1799 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

They may train all the templars they like for national defense, they just won't be able to imprison mages who haven't committed crimes against their citizenry.

And against Dreamers/Blood Magic, what goes on there?

Is the Circle allowed to conduct whatever experiment it wants in its Tower?  What happens if one of them break the Veil again?  Who is going to clean up the mage's mess again?

[In Exile]

Ziggeh wrote...
But you can't put people who might be compromised in charge of managing who might be compromised. By definition you need a seperate body to fulfill the role, which immediately sets up opposite (because people are people) and you're back where you started.

You can't regulate people without oppression, yes. But in this case I think conflict is inevitable. I think having independent circles as essentially autonomous self-governing institutions (which would be powerful, because of magic, but weak, because of their small numbers and tiny geographic pull) focuses the conflict in the right direction.

Mages wouldn't be restricted to Towers, but they couldn't travel without negotiating treaties with whatever sovereign nation they find themselves in. Which might mean accept an armed escort of 40 templar equivalents whenever they go outside of (some defined area of autonomous governance). 

If the conflict is inevitable, then you want to create it at the institutional level. 

Xilizhra wrote...
The idea is that I have sentinels who can handle that kind of thing, but they only go into action if someone truly is compromised, and don't have managerial power.

And why would the obedient mundanes do this? Why would they want to, essentially, be second class police people? This is where all of the problems arise with an independent Circle - to be independent and not just switch the exploitation around, it has to be mage-only. 

And at that point, you're going to get all sorts of problems if you essentially remove all meaningful political power from your police force. 

[Xilizhra]

And why would the obedient mundanes do this? Why would they want to, essentially, be second class police people? This is where all of the problems arise with an independent Circle - to be independent and not just switch the exploitation around, it has to be mage-only.

We don't want the military to have direct political power, do we? I'd rather not have these people have it either, and it's not like the templars being in charge made for particularly non-corrupt leaders. And the mundanes might lash out, but crimes against mages are under Circle jurisdiction, so they'd be ill-advised to do so.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
We don't want the military to have direct political power, do we?

They do. In fact, they have quite a tremendous amount of political and economic power. We have an incredibly complicated bureaucratic system, and it varies by the nation, but even if you take the West, the top officials in defence are both civilian and military. 

Management isn't political power, though. Generals are still military, not civilian. 

I'd rather not have these people have it either, and it's not like the templars being in charge made for particularly non-corrupt leaders.  

My point was just that you can't create a system that's less prone to abuse if you isolate your police force from management. Because to me that sounds like the peopel command the troops are outside the organization and its aims. 

And the mundanes might lash out, but crimes against mages are under Circle jurisdiction, so they'd be ill-advised to do so.

Well, no. Mundanes would have to agree to that, and this is exactly the kind of thing a war starts over. 

Modifié par In Exile, 23 juin 2013 - 10:12 .

[Xilizhra]

My point was just that you can't create a system that's less prone to abuse if you isolate your police force from management. Because to me that sounds like the peopel command the troops are outside the organization and its aims.

I'm open to revision, but the aims of this group are to protect mages from demons as their primary purpose. Perhaps I could give them more power for that.

Well, no. Mundanes would have to agree to that, and this is exactly the kind of thing a war starts over.

This is my plan. Implementing it will depend on reality.

[PinkysPain]

I stand at the precipice of not giving a **** any more ... it better go way way into the background early in the game or I might not buy it at all.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You start by putting such a system in place with the consent of all parties.  You start by actually trying to solve the problem by treating all parties like human beings rather than monsters to be feared.

-Polaris

Well, the last time the Divine allowed the First Enchanters to gather to discuss what was to be done regarding the Rite of Tranquility; which is something some mages fiercely oppose; the Grand Enchanter imediatelly attempted to hijack the meeting on grounds that anyone affiliated with the Chantry are monsters to be feared and another mage deliberatelly sabotaged the whole thing by commiting murder and framing someone else for it.

But I guess that's excusable because they are mages.

That's Divine Justina's fault.  You don't call such a meeting unless you KNOW how the vote is going to go.  Fiona made it very clear that her attitude towards the Chantry and Justina was "too little/too damn late" and it was a legal vote and a vote that the circles were legally allowed to make.

-POlaris

[Bleachrude]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

They may train all the templars they like for national defense, they just won't be able to imprison mages who haven't committed crimes against their citizenry.

And against Dreamers/Blood Magic, what goes on there?

