1799 réponses à ce sujet

[Sovereign970]

I agree with the people who said that the circle system was best, but I do side with the mages, The templars will probably, declare the right of annulment for the entire war, which means they will legally kill all mages in a certain circle if the need arises. Well, knowing the templars they'll use the right of annulment to say all the circles have banded together thus giving them the right to kill all mages in thedas. The mages should just stand down, but I think they should turn the circles into more of a school, rather than a prison/mental ward.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, I was under the assumption that bribery was illegal.

So is magic outside the circle.  Your point?

-Polaris

We got a group of fugitives, carrying weapons of mass destruction, bribing; with drugs, no less; the police officers meant to protect the people from these fugitives and not only does it fall to every member's personal judgement to decide when his fellow fugitives are being too harmful, their sole method of policing each other is to place a note in a bag and hope someone feels like picking it up or even finds it amidst requests for elfroot.
And you don't see an issue with that? No breaches in security; no conceivable manner in which these people might just become dangerous?

I see mages as people.  You clearly don't.  That's all I have to know.

-Polaris

Am I to understand then you would be in support of bribing police; dissolving the laws that determines what constitutes a crime and what does not and have all law enforcement be reliant upon placing your woes in a bag and hope someone picks it up? (and I'm not even mentioning the fact some people would have acess to weapons of mass destructions and others would not)
Because we're just as much people as the mages. If they can be trustwed to behave in this circunstances, so could we.

I'm guessing you would not be.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 juin 2013 - 04:39 .

[KiwiQuiche]

@MisterJB

Assuming you know someones mind in your post like that doesn't do you any favours.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Am I to understand then you would be in support of bribing police; dissolving the laws that determines what constitutes a crime and what does not and have all law enforcement be reliant upon placing your woes in a bag and hope someone picks it up? (and I'm not even mentioning the fact some people would have acess to weapons of mass destructions and others would not)
Because we're just as much people as the mages. If they can be trustwed to behave in this circunstances, so could we.

I'm guessing you would not be.

That depends on what sort of "police" we are talking about.  If it's WWII and I am hiding Jews or other undesirables in occupied Europe, I'd have no moral qualms about bribing the local german officials.  I see this in exactly the same way.

-Polaris

[KiwiQuiche]

Godwin's Law again.

[Soltan Heatwave]

I will probably support the mages. The collective did tell me that mages outside of the circle were willing to police themselves. Not all mages are time bombs ready to turn abomination just for the fun of it, though Kirkwall did demonstrate that there were a number of mages in the circle willing to turn to blood magic to free themselves. A number of the Kirkwall mages didn't turn to blood magic and died fighting without resorting to it, thankfully a number of them were able to escape.

The entire "keep them locked up" mentality seems to be too extreme to me, but is reasonable when it first occurred, right after the "conversion" of the Tevinter empire. The evil of the Magisters was fresh in everyone's mind and the chantry wanted to do something to prevent it from happening again. If my Thedas history is correct the Templars's were a zealot group who started killing mages after the Split between the Chantry factions, and Tevinter started to revert to it's old customs. The "circle solution" was agreed to to stop the war between the Templar's and the Mages.

After about a thousand years, of the circle, many people, Templars and Mages alike seemed to forget what the circle was truly about. They may have said it, preached it, and taught it, but I believe that -- As absolute power corrupts absolutely -- the circles began to deteriorate with the Templars beginning to assert more and more control and power over the mages. As the mages lost more and more of their rights and freedom they began to rebel. A few of them escaped and joined associations -- like the collective, while others turned to blood magic and became abominations - thereby losing, not only their freedom but, their very selves. Unless there is an option available where the mages can regain much of their lost rights and freedoms and another solution to the circles found I will do everything I can to help them. Returning them to the circles would only perpetuate the unfounded assumption that they are guilty by birth, but the victimization of them would become even worse, or would occur again in time.

Modifié par Soltan Heatwave, 25 juin 2013 - 04:52 .

[IanPolaris]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Ah, there we go. ****'s again.

OK, would Khmer Rouge occupied Cambodia work better for you (and I am hiding a so called 'intellectual')?

