal to the Chantry, but are far more loyal to their brother Templars.

Actually, that's not entirely true. Fifteen Knight-Commanders were called to fight against the Mages, yes, but if we take the fact that Ferelden had three Knight-Commanders during the Blight as being indicative that there can be multiple Knight-Commanders in any given nation then we cannot say the Templars are, predominantly, much of anything. We have no numbers to really say the Templars are more loyal to Organization X or Organization Y at this point in time.

Redcliffe had a Knight-Commander, Denerim had one, and the Tower itself had one. It's likely that every major settlement has a Knight-Commander, which could account for there being dozens of Knight-Commanders.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 juin 2013 - 03:51 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

So apparently, because Mages might be possessed and they might become abominations, and despite the canonical reality that these are mostly rare cases, all Mages everywhere must be treated as a threat and reduced to less than human.

Yeah, I am happy to hear that yours is a non-western tradition.

They aren't reducede to less than human. But to you, any restriction placed on them is punihsment and strippiung them of humanity.

Also, because mages are mages and have highly abusable powers IS ADDITION to becoming possesed and frakking up everything.
People keep underestimating abominations because of the game.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

So apparently, because Mages might be possessed and they might become abominations, and despite the canonical reality that these are mostly rare cases, all Mages everywhere must be treated as a threat and reduced to less than human.

Yeah, I am happy to hear that yours is a non-western tradition.

They aren't reducede to less than human. But to you, any restriction placed on them is punihsment and strippiung them of humanity.

Also, because mages are mages and have highly abusable powers IS ADDITION to becoming possesed and frakking up everything.
People keep underestimating abominations because of the game.

Perhaps. But even if the mages need a police force(its not yet proven as you claim) should it be the templars? the answer is no! The templars are an liability for the safety of thedas we already seen how easily manipulated , corrupt and weak the templar order is. Killing the templar order is simply good business. if the mages need to be killed remains to be seen.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And recent events have shown that the Templars are not fanatically loyal to the Chantry, but are far more loyal to their brother Templars.

Actually, that's not entirely true. Fifteen Knight-Commanders were called to fight against the Mages, yes, but if we take the fact that Ferelden had three Knight-Commanders during the Blight as being indicative that there can be multiple Knight-Commanders in any given nation then we cannot say the Templars are, predominantly, much of anything. We have no numbers to really say the Templars are more loyal to Organization X or Organization Y at this point in time.

Redcliffe had a Knight-Commander, Denerim had one, and the Tower itself had one. It's likely that every major settlement has a Knight-Commander, which could account for there being dozens of Knight-Commanders.

Those fifteen were all who were present at the conclave. But they all agreed with Lambert. For all we know, these fifteen were all representatives of the Circles in Thedas, and would each pass the message on to the rest of the Templars.
Or, the two additional "Knight-Commanders" in Ferelden, were really just Knight-Captains, the writers had just not yet concieved of the rank.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
Perhaps. But even if the mages need a police force(its not yet proven as you claim) should it be the templars? the answer is no! The templars are an liability for the safety of thedas we already seen how easily manipulated , corrupt and weak the templar order is. Killing the templar order is simply good business. if the mages need to be killed remains to be seen.

Templars are AOK.

Purge the mages.

[DPSSOC]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

So apparently, because Mages might be possessed and they might become abominations, and despite the canonical reality that these are mostly rare cases, all Mages everywhere must be treated as a threat and reduced to less than human.

Yeah, I am happy to hear that yours is a non-western tradition.

They aren't reducede to less than human. But to you, any restriction placed on them is punihsment and strippiung them of humanity.

Also, because mages are mages and have highly abusable powers IS ADDITION to becoming possesed and frakking up everything.
People keep underestimating abominations because of the game.

Perhaps. But even if the mages need a police force(its not yet proven as you claim) should it be the templars? the answer is no! The templars are an liability for the safety of thedas we already seen how easily manipulated , corrupt and weak the templar order is. Killing the templar order is simply good business. if the mages need to be killed remains to be seen.

Wynne inadvertently set a boy on fire, because he made her angry.  An apprentice in the tower, clearly an adult, engulfed himself in flames because he was nervous.  Avernus ripped open the Veil and unleashed a horde of demons because he was arrogant.  Connor made a deal with a demon because he loved his father.  Mages don't need a police force they need a quarantine until they can demonstrate they have it in them to be more than human.  As bad as a mage can be when he puts his mind to doing harm he's far worse by accident because at that point he's lost control.