Is the Circle allowed to conduct whatever experiment it wants in its Tower?  What happens if one of them break the Veil again?  Who is going to clean up the mage's mess again?

Wilhelm is a good example.

Wilhelm was outside of the circle and was doing his own experimentation so you can't argue that it was the Chantry forcing him down certain paths.

Yet what happened? Golem kills him and only by luck does his grand-daughter not get killed.

What if this had been a pride demon instead of Desire/Lust and it wiped out the village. What exactly would be the punishment that the circle would face from the crown for the loss of a village?

[BlueMagitek]

Fiona could have done something about it, but Maric's lure was too strong.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You start by putting such a system in place with the consent of all parties.  You start by actually trying to solve the problem by treating all parties like human beings rather than monsters to be feared.

-Polaris

Well, the last time the Divine allowed the First Enchanters to gather to discuss what was to be done regarding the Rite of Tranquility; which is something some mages fiercely oppose; the Grand Enchanter imediatelly attempted to hijack the meeting on grounds that anyone affiliated with the Chantry are monsters to be feared and another mage deliberatelly sabotaged the whole thing by commiting murder and framing someone else for it.

But I guess that's excusable because they are mages.

That's Divine Justina's fault.  You don't call such a meeting unless you KNOW how the vote is going to go.  Fiona made it very clear that her attitude towards the Chantry and Justina was "too little/too damn late" and it was a legal vote and a vote that the circles were legally allowed to make.

-POlaris

The point is not whether or not they were legally allowed. The point is that we have an example of a situation where the Chantry sat down to discuss options and treated the other party as human beings and it was the mages who deliberately sabotaged everything because they saw the other party as monsters.
If Fiona and Adrian are excused because the past 900 years lead to a strained relation; then so were the ancient non-mages after a thousand years of magical tyranny.

[Xilizhra]

The point is not whether or not they were legally allowed. The point is that we have an example of a situation where the Chantry sat down to discuss options and treated the other party as human beings and it was the mages who deliberately sabotaged everything because they saw the other party as monsters.

No, it wasn't. They were lesser, imprisoned beings still; that was the point. There was never even a pretense of treating mages as if they were equally human.

[IanPolaris]

Bleachrude wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

They may train all the templars they like for national defense, they just won't be able to imprison mages who haven't committed crimes against their citizenry.

And against Dreamers/Blood Magic, what goes on there?

Is the Circle allowed to conduct whatever experiment it wants in its Tower?  What happens if one of them break the Veil again?  Who is going to clean up the mage's mess again?

Wilhelm is a good example.

Wilhelm was outside of the circle and was doing his own experimentation so you can't argue that it was the Chantry forcing him down certain paths.

Yet what happened? Golem kills him and only by luck does his grand-daughter not get killed.

What if this had been a pride demon instead of Desire/Lust and it wiped out the village. What exactly would be the punishment that the circle would face from the crown for the loss of a village?

Let's look at Wilhelm.  Wilhelm was able to do needed research into demons (and research is often dangerous) and was able to do so without endangering the village.  The only reason his own grandaughter nearly got killed was because Wilhelm disabled his own security measures for members of his own family.

Even then, so what if his granddaughter got possessed?  It still doesn't allow the demon to leave (something the demon knows full well).

So in the end Wilhelm loses his life to his reserach.  Tragic but that somethings things like that happen.  (I note that the Curies died very early largely because of over-exposure to radiation...something they didn't know was a danger when they did their own research.) 

Worst case:  Wilhelm dies, and his grand-daughter dies.  Demon is contained.  Sounds like a class-3 or class-4 biolab to me.

So what's the problem again?

-Polaris

[MKfighter89]

I don't like the templars or Chantry in DA. They are trying to play god and then lock up the mages like animals cause their different. They are giving a power its a gift and a test and depends on the person who has this gift to see what comes of it. If the Chantry is so holy they would understand this and believe this instead they are afraid of whats different (which is human way). Even the the grand cleric who talks all holy is really just tippy toeing around the truth that what thier doing is wrong. Of course I do agree they need security measures but like in kirkwall thats just a pretty prison. The mages have no freedom they always no where their at and its a act of congress to leave the tower for a short time. 

Modifié par JillBSuiT, 23 juin 2013 - 11:50 .

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Yes, I can definitely see the various monarchies of Thedas getting behind hosting a foreign power which they have no defense against on their soil.

