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[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

In Exile wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Well I've never proposed such a thing. Lob hasn't either. He certainly understands the necessity of having some task force to guard against magical threats (the Templars).

Why do people act as if a secular order of abusers is somehow better?  Who exactly do you think is going to be drafted into this order? Why do you think the ruling class of Thedas is going to be any kinder or more benevolent than the Chantry? 

They won't. That's why the Circles must above all be independent.

And for the safety of the universe, this must be never allowed to happen.

Anything done to stop it is justified. ANYTHING. Even the Tranquil Solution.
To parrot your own words Xil - it is NECESSARY:devil:.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Your definition of fail is amusing.
The Templars in Ferelden did good given the circumstances.
You insistance that it proves their incompetence is illogical.

Yes they hide behind a door while left the mages they are sworn to protect to die while those mages made sure the demons where containted the templars did very well indeed for beings with such low competence. Buts its not only the fereldan circle. So far we have not seen a single templar hodl their own against demons or anything beyond the the confines of the circle. Cole for example killed many templars who where not able to resist him and even lambert got killed in the end.

They kept the abominations contained. That was their job. And they did it. Period.
At that point it was a matter of priority - making sure the abominations don't get out and keepign them there until lreinforcements arrive. After all, the Tower isnt' that big and not all templar are statioend there, and it was a big demon infestation.
Yes templars are sword to protect the mages. And they are also sworn to protect the populace. There was slim chances that there were survivors and going in was a HUGE risk - any templar lost was one less that can hold the doors. It was a smart choice. A tactical choice.


You are using a logical fallacy here.
You assume that if a system or a group fails to perform to your standards at ANY point - regardless of circumstances - that it automaticly means it's incompetent.
That is redicolous. No sane person would ever argue something like that.

1. Wynne contained the threat
2. You blabber how dangerous abominations yet the templars leave the mages behind who could be turned into abominations. The templars lives have less priority at this point and should have evacuated as many as mages as possible.
3. The entire circle system is created so that the templars could handle the problem easily but greagoir painted it as a one sided  battle in favor for the demons. 
4.. this is not the only place the templars are not sufficient for the taks. i cannot remember a single instance where a templar managed to resist a demon. In fact i see a lot of corrupted and brainwashed templars running around. unsuprising consdering their minds are damaged by the lyrium they use.

And now you have demonical horde to content with. my money is on the demonical horde.

[Lotion Soronarr]

1. Partially.

2. Abominatiosn are dangerous, but opening the door to go in means the abominations can get out. Protecting a 100 mages vs thousands of civilians. Going in with a handfull of tempalrs vs. waiting for reinforcmetns and goign in with an army?
It's a no-brainer.
You have 0 tactical sense. Thank god you will never lead an army in real life.

3. Yes, because there were that many demons. As he himself put it - they can handle a few (and evne that is a big thing, given how powerfull abominatiosn are lore-wise).

No system or defense is perfect. At *some* point ANY system, ANY Defense will fail, if the conditions are extreeme enough. At some point you reach a point of diminishing returns when designign defences or a system. Thus you design it to be cost-effective and practical and that it works in most situations.

4. Wut?

[Catroi]

kill them all

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1. Partially.

2. Abominatiosn are dangerous, but opening the door to go in means the abominations can get out. Protecting a 100 mages vs thousands of civilians. Going in with a handfull of tempalrs vs. waiting for reinforcmetns and goign in with an army?
It's a no-brainer.
You have 0 tactical sense. Thank god you will never lead an army in real life.

3. Yes, because there were that many demons. As he himself put it - they can handle a few (and evne that is a big thing, given how powerfull abominatiosn are lore-wise).

No system or defense is perfect. At *some* point ANY system, ANY Defense will fail, if the conditions are extreeme enough. At some point you reach a point of diminishing returns when designign defences or a system. Thus you design it to be cost-effective and practical and that it works in most situations.