[Ziggeh]

I'm slightly amazed by the amount of people who see an imperfect system and decide there should be no system at all. As if that would work out swimmingly.

[LobselVith8]

Ziggeh wrote...

I'm slightly amazed by the amount of people who see an imperfect system and decide there should be no system at all. As if that would work out swimmingly.

That's because you didn't bother to read the posts by the pro-mage argument. Alternative systems were proposed; we simply argue against the monstrous one that never should have been instituted in the first place.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

I'm slightly amazed by the amount of people who see an imperfect system and decide there should be no system at all. As if that would work out swimmingly.

That's because you didn't bother to read the posts by the pro-mage argument. Alternative systems were proposed; we simply argue against the monstrous one that never should have been instituted in the first place.

SO far, what most of you have proposed is:
1: Disband the Templars
2:
3: Happiness!

As you can see, there are some crucial planning errors in there.

[Ziggeh]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's because you didn't bother to read the posts by the pro-mage argument. Alternative systems were proposed; we simply argue against the monstrous one that never should have been instituted in the first place.

If you're proposing an alternate system then you aren't saying there should be no system at all. Right? Or are you saying those proposing them are speaking for and representing those who aren't?

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
That's because you didn't bother to read the posts by the pro-mage argument. Alternative systems were proposed; we simply argue against the monstrous one that never should have been instituted in the first place.

There's no "pro-mage" movement. You can't paid us with the same brush. I'm far more likely than Xil or Ian to actually condemn what mages do and argue that there's an inherent danger to magic, but my "solution" is probably more radical than everyone save yours. 

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

I'm slightly amazed by the amount of people who see an imperfect system and decide there should be no system at all. As if that would work out swimmingly.

That's because you didn't bother to read the posts by the pro-mage argument. Alternative systems were proposed; we simply argue against the monstrous one that never should have been instituted in the first place.

SO far, what most of you have proposed is:
1: Disband the Templars
2:
3: Happiness!

As you can see, there are some crucial planning errors in there.

From a security point of view its not sensible to side with the templars. And they need a major overhaul was evident at the fereldan circle where the templars got their asses kicked, Everytime the templars encounter something thats not circle related they get asses handed to them, Now you got a demonic horde and their will be no doubt the templars will be slaughterd . **** it when the circle of mages said : enough with your templars nonsense they failed again because they where not able to stop the mages.

In short you have to convince me why the templars should not be alterd because they pretty much a large mess of epic fail and supporting them is epic fail.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 23 juin 2013 - 03:06 .

[LobselVith8]

Ziggeh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's because you didn't bother to read the posts by the pro-mage argument. Alternative systems were proposed; we simply argue against the monstrous one that never should have been instituted in the first place.

If you're proposing an alternate system then you aren't saying there should be no system at all. Right? Or are you saying those proposing them are speaking for and representing those who aren't? 

How many people have proposed no system at all? Condemning the Chantry controlled Circles doesn't mean we think mages should be lawless. A myriad of people have given different views and proposals, but for many of us, it comes down to not having the Chantry or their fanatical soldiers in a position of authority over mages.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And recent events have shown that the Templars are not fanatically loyal to the Chantry, but are far more loyal to their brother Templars.

Actually, that's not entirely true. Fifteen Knight-Commanders were called to fight against the Mages, yes, but if we take the fact that Ferelden had three Knight-Commanders during the Blight as being indicative that there can be multiple Knight-Commanders in any given nation then we cannot say the Templars are, predominantly, much of anything. We have no numbers to really say the Templars are more loyal to Organization X or Organization Y at this point in time.

Redcliffe had a Knight-Commander, Denerim had one, and the Tower itself had one. It's likely that every major settlement has a Knight-Commander, which could account for there being dozens of Knight-Commanders.

Those fifteen were all who were present at the conclave. But they all agreed with Lambert. For all we know, these fifteen were all representatives of the Circles in Thedas, and would each pass the message on to the rest of the Templars.
Or, the two additional "Knight-Commanders" in Ferelden, were really just Knight-Captains, the writers had just not yet concieved of the rank.

But we DON'T know and that is the point.  I think we are meant to be drawn into the conclusion that you clearly were, but there is nothing in the lore or scene that even suggests that the 15 Knight Commanders are in fact the Knight Commanders of the circles or even the only knight commanders.