It's the same thing.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

As I understand Godwin's law, the mere mention of ****s does not actually invoke it. It's the inappropriate usage of it to try and prove a point that invokes it.

Ian's point is very much solid and the mention of World War II works. It's not saying the Templars are all ****s. It's saying the set of circumstances the Mages' Collective operate under to get by are similar to what happened to the Jewish people in ****-run Germany.

In this case, the corollary of Henderson's Law is in effect.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2013 - 05:17 .

[Plaintiff]

I always thought Godwin's Law was more like "You know who else was a vegetarian? HITLER!"

The Chantry-run Circle system does bear similarities to Asterisk Germany, and it's a comparison that the writers themselves deliberately encouraged with Alrik's "Tranquil Solution".

Acknowledging the similarities of the two systems is totally valid.

[TEWR]

That's the more common usage, I believe, but regardless it's all off topic and unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

At MisterJB, while the Mages' Collective's methods at doling out requests may strike you as bad, remember that before the Warden came along they had managed to keep themselves in secret, which feasibly wouldn't be possible if there were many known instances of blood mages/Abominations running about and certainly couldn't all be bribed away.

Besides, I saw evidence that the Denerim Knight-Commander wouldn't do his job in regards to the Blood Mage hideout that existed in Denerim. One Templar brought his suspicions and IIRC had some evidence to his superior and the matter wasn't investigated at all. It was discarded out of hand and the man took it upon himself to deal with it (there's a good Templar) and ended up dying for it at the hands of a gang of thugs.

Granted, I don't approve of everything the Collective does. The Mages having complete power, for instance, is something I do not want the Collective to still abide by because that would more then likely lead to Tevinter 2.0.

But so far, this has not become an issue.

Ideally, it would be a 3 party system in my mind where the Templars, Seekers, and Mages all have a say in things and the Seekers are -- like the Wardens -- made up of people from all backgrounds (Elves, Dwarves, Men, Mages, etc.) and ideologies.

[Yevetha]

"Magic was made to serve man.."
I'm for mages answering the Maker's call. The are supposed to be servants of the people. It is very hard to serve people locked away in a tower as the Circles do.

I'm also in favor of Templar's remembering what the sword on their chest stands for. It is not the sword of judgment. Nor is it the sword of wrath or fear or hate or oppression, it is the sword of mercy. It is not the place of enemies or jailers, or keepers, or watcher to extend the sword of mercy, but it is the sword of a friend. A friend who has walked with one though life, though shared trauma and triumph and defeat.

Let mages roam the world, and let the Templars who travel with them be their friends. So that should a mage fall to darkness, the Templar will be there to prevent the mage from becoming what he most despises: Malificar.

Modifié par Yevetha, 25 juin 2013 - 07:05 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
And were the results of one man only. Gaider said that the right of annullment was not justified in Kirkwall, and that Meredith's superiors would have come down on Meredith hard.

That's not what he said.

[DPSSOC]

IanPolaris wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Ok but then you run into the problem of trusting the mages to extradite their own to face justice, otherwise a mage can just commit a crime and then run back to territory they control to avoid punishment,  because as we've seen unless it effects them the mages won't police their own.

An interesting claim considering the Mage Origin.

You mean where the First Enchanter admits he wouldn't punish Jowan were it up to him?

Nope.  The first enchanter said that if it were up to him, things might be different.  Remember that at that time, we have absolutely no evidence that Jowan has done anything wrong other than dally with an initiate and get someone to send hate-mail about him to Gregoire.  In fact I sort of suspect that the 'witness' that ratted Jowan out was none other than Uldred himself.

Whatever evidence Gregoire presented to Irving was obviously enough or he wouldn't have signed the Rite, he's allowed to refuse.  Irving clearly trusts it, even if it is just Uldred's word, so he believes Jowan is practicing blood magic on top of his relationship with Lilly.  Yet he openly states that were it not for Gregoire and the Templars he wouldn't be pursuing the Rite. 

IanPolaris wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...
But that would necessitate all the effort of actually forcing the Landsmeet, the King, and the Mages to sit down and work out a meaningful solution.
 
And we all know that is impossible, well, just cuz....

Well it'd be difficult bordering on impossible to convince the mages to accept a new set of mundane mandates to follow after casting off the old ones.

