1799 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
"The templars can't possibly be culpable in the creation of the toxic environment of the Circles. Mages are just big crybabies all the time. If my kids were stolen from me I wouldn't even blink."

"Honestly, I don't know why the templars don't like us. Hey, Andrea. Are you done planting a bomb in that church? I need some help grafting these bulbous bags of fleshy tissue into the wall?
No can do, I'm much too busy pouring lyrium into this templar's skull until his eyes burst."
Why should anyone fear magic? It only lead to the most brutal empire in the history of Thedas that still opresses all "ungifted".
 

I don't necessarily have a problem with blood magic or the summoning of demons.

Which doesn't suprise me one bit. But even you should be able to see how a group of mages who claim to follow the Chantry's laws and then summons demons are liars and thus not really trustworthy.

Even putting aside the fact that the Mages Collective operates in an identical manner to every other organization the Warden encounters, including the Chantry, with it's noticeboard requests,

Requests that are only placed there if the templars are much too busy or the requests are just insignificant like fixing a roof. Otherwise, they'll just send its armed force to deal with the criminal.

a better system would require resources they don't have, and an environment where they aren't forced to operate in secrecy for fear of slaughter, which is also non-existent.

If they can't police themselves, kindly stop putting the people of Thedas at danger, thank you very much.

> Doesn't understand the very obvious difference between being born into a minority and willingly joining an organization.
> This doesn't really need a part two.

Even if one charitably ignores the fact that Alrik and Keras have buddies who are clearly in on this with them, there is also the fact that higher-ranking Templars like Cullen and Meredith deliberately ignored the gross abuses occurring right under their noses. Besides which, anyone who has even the most basic knowledge of human psychology knows that rape and other violent crimes are exponentially more likely to occur in an environment like the Circle. It's an inherent flaw of the system.

Minority. Eh. Yeah, now you've said it all.
Honestly, if we are going to point out inherent flaws in systems, I'm certain we will find many more in whatever it is the Collective is doing.

Flaws in the system does not mean those flaws are actually specified in the rules that determine how the system works. That is to say, it's not part of a templars job description to rape mages which means that if you say templars are not qualified to police mages because two templars raped their charges it means that you are blaming all mages for the flaws of two.

And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how Cullen was supposed to prove Karras raped Alain even if he had denounced the crime, which he didn't.

[vpacheco1984]

It was more then two templars. They were the two that were named but there were a lot more then just them they just weren't named. It wasn't just rape, it was torture, beating, starvation, isolation which has extremely negative psychological on people, illegal tranquil rites preformed left, right and center along with everyone telling them they are evil and the reason the world is going to ****. For Christ sake these conditions are what create monsters. The mages are not monster until the templars and the chantry gets a hold of them and MAKE them that way.

[badboy64]

I think I will stay neutral until I hear it both from the templars and mages themselves when the game comes out. Maybe there is a achievement for siding with either one of them.

[MisterJB]

That street goes both ways. Tevinter existed long before the Chantry therefore, one could just as easily say this treatments occur today because the mages made the non-mages this way.
The truth is that there are many monstruous mages in Thedas who never suffered a day of persecution in their lives.

I focused on the two known rapist because Plaintiff specifically mentioned rape and because pro-templars get constantly accused of condemning all mages from the crimes of a few but pro-mages get free pass to do the same to the templars.
The conditions in Kirkwall's Circle were hardly optimal, yes; due in no small part to the constant mage criminal activity justifying Meredtih's measures; but you're going to have an hard time proving all the templars were abusing their charges when we know for a fact that is just not so.

[Medhia Nox]

@vpacheca1984: I'm fairly certain Connor never met a Templar.

He wiped out most of Redcliff.

[Faust1979]

That all depends on the character I make and what I think their goals are. I don't personally have a side

[vpacheco1984]

Well when you walk into the Gallows you can hear people being tortured. There are all the tranquil who pretty much say they are the sex toys of templars. Meredith's measures were not justified by any stretch of imagination it was straight up hate on her part and she wanted nothing less then total and complete genocide even before she went bats*th crazy. Back peddling a little here the majority of the "mage criminal activity" can be traced back to the templars, to Meredith.

