1799 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

The Collective goes around bribing addicts.

[TEWR]

In fact I sort of suspect that the 'witness' that ratted Jowan out was none other than Uldred himself.

It's always been my belief, along with the belief that Uldred was the one that led Jowan to blood magic in the first place in some secret form -- possibly by just manipulating Jowan's jealousy of the Mage Warden -- for that very same reason (to rat him out, thus increasing his standing and hiding his own status)

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Collective goes around bribing addicts.

Given the relative powr and lack of oversight the Templars have, if I were the Mages Collective, I would too.  It's not as though the Templars and Mage's Collective are exactly on opposite sides either.  The mages collective has shown it is willing to and can discipline it's own members so the Templars don't have to.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

Well, I was under the assumption that bribery was illegal.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In fact I sort of suspect that the 'witness' that ratted Jowan out was none other than Uldred himself.

It's always been my belief, along with the belief that Uldred was the one that led Jowan to blood magic in the first place in some secret form -- possibly by just manipulating Jowan's jealousy of the Mage Warden -- for that very same reason (to rat him out, thus increasing his standing and hiding his own status)

We know for a fact that Uldred had goten praise and a strong reputation for being able to find and rat out hidden bloodmages in the tower.  I am of the belief that Uldred cultivated this reputation and quite deliberately tempted apprentices into bloodmagic and ratted those he didn't like out just to do this as well.

Given what Uldred says (if you are a mage warden), I got the impression that Uldred desperately wanted to rat out Irving's apprentice as well, but Irving's apprentice/mage-warden was too canny to be trapped that way.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, I was under the assumption that bribery was illegal.

So is magic outside the circle.  Your point?

-Polaris

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Collective goes around bribing addicts.

Even so, the Templars under the Redcliffe Knight-Commander's jurisdiction would help out the Mages' Collective in dealing with severe magical threats. We also see the Mages' Collective deal with magical threats -- the extermination of a cabal of maleficarum, for instance, along with the investigation of a disappearance of one of their own people who as it turned out took it upon himself to track down his idiot apprentice who went Abomination.

[IceHawk-181]

"If things were left to me it might be different, but the Chantry...I am sorry child, but this Rite of Tranquility will happen." – Irving, Mage Origin

Irving in no way states he would allow Jowan to go unpunished; it seems Irving would prefer to avoid the Rite particularly. However, as the First Enchanter explains the rules require sacrifice at times and his primary concern is to ensure that the Chantry (which he accuses of refusing to police its own quite explicitly) is forced to apply the same rules to its initiates.

Based on his reaction to the question about the removal of books on Blood Magic from the library, Irving seems to be of the mind that Mages must have access to knowledge and be allowed to learn from mistakes.

Of course, he is not exactly happy with the Warden if you hide Jowan's plot from him, as he makes abundantly clear.

Irving is not demanding no punishments, he is seemingly demanding the Chantry abide by its own rules, especially when one of his apprentices has been given a death sentence from which he has no appeal.

Insofar as the Mage refusal to submit to secular authority; based on what?
The Mages have canonically demanded independence from the Chantry not sovereignty. Their primary concern has always been the alleviation of Chantry & Templar oppression.

I do not recall a point at which the Mages demanded rights of extraterritoriality.

Requesting the right to administer education and justice in matters of Magic is not the same as declaring one's self exempt from the rule of law or the throne.

And quite frankly, I would more readily trust someone like an Irving or a Wynne to determine if a Mage has fallen to Demonic influence than the best guess of a Lyrium-addicted religious warrior indoctrinated to dehumanize his charges.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

We know for a fact that Uldred had goten praise and a strong reputation for being able to find and rat out hidden bloodmages in the tower.  I am of the belief that Uldred cultivated this reputation and quite deliberately tempted apprentices into bloodmagic and ratted those he didn't like out just to do this as well.

Certainly very plausible, given that we have to believe he's been teaching his own sect of Mages that use blood magic in the rebellion for some time.

He seemed to have been building his own personal force of like-minded Mages (and Jowan fit that bill, of wanting freedom) but perhaps felt that Jowan either wasn't cut out for it like he thought or as you and I believe simply ratted him out to use him as a pawn for what we know thanks to the codex Irving's Mistake.

Given what Uldred says (if you are a mage warden), I got the impression that Uldred desperately wanted to rat out Irving's apprentice as well, but Irving's apprentice/mage-warden was too canny to be trapped that way.

-Polaris

What is the dialogue, out of curiosity? I haven't rolled a Mage Warden through the game for a long while now.

[BlueMagitek]

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, I was under the assumption that bribery was illegal.

So is magic outside the circle.  Your point?

Almost all the reasonable mages (and certainly it's the cornerstone of
the Aequtarian Fraternity) believe that mages should be subject to rules
and codes of conduct (and even the outlaw Mage's Collective enforces
this in DAO).  As long as the circles had a SAW in what those laws and
mandates were, I don't see that the reasonable circle representatives
would object.

-Polaris

[IceHawk-181]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In fact I sort of suspect that the 'witness' that ratted Jowan out was none other than Uldred himself.