Almost all the reasonable mages (and certainly it's the cornerstone of the Aequtarian Fraternity) believe that mages should be subject to rules and codes of conduct (and even the outlaw Mage's Collective enforces this in DAO).  As long as the circles had a SAW in what those laws and mandates were, I don't see that the reasonable circle representatives would object.

Except the reasonable mages, from what I understand, aren't calling the shots.  It's instigators like Fiona and nut jobs like Adrian, people you can't negotiate with.  Not to mention we've seen that mages won't accept greater restrictions on their activities in exchange for mobility and autonomy because that's what started the Circle in the first place.

IanPolaris wrote...

Except Bleach is talking about mundane crime not magical crime.  If a doctor steals or commits murder he isn't judged solely by doctors.  Sure for magical malpractice let mages judge mages but for everything else they should face, at least, the same justice as everyone else, if not harsher.

In the case of Redcliff, Jowan was guilty of both a mundane crime (poisoning the Arl) but also of a purely magical one.  Not only that but the damage caused by Jowan's actions stemmed almost entirely from the fact that both he and Conner were mages.  That being so, it seems a very reasonable thing to ask the circle to judge it's own.  However, that is a point that could be negotiated in good faith.

-Polaris

No it isn't because as I said they won't.  The Mages Collective hunts down blood mages and abominations because they make their existence more difficult.  Take away the need to hide, to keep a low profile, and they won't bother anymore.  As I said we've seen that unless it effects them the mages won't reign themselves in.  In 7 years not one Mage of conscience stepped forward about blood magic in the Circle, hell the First Enchanter hindered any attempt to investigate it.  If Orsino was confident he could convince Elthina to prevent Meredith from searching the Gallows I'm sure he could convince her to not let Meredith kill/Tranquil mages who aren't guilty.

Negotiation in good faith requires there be some and the mages don't have any, nor have they shown any inclination to extend it to others.

[Xilizhra]

Except the reasonable mages, from what I understand, aren't calling the shots. It's instigators like Fiona and nut jobs like Adrian, people you can't negotiate with. Not to mention we've seen that mages won't accept greater restrictions on their activities in exchange for mobility and autonomy because that's what started the Circle in the first place.

Fiona's perfectly reasonable, and templars cannot be negotiated with. As Hawke mentions, sometimes you just have to stand.

No it isn't because as I said they won't. The Mages Collective hunts down blood mages and abominations because they make their existence more difficult. Take away the need to hide, to keep a low profile, and they won't bother anymore. As I said we've seen that unless it effects them the mages won't reign themselves in. In 7 years not one Mage of conscience stepped forward about blood magic in the Circle, hell the First Enchanter hindered any attempt to investigate it. If Orsino was confident he could convince Elthina to prevent Meredith from searching the Gallows I'm sure he could convince her to not let Meredith kill/Tranquil mages who aren't guilty.

And why should they? It's as a means of protection against the templars; it was probably overall a good thing.

Negotiation in good faith requires there be some and the mages don't have any, nor have they shown any inclination to extend it to others.

It's because the templars don't even understand the concept, and because the Chantry is quite happy to let the templars trample the mages.

[TTTX]

DPSSOC wrote...
 In 7 years not one Mage of conscience stepped forward about blood magic in the Circle, hell the First Enchanter hindered any attempt to investigate it.  If Orsino was confident he could convince Elthina to prevent Meredith from searching the Gallows I'm sure he could convince her to not let Meredith kill/Tranquil mages who aren't guilty.

Negotiation in good faith requires there be some and the mages don't have any, nor have they shown any inclination to extend it to others.

Meredith wasn't what I would call a reasonble person, giving enough she would probably think Elthina was controled via blood magic, killed her and somehow blame it on the mages.

There are extermist on both sides on the conflict of the war who don't want a peaceful ending to it, they just want the other side dead no matter what.

Meredith showed what happens when you put a paranioed Templar who sees bloodmages every where in charge.<_<

While the mage who killed Hawkes mother shows the bad side of mages.

Tevinter mages is more of culture thing, because they are basically raised to think they should rule no matter what, anyone who threatens their power gets killed.

[Reaverwind]

Soltan Heatwave wrote...