There wasn't constant mage criminal activity in Kirkwall they were part of gangs but there wasn't any all bloodmage gang who went around sacrificing virgins and kittens and if you talking about Quinten not even Meredith tried to stop him. He was as crazy as Meredith over the loss of his wife, makes you wonder how she died. I am not making excuses for the fruit cake he should have been stopped long before any of that crap went down but a lot of people dropped the ball on that one.

Please name me some mages who were monstrous who never suffered a day of persecution in their lives and Tevinter magisters don't count. Yeah they are mages but they are also politicians and politicians are corrupt. Look at the Orlsians they are just as corrupt if not more so then the Tevinter Magisters. The Orlsians own slave too and guess what the majority of them aren't mages. I don't like magisters so I don't say this easily but at least they are honest they call a slave a slave and don't dress it up as anything less were all the rest of Theadus own slaves either calling them indentured servants or circle mages, and yes they are slaves in several places in the the game and lore mages are referred to as Chantry PROPERTY.

I will say there are good templars but they are sorely out numbered by ones who aren't so good. The templar and chantry organizations as a whole are corrupt, they are give far to much power with little to no oversight. They can do whatever they like with no fear of repercussion for the action.

They need to revamp the entire system so that mages and templars are more equals then guard and prison so that if either mage or templar does something to the other they both face the same consequences not an unfair imbalance (ie mage slaps a templar they get lashed or made tranquil/ a templar beats a mage to death and s/he is promoted). Where the first-enchanter does have the power to protect their charges but doesn't have to.

[Medhia Nox]

@Morocco Mole: It's not much different in DA:O.

Zathrian, Jowan, Morrigan, Connor, Uldred - Anders and that dippy elf witch from Awakening - they're all pretty depraved in one way or another.

The best of them... Irving and Wynne - still seem to be dullards when it comes to anything remotely magical. Wynne doesn't have a single thing but parable to offer when asked about the Fade - and Irving is just a scheming old codger (though he does try to say "something" about the Fade in the beginning - it's hardly deep magical theory).

Dagna - the non-mage dwarf - is the only character in Dragon Age with anything to actually contribute to magic.

[vpacheco1984]

You have to remember that mages are extremely restricted on what they can study and what they are allowed to talk about.

Zathrian was an angry father who needed someone to blame for his pain. Jowan was an idiot who wanted just wanted a life with someone he loved and made some really bad decision. Morrigan was rasied by someone who isn't quite human and completely insane, so all things considered she turned out pretty well. She even tells demons to go f**k themselves. Uldred was angry and stupid and fell for the wrong person crap. Anders was really messed up and made a really bad decision regarding Justice and then after years and years of going the peaceful rout lost it. Velnna another pissed of elf who blamed humans for the loss of everyone and everything she loved even if some of it was her own fault. Connor was a scared little boy who a sub-standered teacher who did teach him about the dangers of the fade and just wanted to save his father. Irving after living in a system were a templar could beat you to with an inch of your life and possibly get a promotion for it you would be come a "scheming old codger" too. Wynne is little more then an apologist who thinks that she needs to say thank you to the templars in between sucking them off.

[vpacheco1984]

She not rational she thinks that a system that allows unimaginable abuses to happen is a good thing and that every mage should be happy never seeing the sun or sky without a barred window or feel the wind on their face. That it's okay to have her child taken from her before she even sees him, then to allow that child to be executed or made tranquil for something he didn't do. Telling them to just sit back and enjoy while the nice templar bends them over a table and rapes them. She is not rational she is a brainwash idiot who only useful to my warden because she could heal.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 25 juin 2013 - 10:00 .

[vpacheco1984]

Everything I said is completely true of her character. Read Asunder, she even tells Rys that she should have left him in the cell, that he had been locked in for four days with no food or water, to be made tranquil because he was a libertarian and didn't agree with her that mages should be happy being nothing but property to be used and thrown away when they break.

[Mykel54]

One important thing to note is that Kirkwall is not the best example of how the Circle works, it is actually the worst. For two reasons.

1) The templars are the ones ruling the city, not the viscount. This means that they can get away with abusing the mages if they like. This happens in the game, when you see some templars who enjoy abusing the power they have over mages (Alrik is the most obvious), but most avoid taking advantage of the situation. You can see this in the letter bethany writes to you from the circle.