It's always been my belief, along with the belief that Uldred was the one that led Jowan to blood magic in the first place in some secret form -- possibly by just manipulating Jowan's jealousy of the Mage Warden -- for that very same reason (to rat him out, thus increasing his standing and hiding his own status)

We know for a fact that Uldred had goten praise and a strong reputation for being able to find and rat out hidden bloodmages in the tower.  I am of the belief that Uldred cultivated this reputation and quite deliberately tempted apprentices into bloodmagic and ratted those he didn't like out just to do this as well.

Given what Uldred says (if you are a mage warden), I got the impression that Uldred desperately wanted to rat out Irving's apprentice as well, but Irving's apprentice/mage-warden was too canny to be trapped that way.

-Polaris

Solid theory, I am fully onboard with this interpretation in fact. 

[Rikku Moon]

I pick the Mages definitely!! *powers up thunder and fireballs* The Templars are going DOWN!!! *lol* At least Morrigan is back in the games finally. Though I HOPE that the game can be joined with the old games like previous versions. I want to see if Morrigan has something to say about the BABY she gave birth to if I had my male Warden or Alistair sleep with her before the final battle with the Archdemon.

Templars and their self righteous, mage hating selves, who don't hesitate in kidnapping grown men and women and children from HAPPY homes who have family members who don't care or don't fear their relatives abilities and want to keep them, and then proceed to kill any family members who try to fight back to try and take back their mage relative as their being dragged away. How many broken homes did the Templars break up, magicless wives and husbands who have to be forced to stand back and watch helplessly as the men and women they love, despite KNOWING their spouses are mages, are dragged away by the Templars never to be seen again.

How many heartbroken kids were dragged kicking and screaming from their families, especially from the families who didn't CARE if their kid was a mage and still loved them and wanted to raise them if it wasn't for big mouthed neighbors who blabbed to the Templars about a dangerous mage living in the neighborhood.

The Templars don't care how young or old you are or if you are married and have families who NEED you. Once your discovered to be a mage its a one way trip to the Circle of Magi or an instant death sentence if you try and fight back. I mean come on if half the adult mages they captured managed to spend their entire lives WITHOUT ever being sent to the Circle for 'training', OR accidentally/purposely selling their souls to demons and turning into rampaging Abominations, or anything else the Templars and mage hating people fear would happen, why can't the adult mages who DON'T use their magic for evil purposes continue to live peaceful lives outside of the Circle?

The Templars don't care if they are hurting people, as long as they get what they want in their self righteous quest to capture and or kill every mage they can find who refuse to voluntarily turn themselves in to the Circle of Magi where they will be forced to spend the rest of their lives in a
'school' that's more like a prison, never being able to see the outside world ever again, until they either pass their Harrowing, or be turned into soulless Tranquils if they are deemed too dangerous to allow to remain they used to be.

Modifié par Rikku Moon, 25 juin 2013 - 03:16 .

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Collective goes around bribing addicts.

This post had been addressed before, but I'd like to add on to it.

The Chantry goes around creating addicts, and the templar codex makes it quite clear that the templars recruit mainly from those with religious fervor and moral character is a secondary concern.

Which means the chantry has an army of religious zealots who don't question their orders and may not have moral scruples, and the mages collective bribe them with the substance the chantry got them addicted to in order to continue operating in key areas, such as Redcliff.

Bribing is illegal, but the real question, which I will  not answer as it is quite subjective, is, "which is the more moral course of action?"

Taken down to the implications, the fact that the collective searches for the Scrolls of Bannorn, and their ability to bribe Knight-Commanders can be unsettling as it compromises the authority of the templars in the area, but the Chantry's practices creates a sense of doubt on the credibility of the templars as a holy order if their morality and integrity is questionable at best.

I support the mages simply because I hold individual liberty and freedom to be more important than paranoia over what mages "might" do.

But between the bribing and the templar recruiting practices, I ask yet again, and will not give an aswer. "Which is more morally correct?"

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, I was under the assumption that bribery was illegal.

So is magic outside the circle.  Your point?

Almost all the reasonable mages (and certainly it's the cornerstone of
the Aequtarian Fraternity) believe that mages should be subject to rules
and codes of conduct (and even the outlaw Mage's Collective enforces
this in DAO).  As long as the circles had a SAW in what those laws and
mandates were, I don't see that the reasonable circle representatives
would object.

-Polaris

In WWII hiding Jews and other non-desirables was illegal, but the underground would often  bribe German officials to look the other way.  How is this any different than the Mage's Collective bribing Templars to look the other way.

If your very existance is illegal, then you do what you need to do.  That doesn't mean you like or condone it, but if the alternative is worse....

-Polaris

[IceHawk-181]

What you fail to realize Rikku Moon is that there is no such thing as a well-adjusted Mage; they are all walking time bombs of death and destruction and will eventually eviscerate their own children in a rage if they step in a pile of dung on the way to the market...

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What is the dialogue, out of curiosity? I haven't rolled a Mage Warden through the game for a long while now.