I will probably support the mages. The collective did tell me that mages outside of the circle were willing to police themselves. Not all mages are time bombs ready to turn abomination just for the fun of it, though Kirkwall did demonstrate that there were a number of mages in the circle willing to turn to blood magic to free themselves. A number of the Kirkwall mages didn't turn to blood magic and died fighting without resorting to it, thankfully a number of them were able to escape.

The entire "keep them locked up" mentality seems to be too extreme to me, but is reasonable when it first occurred, right after the "conversion" of the Tevinter empire. The evil of the Magisters was fresh in everyone's mind and the chantry wanted to do something to prevent it from happening again. If my Thedas history is correct the Templars's were a zealot group who started killing mages after the Split between the Chantry factions, and Tevinter started to revert to it's old customs. The "circle solution" was agreed to to stop the war between the Templar's and the Mages. 

No, the Circles were formed long after Tevinter converted (Emperor Drakon is credited for them in one of the Codex entries). They came into existence as a compromise betweeen mages who wanted to openly practice magic and the Chantry which wanted to prohibit most magic. Why the mages didn't get smart and go underground is beyond me (this would have also provided a strong incentive to police their own, similar to the Collective situation.) The Templars were re-organised from the various zealot groups who went about hunting heretics as well as mages, and predate the Chantry split. See: Nevarran Accord.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 25 juin 2013 - 12:39 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
That depends on what sort of "police" we are talking about.  If it's WWII and I am hiding Jews or other undesirables in occupied Europe, I'd have no moral qualms about bribing the local german officials.  I see this in exactly the same way.

-Polaris

When in doubt, resort to loaded terms nevermind how badly they fit the situation. It's about as intellectually dishonest as me claiming Merril and Danarius are the same thing just because they both use blood magic.

But, fine. You think it's perfectly acceptable to bribe police officers and not at all a sign of moral corruption. That doesn't change the fact the Collective system has not clearly defined what constitutes as a crime; thereby, an apprentice could kill an entire family and his master ignore it so long as it doesn't attract the templars; and, even should a mage feel a crime is serious enough to report; and if the missions given are any indication, a crime is not serious enough unless it risks earning templar attention; this mage has two options, either deal with it himself or place it in a bag and hope someone picks it up. Can you imagine our world working like that:

"I saw two suspicious men loitering around my house. I thus call upon a willing citizen to do something about it."

I would call it an innefective system but that would be an insult to innefective systems. Honestly, the templars get so much criticism because of lack of accountability; which is an argument I even partially agree with; but the Collective gets a free pass?

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 juin 2013 - 04:19 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
That depends on what sort of "police" we are talking about.  If it's WWII and I am hiding Jews or other undesirables in occupied Europe, I'd have no moral qualms about bribing the local german officials.  I see this in exactly the same way.

-Polaris

When in doubt, resort to loaded terms nevermind how badly they fit the situation. It's about as intellectually dishonest as me claiming Merril and Danarius are the same thing just because they both use blood magic.

But, fine. You think it's perfectly acceptable to bribe police officers and not at all a sign of moral corruption. That doesn't change the fact the Collective system has not clearly defined what constitutes as a crime; thereby, an apprentice could kill an entire family and his master ignore it so long as it doesn't attract the templars; and, even should a mage feel a crime is serious enough to report; and if the missions given are any indication, a crime is not serious enough unless it risks earning templar attention; this mage has two options, either deal with it himself or place it in a bag and hope someone picks it up. Can you imagine our world working like that:

"I saw two suspicious men loitering around my house. I thus call upon a willing citizen to do something about it."

I would call it an innefective system but that would be an insult to innefective systems. Honestly, the templars get so much criticism because of lack of accountability; which is an argument I even partially agree with; but the Collective gets a free pass?

The Collective doesn't have the backing of the dominant religion on the continent, and is forced to work entirely in secret.

So yes, I'll extend more leeway to them than I do to the Templars.

[MisterJB]

If you can't do it, fine, leave it to the professionals. But don't tell me that you're enforcing the Chantry's laws because you clearly aren't.
I, for one, would prefer if people's lives weren't dependant on papers and bags and each mage's personal moral judgment.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 juin 2013 - 04:35 .