4. Wut?

1. i didnt see any other entrance that needed to be sealed by wynne.
2. choke points are of strategic value. However according to your own lore leaving even one mage behind will result into the destruction of a city. saving a single mage is worth more then all the templars combined.
3. Then templars may as well drop their pants and bend over because the demonic horde is coming.
4. since you cannot understand the question i will make it simpler for you: i have never seen templars defeating demons. have you?

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Why do people act as if a secular order of abusers is somehow better?  Who exactly do you think is going to be drafted into this order? Why do you think the ruling class of Thedas is going to be any kinder or more benevolent than the Chantry? 

They won't. That's why the Circles must above all be independent. 

That was the point of the Magi Boon - with the Hero of Ferelden asking for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence, and Ferelden's new ruler publicly proclaiming that the mages have earned the right to govern themselves. I'd argue that the pro-mage Champion could have sought something similar, with seeking the overthrow of the templars.

The earlier proposal is similar to Thrask's initiative. An alternative to the Chantry controlled Circles, where mages played a role in protecting people, instead of being vilified by the reigning religion of the land. Instead of law enforcement comprised of mages and non-mages with templar-like abilities guarding Thedas, we now have autonomous mages who chose freedom over servitude. A war erupting across the continent, with Seekers and templars hunting down the mages who refused to submit any longer.

[Lotion Soronarr]

1. The doors are reinforced and magical. And we did see templars holding the door back agaisnt "something". Cutscene problem?

2. Yeah. And those mages are on the OTHER side of the door. That si the whole point. Keep the abominations in the tower. As long as they are locked in there, they aren't outside killing people.
To risk the lives of the civilian to save a mage or two?
No, going in is NOT worth it.

3. Because surely mages are slaying powerfull abominatios nand demons left and right? Oh wait...they don't.

4. What I have seen is templars being capable warriors with great resistance to magic. That makes them a great chocie agasint demons, who are both physicaly and magicly capable.
Templars are resistant to magic, and VERY resistant to possesion. That was proved in both DA:O (Cullen) and DA2 (with those crazed mages having to torture a templar with blood magic for DAYS to get them possesed... the mage in question even used the phrase that with those methods they can poses "even a templar". That, and Cullens and other characters reaction indicate that a templar becoming possesed is practicly unheard off.

[DKJaigen]

1. If you say so. its strange however you didnt encounter this something on the way in.

2.According to you an abominations can destroy cities. even if the entire fereldan army arrived they would not be able to take back the tower with so many mages being tortured and turned. or the entire abomination thing is overhyped.

3. Adrian cleared an entire room with hundreds of demons in it with one spell. second templars are not going to repair the veil any time soon, If you want to stop a demonic invasion your going to need mages .

4. demons use bloodmagic so the templars magic resistance is useless. not to mention bloodmagic is not the only ability demon shave or have you forgotten how easily cole murderd temolars. Demons are very capable melee fighters  and in one codex it is described how one revenant goes on a templar killing spree.

Cullen and Kerran (and i wonder how long they could hold out anyway)are the exception every other templar succumbed to corruption you see plenty of corrupted templars in da 1 and 2 under the influence of a demon. But its logical , you need a clear mind to combat demons and templars dont have any because of their lyrium addiction.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 24 juin 2013 - 11:34 .

[Medhia Nox]

@IanPolaris: Dragon Age mages aren't D&D wizards - they didn't learn their magic, they were born with it.

At most - they learn how to shape it. ((Dragon Age should have Wild Mages)). But a mage who only has enough power to shape a small flame - could NEVER shape a large fireball in the Dragon Age world.

Jowan is no more capable of using higher levels of magic than the Mage Warden is capable of being incompetent with spells. No "hard work" is going to give Jowan more gifts.

The only way for Jowan to get ahead - is to practice something like Blood Magic which breaks the genetic "rules" of magic in the Dragon Age universe.  ((One of the many reasons I think it's poorly concieved))

There isn't even equality amongst mages, and the only good thing about the Tevinter Imperium is that they've stopped lying to everyone (or never started)

There is no real world analogue for mages (maybe someone born to great wealth) - people just keep projecting.

