1799 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@SerenityRebirth: With luck - "hunting down the forces of chaos..." will mean crushing both fanatical factions is a choice.

There's only one fanatical faction that we know of yet. And if the rings are any indication of factions as a whole, it seems highly likely that the mage rebellion will be one of the moderate factions along with the Seekers, with the fanatics being the templars and whoever the red glowy people are.

[billy the squid]

LobselVith8 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What about the next time someone commits genocide?

If it's necessary to safguard Thedas, so be it. Or you could just submit. 

I didn't realize killing hundreds of people for having relationships with their family outside the Circle of Rivain or being innocent of the actions of one single man in Kirkwall was safeguarding anyone in Thedas.

Your actions are outright rebellion, they require purging so we can start with a clean slate.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Not everyone chooses open rebellion as their First act of Civil Liberty.

That sentence doesn't make sense.

Comparing the mage situation to modern civil rights movements is intellectually dishonest. Mages do not have the luxury of non-violent methods. Gays and blacks were not locked up in glorified death camps where a high-ranking priest could easily demand their slaughter if he was feeling particularly zealous that day.

The mages have no respect and no clout outside of their own community. Their only leverage is the power to cause violence, and they should've started using it a lot earlier. The only way change was ever going to come about was through violence, and anyone who believed otherwise was a fool.

Besides which, the mages are fighting purely in self-defense. They declared their intention to separate from the Chantry, the Divine allowed it, and the Templars and the Seekers broke away from the Chantry so they could pursue and slaughter an entire people who had done nothing to provoke them.

You can blame Bioware for that - because you want to invent previous movements for freedom - or you can accept that there weren't any. Just whining - then war.

There were previous movements. A conclave to discuss separating from the Chantry was held during the time of Awakening, and was only just barely rejected. Wynne had serious concerns that it might pass, and was scraping the bottom of the barrel for allies. Clearly, a not-insignificant number of mages have been pushing for freedom for a long time.

By your logic, everyone who petitioned for civil rights ever was just "whining".

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 juin 2013 - 04:44 .

[Xilizhra]

Comparing the mage situation to modern civil rights movements is intellectually dishonest. Mages do not have the luxury of non-violent methods. Gays and blacks were not locked up in glorified death camps where a high-ranking priest could easily demand their slaughter if he was feeling particularly zealous that day.

Well, blacks were... and that did require a war to sort out, or at least to begin sorting out.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: The mages are a rebellious faction who sided with the Libertarians and Anders. As far as I'm concerned - I will be treating them like fanatics.

Anyone who wants to recant their allegiance to that rebellion is welcome to do so - the rest will be subdued.

Also - you can reference the books all you want, but this is a forum for the video game. Until it is mentioned in Dragon Age: Inquisition - it is not part of my gaming experience.

====

Slavery had already been abolished in MANY nations without a war.  

Please stop thinking in terms of only American enslavement of Africans. 

What the mages experience isn't anything close to what Africans experienced in the American south.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 juin 2013 - 04:43 .

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah, mages should just sit on their hands and keep their mouths shut. That's how you put a stop to institutionalised bigotry.

Cool, next time a building blows up or someone kills a person, I'll think it's okay, they were oppressed. 

Herp derp. Maybe you should crack open a book instead and learn how to recognise oppression.

While you're at it, learn to recognise strawman arguments, and then stop using them.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 juin 2013 - 04:46 .

[IceHawk-181]

Part of your gaming experience or not, if it exists within the Canon of the IP it is a legitimate subject.

Gameplay mechanics do not override Storyline in any IP I am aware of...

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: You're treating a guilded cage like the worst form of oppression their is though.

It suggests that your perspective is distinctly First World if your view of oppression is fine bed sheets and well stocked kitchens.

[IceHawk-181]

Medhia Nox wrote...

====

Slavery had already been abolished in MANY nations without a war.  

Please stop thinking in terms of only American enslavement of Africans. 

What the mages experience isn't anything close to what Africans experienced in the American south.

You're right.
 
American Slaves were allowed to have families, practice their cultural heritage, and even seek manumission and full citizenship.
 
They had considerably more rights than the Mages.

[IceHawk-181]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: You're treating a guilded cage like the worst form of oppression their is though.

It suggests that your perspective is distinctly First World if your view of oppression is fine bed sheets and well stocked kitchens.

Yes, because the adornments of some minor creature comforts totally alleviate the reality that every Mage is under the absolute control of an external force to the point of their very souls being scoured of emotion and being reduced to autonomous workers.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: The mages are a rebellious faction who sided with the Libertarians and Anders. As far as I'm concerned - I will be treating them like fanatics.

Have fun being wrong. Or, perhaps, you could wait until the game actually comes out to make your declarations.

Also - you can reference the books all you want, but this is a forum for the video game. Until it is mentioned in Dragon Age: Inquisition - it is not part of my gaming experience.

All right, but you'll look highly foolish debating without all requisite information.

Slavery had already been abolished in MANY nations without a war.

In many nations, slavery wasn't based on race (which mages effectively are, or at least a biological grouping), or so deeply integrated into the culture.

@Plaintiff: You're treating a guilded cage like the worst form of oppression their is though.

There may be worse forms of oppression, but using that as your argument is a logical fallacy itself, akin to saying that no one except starving African children has any real problems.

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah, mages should just sit on their hands and keep their mouths shut. That's how you put a stop to institutionalised bigotry.

Cool, next time a building blows up or someone kills a person, I'll think it's okay, they were oppressed. 

Herp derp. Maybe you should crack open a book instead and learn how to recognise oppression.

While you're at it, learn to recognise strawman arguments, and then stop using them.