They may train all the templars they like for national defense, they just won't be able to imprison mages who haven't committed crimes against their citizenry.

Ok but then you run into the problem of trusting the mages to extradite their own to face justice, otherwise a mage can just commit a crime and then run back to territory they control to avoid punishment,  because as we've seen unless it effects them the mages won't police their own.

[kequilla]

Who says a merge between the groups is a bad idea?

[kequilla]

The issue of mages in DA, is that there is blood magic and there are demons looking to make a home in there minds. Both of these are resistable with discipline. That makes an organization required to train then. Also, theres fear of the Tevinter Imperium for anyone who also fears slavery; And Tevinter is damn near synonymous with mage. With the fact that every mage is a potential fount of pain and misery should they give into the allure of power in blood and the darker beings of the fade, every mage that isn't accounted for is a potential time bomb. But, ostracizing and isolating does not lessen the chances of a weak mage going BOOM. It just means its more likely to make a chain reaction. An organization is required to teach discipline but theres no room for a jailer/prisoner mirror; that's what led Thedas and the Chantry to this ruination. When every mage in the circle has fears associated with the Templars. With tranquility being a contender for a mages biggest fear (possession being the other), its no wonder many mages rebelled. 
 So to reiterate my point, I support reform. Now to say that the current conflict is a perfect storm. One of which neither the Tevinter Imperium nor the Qunari will overlook to gain advantage over the other. Not to mention The architect has been fairly silent in the last game. I expect him to make a this worse with another failed attempt at "fixing" the blight problem.

Don't mind me, just a mental splurge.

Modifié par kequilla, 24 juin 2013 - 03:49 .

[IceHawk-181]

DPSSOC wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Yes, I can definitely see the various monarchies of Thedas getting behind hosting a foreign power which they have no defense against on their soil.

They may train all the templars they like for national defense, they just won't be able to imprison mages who haven't committed crimes against their citizenry.

Ok but then you run into the problem of trusting the mages to extradite their own to face justice, otherwise a mage can just commit a crime and then run back to territory they control to avoid punishment,  because as we've seen unless it effects them the mages won't police their own.

An interesting claim considering the Mage Origin.
 
And wouldn't this problem be solved if we stopped treating Mages like sovereign entities and start treating them like Ferelden citizens subject to Ferelden law.
 
But that would necessitate all the effort of actually forcing the Landsmeet, the King, and the Mages to sit down and work out a meaningful solution.
 
And we all know that is impossible, well, just cuz....

[IanPolaris]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

But that would necessitate all the effort of actually forcing the Landsmeet, the King, and the Mages to sit down and work out a meaningful solution.
 
And we all know that is impossible, well, just cuz....

As a matter of fact in DAO there is precedent for this.  In the case of Jowan, you can point out that Jowan is a malificar and his crimes and what he's done stem from his misuse of magic.  As such, he should be judged by the Circle of Magi.  I think that's a very interesting and solid precedent (because Eamon agrees with yoiu and turns Jowan over to the circle for judgement) to permit mages to at least have a role in judging their own.

-Polaris

[Bleachrude]

IanPolaris wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

But that would necessitate all the effort of actually forcing the Landsmeet, the King, and the Mages to sit down and work out a meaningful solution.
 
And we all know that is impossible, well, just cuz....

As a matter of fact in DAO there is precedent for this.  In the case of Jowan, you can point out that Jowan is a malificar and his crimes and what he's done stem from his misuse of magic.  As such, he should be judged by the Circle of Magi.  I think that's a very interesting and solid precedent (because Eamon agrees with yoiu and turns Jowan over to the circle for judgement) to permit mages to at least have a role in judging their own.

-Polaris

Wait...you're actually arguing this is a _GOOD_ thing?

So if a mage steals something via magic, the government of Ferelden has no recourse but to turn said mage over to the circle which is controlled entirely by mages?

Am I the only one that sees this as completely contradicting the pro-mage argument that "mages should be treated like regular people"?

[dragonflight288]

Bleachrude wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

But that would necessitate all the effort of actually forcing the Landsmeet, the King, and the Mages to sit down and work out a meaningful solution.
 
And we all know that is impossible, well, just cuz....

As a matter of fact in DAO there is precedent for this.  In the case of Jowan, you can point out that Jowan is a malificar and his crimes and what he's done stem from his misuse of magic.  As such, he should be judged by the Circle of Magi.  I think that's a very interesting and solid precedent (because Eamon agrees with yoiu and turns Jowan over to the circle for judgement) to permit mages to at least have a role in judging their own.