I reject your assertion that mages "earned" their magic in the Dragon Age universe.

This isn't D&D or even Harry Potter (where all mages seem equally capable of magic).

========

@LotionSoronnar:  That's not really true. 

Presumably you're killing everything on your way up the Tower.  There's nothing to challenge the mages left protecting the door.

And real world militaries use tactical teams to accomplish goals all the time instead of moving vast armies.

If the Abominations could teleport off the island - then they would have already done so.  The island itself is a natural barrier. 

Greagor is holding the lowest level because abandoning it would make it even harder to Annul the place if necessary (and Greagor strikes me as a very noble man wanting badly to do right by the mages)

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 juin 2013 - 12:53 .

[Reaverwind]

DKJaigen wrote...

In the medical world its common that doctors are judged by their peers if something goes wrong. Why you ask? because most people now to little about human anatomy to reach the correct judgement. 

Mages can only be judged by mages.

Given what I know about the medical profession, you really don't want to use that argument to make your case.

[Medhia Nox]

@Reaverwind: Are you trying to tell me that doctors are prone to glossing over terrible malpractice to "protect their own"?

Do people actually "protect their own"?

Certainly cops NEVER do this! Certainly military personelle NEVER do this! Certainly Catholic priests NEVER do this! ((And anyone else in an insular organization built on serving a collective.))

Everyone can always be trusted to police themselves... you're wrong Reaverwind! WRONG!

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
2.According to you an abominations can destroy cities. even if the entire fereldan army arrived they would not be able to take back the tower with so many mages being tortured and turned. or the entire abomination thing is overhyped.

Gameplay.
And I saw 4 mages tortured or turned. Most were smart enough to fight back and die heroicly.

If hte warden and 3 supporting people can clear the tower, so can the templar army. See how utterly flawed your logic is? You refuse to even acknowledge the existence of story and gamepaly segragation.

3. Adrian cleared an entire room with hundreds of demons in it with one spell. second templars are not going to repair the veil any time soon, If you want to stop a demonic invasion your going to need mages .

Again, gameplay stupidity.

4. demons use bloodmagic so the templars magic resistance is useless. not to mention bloodmagic is not the only ability demon shave or have you forgotten how easily cole murderd temolars. Demons are very capable melee fighters  and in one codex it is described how one revenant goes on a templar killing spree.

No you silly man. Blood magic is still the same magic, only powered by blood. Resistances still work as usual, only blood-powered spells are stronger. They may be harder to resist, but can still be reisted.

Wait. First you argue demons/abominations are not dangerous? and now you argue that they are? Becuase I recall Uldred frakkin up every mage in the tower.
So yeah...so much for your "mages are so super-awesome" theory.

Cullen and Kerran (and i wonder how long they could hold out anyway)are the exception every other templar succumbed to corruption you see plenty of corrupted templars in da 1 and 2 under the influence of a demon. But its logical , you need a clear mind to combat demons and templars dont have any because of their lyrium addiction.

They aren't the exception.
While it's true that no one can hold out forever, the point is that tempalrs are extreemly ressilient.

What corrupted templars you are talking about? In DA2 we have 2-3 of them, that have become possesed after days of torture by blood-magic wielding mages. The mages in the Broken Circle folded instantly in comparison.

[Jovian09]

the handling of the mage/templar thing in DA2 was a little wonky. Sure, mages are brutally oppressed and imprisoned in Kirkwall... but then, more than half the mages you met DID turn themselves into abominations with blood magic and/or commit serious acts of terrorism.

[Medhia Nox]

@Jovian09: No, we ignore that.

It's what you do when someone's mean to you. You start giving your body over to demons, cutting yourself and blowing up buildings.

[Plaintiff]

Yeah, mages should just sit on their hands and keep their mouths shut. That's how you put a stop to institutionalised bigotry.

[operoth]

support the mages.