[Marvin_Arnold]

I stand with the Grey Wardens.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
If you can't do it, fine, leave it to the professionals. But don't tell me that you're enforcing the Chantry's laws because you clearly aren't.

Well, I never claimed that. The Chantry's laws suck, I don't necessarily want a lot of them to be upheld.

I, for one, would prefer if people's lives weren't dependant on papers and bags and each mage's personal moral judgment.

Well, when the Templars are cleansed from the Earth with fire, and the Collective is finally able to operate openly, a more reliable and effective system can be instituted.

As it is, they do the best they can with the tools they've got, and so far they've also managed not to rape anybody. 

Modifié par Plaintiff, 25 juin 2013 - 04:45 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Well, I never claimed that. The Chantry's laws suck, I don't necessarily want a lot of them to be upheld.

Yeah, I'm talking about the first courier you meet. He says the Collective uphold the Chantry's laws amongst themselves which is, of course, bullsh*t and he is lying to the Warden's face.

Well, when the Templars are cleansed from the Earth with fire, and the Collective is finally able to operate openly, a more reliable and effective system can be instituted.

Ah, the usual mage response. It's not my fault I'm a dangerous wreck, blame the templars
I mean, it's not like there are Collective members asking for books on blood magic and demon summoning or turning into abominations. These are really trustworthy people.

As it is, they do the best they can with the tools they've got,

Paper, bag, no laws.
That's not doing the best you can, that's not giving a sh*t.

and so far they've also managed not to rape anybody. 

Asks that mages not all be judged for the actions of a few.
Judges all templars for the actions of two.

[stuboy52]

Though i'm more pro Mage i think as the inquisition originally intended there should be a balance. Remember the inquisition is effectively seeker's+Templar's but may also at least for my inquisitor accepts that magic users cooperation is necessary to establish order over magic and tackle the issues.

Magic must be careful observed and misuse must be dealt with, the issue being the Templar's became so focused (out of fear, paranoia) on brutal oppression of all magic users.
But come on i want Cullen as the main Templar in the new inquisition i built because he is a reasonable Templar (most of the time). Therefore a compromise despite what Anders claims is the best possible solution and those who disagree face the wroth of the inquisition.

Both sides are to blame in equal measure so a exterior force in the form of the Inquisition is required. But the option to fully back one over the other would be nice.

No compromise for the chantry for me though, nothing worse than a neutral idle organisation that only fans the flames of the conflict. (idea that mages corrupted the golden city as of Legacy seems to be a false assumption from the chantry anyway)

Modifié par stuboy52, 25 juin 2013 - 05:16 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
Yeah, I'm talking about the first courier you meet. He says the Collective uphold the Chantry's laws amongst themselves which is, of course, bullsh*t and he is lying to the Warden's face.

Oh well.

Ah, the usual mage response. It's not my fault I'm a dangerous wreck, blame the templars

"The templars can't possibly be culpable in the creation of the toxic environment of the Circles. Mages are just big crybabies all the time. If my kids were stolen from me I wouldn't even blink."
 

I mean, it's not like there are Collective members asking for books on blood magic and demon summoning or turning into abominations. These are really trustworthy people.

I don't necessarily have a problem with blood magic or the summoning of demons.

Paper, bag, no laws.
That's not doing the best you can, that's not giving a sh*t.

Pffffft.

Even putting aside the fact that the Mages Collective operates in an identical manner to every other organization the Warden encounters, including the Chantry, with it's noticeboard requests, a better system would require resources they don't have, and an environment where they aren't forced to operate in secrecy for fear of slaughter, which is also non-existent.

Asks that mages not all be judged for the actions of a few.
Judges all templars for the actions of two.

> Doesn't understand the very obvious difference between being born into a minority and willingly joining an organization.
> This doesn't really need a part two.

Even if one charitably ignores the fact that Alrik and Keras have buddies who are clearly in on this with them, there is also the fact that higher-ranking Templars like Cullen and Meredith deliberately ignored the gross abuses occurring right under their noses. Besides which, anyone who has even the most basic knowledge of human psychology knows that rape and other violent crimes are exponentially more likely to occur in an environment like the Circle. It's an inherent flaw of the system.