Because you're quite the expert on opression right. I'll recognise strawmen the day you learn not to be obtuse. 

[Karlone123]

It really depends on what things I can choose to do. Such as if I can choose from the start that I firmly stand with the Templars and choose to persecute all Mages I come into contact with, just as an example.

[Medhia Nox]

@IceHawk-181: You mean.... like Wynne? Who had a son and was given nearly full autonomy? Interesting - tell me more about these mages who aren't given any power of their own futures.

@Xilizhra:  You do understand I can't be wrong right?  If I chose that the mages are fanatics - your opinion that I'm wrong is irrelevant - you can understand that yeah?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 juin 2013 - 04:53 .

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@IceHawk-181: You mean.... like Wynne? Who had a son and was given nearly full autonomy? Interesting - tell me more about these mages who aren't given any power of their own futures.

A son who was stolen and relocated to a different country, and nothing close to actual autonomy; she only treated it like autonomy because of her inclination to suck up to the system.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Plaintiff: You're treating a guilded cage like the worst form of oppression their is though.

Are you reading my mind now? I can imagine much worse situations than the Circle. That doesn't mean the Circle is in anyway defensible. I don't hand out cookies to people for not being worse than they already are. 

It suggests that your perspective is distinctly First World if your view of oppression is fine bed sheets and well stocked kitchens.

Or maybe, just maybe, I'm not so shallow that I would allow frivolous creature comforts to distract me from a sword dangling over my head.

Bed sheets and food are utterly irrelevent when I know that I only enjoy them at the whim of a sadistic puppet master who holds the power of life and death over me.

[IceHawk-181]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@IceHawk-181: You mean.... like Wynne? Who had a son and was given nearly full autonomy? Interesting - tell me more about these mages who aren't given any power of their own futures.

@Xilizhra:  You do understand I can't be wrong right?  If I chose that the mages are fanatics - your opinion that I'm wrong is irrelevant - you can understand that yeah?

That is your counter argument?

Wynne's ability to have a child out of wedlock with a Templar, and subsequently have that child taken from her against her will is proof of freedom?
 
Solid logic there.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: Everyone holds the power of life and death over you - if you gave your government a reason to distrust you, you had best believe you would go missing.

As it turns out - you're just a mundane in the real world - likely not at all relevant to the people holding the sword over your head.

@IceHawke:  And her autonomy?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 juin 2013 - 04:57 .

[IceHawk-181]

Seriously, those of you attempting to claim that Mages are free are grasping at straws.

You can argue for the moral legitimacy of the Circle System if you are so inclined.

However an institutional force that physically separates families, imprisons individuals against their will, retains complete authority of life and death over said individuals without recourse, and actively indoctrinates said individuals is by definition enslavement.

The mere fact that some niceties of life are provided and that there is a limited allotment of supervisory authority within the system in no way alters the fundamental truth.

If you are forcibly retained under an authority you have not consented to and that authority retains the legal right to psychologically or physically murder you at a whim, you are not free.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Plaintiff: Everyone holds the power of life and death over you - if you gave your government a reason to distrust you, you had best believe you would go missing.

As it turns out - you're just a mundane in the real world - likely not at all relevant to the people holding the sword over your head.

"Everyone"? Hardly. I'm not kept in a cage, I am not banned from learning how to defend myself.

Saying the "government does x also" is not a defense of the Circle system, it just means the government also needs to change.

[IceHawk-181]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@IceHawke:  And her autonomy?

What autonomy?
 
When Wynne joined the King's army at Ostagar it was under the guard of the Templars and the direct supervision of the Chantry. When she had a child it was forcibly taken from her against her will. Her "autonomy" in Asunder was a special dispensation for action given to her by Divine Justinia V. Her political role within the Circles is one that is allowed by the Chantry and the Templars.
 
Where is the freedom?


There is a concept known a Slave Agency; simply because an individual is capable of operating within the bounds of slave system in no way means they are actually free. It merely means they have managed to scrape together a few concessions from the masters, willingly or surreptitiously.

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 24 juin 2013 - 05:11 .

[IceHawk-181]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Everyone holds the power of life and death over you - if you gave your government a reason to distrust you, you had best believe you would go missing.

As it turns out - you're just a mundane in the real world - likely not at all relevant to the people holding the sword over your head.

Yeah, some of us have the fortune to live in nations that derive their conceptualization of power from a Western Tradition that holds individuals have inherent rights and that governments rule through the consent of the governed. And that military forces are actually made up of the citizenry itself and are directly responsible to civil authority at all times.
 
 

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...
Because you're quite the expert on opression right.

Compared to you? Probably.

I'll recognise strawmen the day you learn not to be obtuse.

You're the only one being obtuse here.

"LOL, you think that Anders blowing up the Chantry is an act of legitimate rebellion against an oppressive system, so you must think everybody who bombs a building is oppressed! You don't agree with my personal parameters for situations where violence is acceptable, so you must be a craaaaaaaaazy anarchist who wants to bathe in the blood of orphaned puppies."

The only person who looks stupid when you post is you.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 juin 2013 - 05:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Slavery had already been abolished in MANY nations without a war.  

Please stop thinking in terms of only American enslavement of Africans.

Some of us were thinking of Saint Domingue and other examples of slave rebellion, outside of what transpired in the States.

Medhia Nox wrote...

What the mages experience isn't anything close to what Africans experienced in the American south. 

Without the Rite of Tranquility or the Right of Annulment, you have a good point.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 juin 2013 - 05:20 .

[lil yonce]

To answer the OP-- I am not on either side. Libertarians politics have some smoke and mirrors to it. I support the templars in bringing the mages back to the Circles and I support Justinia V-- there must be substantial changes to the current model through compromise.