So what if you turn to blood magic those templars are hooked on lyrium. so really who are they and the chantry to say turning to blood magic is addictive and may lose themselves to demons and become abominations better to lose yourself to something with a fight than lose it to substance abuse!

I personally shall be taking blood magic as a specialization if it available sucking the health from my allies to fuel my power.....especially if there are any team members like fenris all his mage bashing gave me a headache, twas therefore satisfying everytime he fell due to me being a little over zealous with the sacrifice spell and not charitable with health potions on him.

Back to the original point mage support will be my focus and if there is an option to choose between the goody two shoes chantry sympathizer mages and blood mages that wish to overpower the chantry well lets just say religion is overrated when they hold you back from your full potential.

[Tenshi]

DKJaigen wrote...

1. If you say so. its strange however you didnt encounter this something on the way in.

2.According to you an abominations can destroy cities. even if the entire fereldan army arrived they would not be able to take back the tower with so many mages being tortured and turned. or the entire abomination thing is overhyped.

3. Adrian cleared an entire room with hundreds of demons in it with one spell. second templars are not going to repair the veil any time soon, If you want to stop a demonic invasion your going to need mages .

4. demons use bloodmagic so the templars magic resistance is useless. not to mention bloodmagic is not the only ability demon shave or have you forgotten how easily cole murderd temolars. Demons are very capable melee fighters  and in one codex it is described how one revenant goes on a templar killing spree.

Cullen and Kerran (and i wonder how long they could hold out anyway)are the exception every other templar succumbed to corruption you see plenty of corrupted templars in da 1 and 2 under the influence of a demon. But its logical , you need a clear mind to combat demons and templars dont have any because of their lyrium addiction.

those are most stupid arguments i heard today.

2. one pride demon wiped out whole fortress. im sure thats not dangerous.
3. adrian cleared room full of walking corpses, thats hardly an argument.
4. not correct, also cole is not demon but spirit and revenant is pride demon.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: And so - now they've pushed the mundanes.

If it turns out worse for mages - they have nobody to blame but themselves. And my Mage Inquisitor will be saying this a lot I suspect.

Not everyone chooses open rebellion as their First act of Civil Liberty.

You can blame Bioware for that - because you want to invent previous movements for freedom - or you can accept that there weren't any. Just whining - then war.

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah, mages should just sit on their hands and keep their mouths shut. That's how you put a stop to institutionalised bigotry.

Cool, next time a building blows up or someone kills a person, I'll think it's okay, they were oppressed. 

[Medhia Nox]

@Billy the squid: It's the "bad childhood" syndrome - everyone has a valid reason for being f-ed up and don't you DARE judge them!

[LobselVith8]

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah, mages should just sit on their hands and keep their mouths shut. That's how you put a stop to institutionalised bigotry.

Cool, next time a building blows up or someone kills a person, I'll think it's okay, they were oppressed. 

What about the next time someone commits genocide?

[SerenityRebirth]

 I didn't enjoy being forced to pick one side or another when both sucked in the end. It pissed me off that all the mages went blood mage and I couldn't stand the way templars were just hardcore conservative on their laws. Politically, it was irritating because I hate bieng forced into one extreme or the other. With this in mind, I hope such decisions aren't shoved down your throat. 

[billy the squid]

LobselVith8 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah, mages should just sit on their hands and keep their mouths shut. That's how you put a stop to institutionalised bigotry.

Cool, next time a building blows up or someone kills a person, I'll think it's okay, they were oppressed. 

What about the next time someone commits genocide?

If it's necessary to safguard Thedas, so be it. Or you could just submit.

[LobselVith8]

billy the squid wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What about the next time someone commits genocide?

If it's necessary to safguard Thedas, so be it. Or you could just submit. 

I didn't realize killing hundreds of people for having relationships with their family outside the Circle of Rivain or being innocent of the actions of one single man in Kirkwall was safeguarding anyone in Thedas.

[Medhia Nox]

@SerenityRebirth: With luck - "hunting down the forces of chaos..." will mean crushing both fanatical factions is a choice.