In fact I am sure it's not.  I don't see Gregoire going along with Lambert at all on this for starts.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
From a security point of view its not sensible to side with the templars. And they need a major overhaul was evident at the fereldan circle where the templars got their asses kicked, Everytime the templars encounter something thats not circle related they get asses handed to them, Now you got a demonic horde and their will be no doubt the templars will be slaughterd . **** it when the circle of mages said : enough with your templars nonsense they failed again because they where not able to stop the mages.

In short you have to convince me why the templars should not be alterd because they pretty much a large mess of epic fail and supporting them is epic fail.

Your definition of fail is amusing.
The Templars in Ferelden did good given the circumstances.
You insistance that it proves their incompetence is illogical.

[Ziggeh]

LobselVith8 wrote...

How many people have proposed no system at all?

An amount by which I am slighty amazed. I thought I'd made that clear, by using those words.

[LobselVith8]

Ziggeh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

How many people have proposed no system at all?

An amount by which I am slighty amazed. I thought I'd made that clear, by using those words. 

Yet what I read was some people refusing to condone the Andrastian Chantry or the Templar Order for imposing themselves over the mages in Circles where they have religious and legal authority over mages; that isn't the same as supporting the concept of mages being above the law. Opposing the tyranny of the Chantry and the templars means precisely that - it doesn't mean supporting mages engaging in criminal behavior against civilians.

[Teddie Sage]

Always sided with the mages since the first game and it's not about to change. I never liked the templars and most Chantry zealots, even though most of my characters were always polite with them. I think my main Hawke was the only one who defied templars openly as a rogue who romanced Anders and allowed him to live be cause he completely understood his actions and supported change in the world.

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 23 juin 2013 - 04:10 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet what I read was some people refusing to condone the Andrastian Chantry or the Templar Order for imposing themselves over the mages in Circles where they have religious and legal authority over mages; that isn't the same as supporting the concept of mages being above the law. Opposing the tyranny of the Chantry and the templars means precisely that - it doesn't mean supporting mages engaging in criminal behavior against civilians.

Wihout having a functional, workable system in place to replace the Chatnry and Templars, how will you stop such criminal behavior?

[Zombie_Alexis]

I can see both sides to this conflict, but in DA2, we never got a "middle ground" solution. (Mostly because certain events had to happen...) But I think that the Dalish have it about right. Mages need to be integrated into society in some way so that they don't end up thinking they are better than the rest (hello, Uldred) and non-mages need to stop fearing them. I think if they had the Circle set up as a sort of training academy and the mages allowed to stay with their families in the evenings, that would be ideal. Then mages could be assigned to different communities as supporters and defenders. Templars would still be needed to protect people from those few mages who do become corrupt.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
From a security point of view its not sensible to side with the templars. And they need a major overhaul was evident at the fereldan circle where the templars got their asses kicked, Everytime the templars encounter something thats not circle related they get asses handed to them, Now you got a demonic horde and their will be no doubt the templars will be slaughterd . **** it when the circle of mages said : enough with your templars nonsense they failed again because they where not able to stop the mages.

In short you have to convince me why the templars should not be alterd because they pretty much a large mess of epic fail and supporting them is epic fail.

Your definition of fail is amusing.
The Templars in Ferelden did good given the circumstances.
You insistance that it proves their incompetence is illogical.

Yes they hide behind a door while left the mages they are sworn to protect to die while those mages made sure the demons where containted the templars did very well indeed for beings with such low competence. Buts its not only the fereldan circle. So far we have not seen a single templar hodl their own against demons or anything beyond the the confines of the circle. Cole for example killed many templars who where not able to resist him and even lambert got killed in the end.

[Dave of Canada]

I'm far more surprised that so few Templar managed to hold the door against a tower filled with demons , abominations and risen dead.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'm far more surprised that so few Templar managed to hold the door against a tower filled with demons , abominations and risen dead.

Wynne's barrier sealed them off.  That may have made a slight difference.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet what I read was some people refusing to condone the Andrastian Chantry or the Templar Order for imposing themselves over the mages in Circles where they have religious and legal authority over mages; that isn't the same as supporting the concept of mages being above the law. Opposing the tyranny of the Chantry and the templars means precisely that - it doesn't mean supporting mages engaging in criminal behavior against civilians.

Wihout having a functional, workable system in place to replace the Chatnry and Templars, how will you stop such criminal behavior?

You start by putting such a system in place with the consent of all parties.  You start by actually trying to solve the problem by treating all parties like human beings rather than monsters to be feared.

-Polaris