2) The circle is situated on a terrible place. The veil is thin on Kirkwall, so it is very easy for any disgruntled mage to get in contact with demons, and start doing blood magic. Added to this, the circle is stationed on a former tevinter prison, with all the slave-like statues not even removed. No wonder the place is demoralising and feels like a prison, if that is exactly what it was built for.

I would remove the circle from kirkwall and move it somewhere else, maybe merging it with the starkhaven one. At the very least, i would build a new building for the circle that looks nice and is in a secure area, and not reuse some old tevinter prison cells. If you want to see how a real circle is supposed to work, then look at the fereldan one in DAO, because the kirkwall one was made so terrible on purpose in order to facilitate being the place where the conflict first comes to blows.

[Ziggeh]

Morocco Mole wrote...

The only two decent mages I can remember in DA2 are Bethany and one other guy whose name I can't remember because he was such a minor character.

The rest are either deranged blood mages, are turn into deranged blood mages. Or just really stupid in Merrill's case.

I can see why they did that; it was important their be two sides rather than oppressor versus the oppressed, but I can't help feeling it cheapened things. If both sides had been portrayed as sympathetic, but forced by circumstance into conflict it would have been a really wrench to take sides, but instead both parties are a gaggle of irrational bungholes. I ended up lumping with a side on really arbitrary terms simply because it lacked the option to shout: "Hey, you guys realise this would be resolved if you weren't all just being douches, right?"

[wolfhowwl]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I can see why they did that; it was important their be two sides rather than oppressor versus the oppressed, but I can't help feeling it cheapened things. If both sides had been portrayed as sympathetic, but forced by circumstance into conflict it would have been a really wrench to take sides, but instead both parties are a gaggle of irrational bungholes. I ended up lumping with a side on really arbitrary terms simply because it lacked the option to shout: "Hey, you guys realise this would be resolved if you weren't all just being douches, right?"

Yeah, it was very hard to either side seriously when they were both full of cartoonishly evil people. Which is why I usually refer to Origins. Which had more rational characters on both sides.

Agreed. It was very frustrating and the poor representation of both sides was very damaging to the story.

Unfortunately there are some people who are outraged by all the psycho bloodmages coming out of the woodwork but are a-okay with DA2's Nazzi Rapist Templars or think that didn't even go far enough in portraying the Templar "oppressors." They seem to want another "Cerberus Treatment" based on personal dislike rather than any interest in the story.

I guess they are more interested in pushing their ideology.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 25 juin 2013 - 10:31 .

[Ziggeh]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Yeah, it was very hard to take either side seriously when they were both full of cartoonishly evil people. Which is why I usually refer to Origins. Which had more rational characters on both sides.

Yeah, though I feel that the Circle choice could itself have been stronger. It's not so much about sides as empathy or not. If I were them (and hindsight being 20/20 and all), I'd have played up the danger to the region, and the subtlety of possession. Made it more of a point to say that even if you save the mages, any of them could be harbouring a monster - that annulment is the only way to be sure. That would have made it more of a risk/reward, opposing philosophies kind of deal.

I mean, all that is in there, when you give it thought, but the actual gameplay choice was less nuanced (and also sort of came down to whether you wanted a healer or not).

Modifié par Ziggeh, 25 juin 2013 - 10:48 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Morocco Mole wrote...
Yeah, it was very hard to take either side seriously when they were both full of cartoonishly evil people. Which is why I usually refer to Origins. Which had more rational characters on both sides.

Same.  Origins had Wynne, Irving, Greagior, even Morrigan and Flemeth.  With Irving and Greagior, I could see the tensions of the templar vs. mage thing as well as the sympathetic sides of both.  By the end of DA2, I just wanted to throw all the mages and templars in Kirkwall (including party members other than Bethany) into a giant Sarlacc pit.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 25 juin 2013 - 10:41 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Morocco Mole wrote...

It is really frustrating that Bethany (a character you can only get if you don't pick mage) is the only intelligent magic user in the entirety of Dragon Age 2.

Hmm.  Trying to think of others.  Alain isn't so bad (from the Starkhaven sidequest).  He mostly got caught up in a mess that wasn't really his fault.  Ella, from the Dissent quest, seems like a nice girl.  Emile du Launcet isn't what I'd call intelligent, but he's mostly harmless.  Malcolm's also represented positively in Legacy.

That's pretty much all I got.  On the flip side, the list of sane templars is equally short, and mostly composed of bit part characters like the ones listed above.