In the harrowing Chamber, Uldred-Abomination makes the comment that you were :"Irving's Star pupil and that Uldred didn't like you then, and he doesn't see your appeal now."  Maybe I am reading into it a bit, but the professional jealousy and hatred is very plain (and that's remarkable from someone that was a Senior Enchanter towards one that was a mere apprentice, but the "star" part tells me that you were probably the most powerful and skilled mage of an entire generation...not to mention the most canny.

JIMHO

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

What you fail to realize Rikku Moon is that there is no such thing as a well-adjusted Mage; they are all walking time bombs of death and destruction and will eventually eviscerate their own children in a rage if they step in a pile of dung on the way to the market...

At last, this human gets it!

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

What you fail to realize Rikku Moon is that there is no such thing as a well-adjusted Mage; they are all walking time bombs of death and destruction and will eventually eviscerate their own children in a rage if they step in a pile of dung on the way to the market...

At last, this human gets it!

You might want to get your sarcasm detector checked.  Just a guess mind you....

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

What you fail to realize Rikku Moon is that there is no such thing as a well-adjusted Mage; they are all walking time bombs of death and destruction and will eventually eviscerate their own children in a rage if they step in a pile of dung on the way to the market...

At last, this human gets it!

err....

How about there being so such thing as a well-adjusted individual if you take the sarcasm out of that first sentence. A templar might step in a pile of mabari crap, freak out and start stabbing people left and right with his sword of mecy and eviscerate mages family members who aren't mages on the way to the market.

lol

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What is the dialogue, out of curiosity? I haven't rolled a Mage Warden through the game for a long while now.

In the harrowing Chamber, Uldred-Abomination makes the comment that you were :"Irving's Star pupil and that Uldred didn't like you then, and he doesn't see your appeal now."  Maybe I am reading into it a bit, but the professional jealousy and hatred is very plain (and that's remarkable from someone that was a Senior Enchanter towards one that was a mere apprentice, but the "star" part tells me that you were probably the most powerful and skilled mage of an entire generation...not to mention the most canny.

JIMHO

-Polaris

You might be reading into it, because I recall Wynne saying that Uldred disliked tutoring anyone on Circle magic, so it's probably just him exhibiting that mentality towards the Mage Warden. Still, it is something to consider.... very possible that he did want to get rid of the Mage Warden.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You might be reading into it, because I recall Wynne saying that Uldred disliked tutoring anyone on Circle magic, so it's probably just him exhibiting that mentality towards the Mage Warden. Still, it is something to consider.... very possible that he did want to get rid of the Mage Warden.

Maybe, but there are other indications.  When you go through the Mage Origin story, it's made very clear that you are the very best magical student and mage in a generation.  Cullen remarks "It's the quickest and cleanest harrowing he's ever seen".  While Cullen may be relatively green, I am pretty sure he wouldn't have said it that way if Gregoire (who was supervising) didn't agree.  Jowan turned to bloodmagic out of jealousy regarding the warden's abilities. 

Finally, Irving, the first enchanter himself chose to be your mentor.

Given what Uldred was apparently like and given that Uldred wanted to (eventually) discredit Irving for himself, I think it's pretty safe to say that Uldred probably did have it out for the mage Warden.  Of course most of this is guesswork, but I think it's good solid guesswork.

-Polaris

[IceHawk-181]

dragonflight288 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

What you fail to realize Rikku Moon is that there is no such thing as a well-adjusted Mage; they are all walking time bombs of death and destruction and will eventually eviscerate their own children in a rage if they step in a pile of dung on the way to the market...

At last, this human gets it!

err....

How about there being so such thing as a well-adjusted individual if you take the sarcasm out of that first sentence. A templar might step in a pile of mabari crap, freak out and start stabbing people left and right with his sword of mecy and eviscerate mages family members who aren't mages on the way to the market.

lol

Silly thought, Templars do not have Magic, therefore they cannot by definition be immoral. I mean, come on, they serve the Chantry, therefore whatever action they chose is by definition one the Chantry authorized, and is therefore the moral choice.

 Templars

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, I was under the assumption that bribery was illegal.

So is magic outside the circle.  Your point?

-Polaris

We got a group of fugitives, carrying weapons of mass destruction, bribing; with drugs, no less; the police officers meant to protect the people from these fugitives and not only does it fall to every member's personal judgement to decide when his fellow fugitives are being too harmful, their sole method of policing each other is to place a note in a bag and hope someone feels like picking it up or even finds it amidst requests for elfroot.
And you don't see an issue with that? No breaches in security; no conceivable manner in which these people might just become dangerous?

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 juin 2013 - 04:23 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, I was under the assumption that bribery was illegal.

So is magic outside the circle.  Your point?

-Polaris

We got a group of fugitives, carrying weapons of mass destruction, bribing; with drugs, no less; the police officers meant to protect the people from these fugitives and not only does it fall to every member's personal judgement to decide when his fellow fugitives are being too harmful, their sole method of policing each other is to place a note in a bag and hope someone feels like picking it up or even finds it amidst requests for elfroot.
And you don't see an issue with that? No breaches in security; no conceivable manner in which these people might just become dangerous?

I see mages as people.  You clearly don't.  That's all I have to know.

-Polaris