-Polaris

Wait...you're actually arguing this is a _GOOD_ thing?

So if a mage steals something via magic, the government of Ferelden has no recourse but to turn said mage over to the circle which is controlled entirely by mages?

Am I the only one that sees this as completely contradicting the pro-mage argument that "mages should be treated like regular people"?

I don't think he was arguing it as a good thing, he was arguing that there is a precedent, and that mages and the Circle themselves are capable of judging and sentencing their own.

Personally, I think that if we send Jowan to the Circle, Irving would make a show of it, but it would be Gregoire and the Chantry that determined the ruling.

[DKJaigen]

Bleachrude wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

But that would necessitate all the effort of actually forcing the Landsmeet, the King, and the Mages to sit down and work out a meaningful solution.
 
And we all know that is impossible, well, just cuz....

As a matter of fact in DAO there is precedent for this.  In the case of Jowan, you can point out that Jowan is a malificar and his crimes and what he's done stem from his misuse of magic.  As such, he should be judged by the Circle of Magi.  I think that's a very interesting and solid precedent (because Eamon agrees with yoiu and turns Jowan over to the circle for judgement) to permit mages to at least have a role in judging their own.

-Polaris

Wait...you're actually arguing this is a _GOOD_ thing?

So if a mage steals something via magic, the government of Ferelden has no recourse but to turn said mage over to the circle which is controlled entirely by mages?

Am I the only one that sees this as completely contradicting the pro-mage argument that "mages should be treated like regular people"?

In the medical world its common that doctors are judged by their peers if something goes wrong. Why you ask? because most people now to little about human anatomy to reach the correct judgement. If Finn was caught by a templar  while using the ritual to find the lights of Arlathan he would likely be excecuted for use of bloodmagic. At the same time a templar can stroll into a mages laboratory in tower not realising that the mage is conducting unethical experiments.

Mages can only be judged by mages.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
That's Divine Justina's fault.  You don't call such a meeting unless you KNOW how the vote is going to go.  Fiona made it very clear that her attitude towards the Chantry and Justina was "too little/too damn late" and it was a legal vote and a vote that the circles were legally allowed to make.

-POlaris

That's bloody dark, even for you. It's like fixing the elections.
What's the point of calling a vote at all then?

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
That's Divine Justina's fault.  You don't call such a meeting unless you KNOW how the vote is going to go.  Fiona made it very clear that her attitude towards the Chantry and Justina was "too little/too damn late" and it was a legal vote and a vote that the circles were legally allowed to make.

-POlaris

That's bloody dark, even for you. It's like fixing the elections.
What's the point of calling a vote at all then?

You don't get out much then.  Not calling a vote (or allowing a vote to be called) until you KNOW how it's goiing to go is Parliamentary Procedure 101 not just in the US but around the world.  There is nothing 'dark; about it.  It's called politics (and Justina seems really bad at it).

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Your definition of fail is amusing.
The Templars in Ferelden did good given the circumstances.
You insistance that it proves their incompetence is illogical.

Yes they hide behind a door while left the mages they are sworn to protect to die while those mages made sure the demons where containted the templars did very well indeed for beings with such low competence. Buts its not only the fereldan circle. So far we have not seen a single templar hodl their own against demons or anything beyond the the confines of the circle. Cole for example killed many templars who where not able to resist him and even lambert got killed in the end.

They kept the abominations contained. That was their job. And they did it. Period.
At that point it was a matter of priority - making sure the abominations don't get out and keepign them there until lreinforcements arrive. After all, the Tower isnt' that big and not all templar are statioend there, and it was a big demon infestation.
Yes templars are sword to protect the mages. And they are also sworn to protect the populace. There was slim chances that there were survivors and going in was a HUGE risk - any templar lost was one less that can hold the doors. It was a smart choice. A tactical choice.


You are using a logical fallacy here.
You assume that if a system or a group fails to perform to your standards at ANY point - regardless of circumstances - that it automaticly means it's incompetent.
That is redicolous. No sane person would ever argue something like that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

You start by putting such a system in place with the consent of all parties.  You start by actually trying to solve the problem by treating all parties like human beings rather than monsters to be feared.

Godo luck gettign taht consent.

Alos you treat everyone as they are. And mages are dangerous. That is the reality.