1799 réponses à ce sujet

[vpacheco1984]

Morocco Mole wrote...

No she doesn't she runs off crying then when you find her next to Orison
she stands around with her thumb up her ass. Then after Orsion is dead
she blames you and the other for what happened to Orsion, which is true,
then after you kill Orsion she give up and tells you to kill her. Then
you can save her or let Mereidth run her through. So she never once
fights you or the templars she just runs off and given the fact she is a
self-hating coward she most likely killed the magelings

lolwut

How can you defend the guy that murders his own apprentices in the templar ending out of cold blood then start accusing Bethany of murder?

I'd say you are a troll. But I'm never sure anymore on BSN. Especially when it comes to the mage argument

If he had killed all of his apprentices he would have killed Bethany to. So why wasn't she dead and part of that thing Orison became. Because he didn't kill them the templars did he just used the bodies.

[TEWR]

Well, technically he doesn't admit to murdering them. He just says they were willing sacrifices. More then likely, yes, in his broken state of mind (and considering everything that's going on, his mind snapping is understandable) he did murder them, but we never actually see Orsino kill them.

[TEWR]

Except she is? Merril is a character that lacks common sense to a near unrealistic level. So if their intention was to show her as a smart bloodmage, they failed the second she starts rambling and acting like a ditz.

I ramble all the damn time. Doesn't mean I'm an idiot.

[dragonflight288]

Except she is? Merril is a character that lacks common sense to a near unrealistic level. So if their intention was to show her as a smart bloodmage, they failed the second she starts rambling and acting like a ditz.

Who also is suffering culture shock. Who also happens to be the biggest expert on on demons and how to fight them that we see in-game, being able to recognize the type of demons in the Deep Roads, immediately tell you to think of physically active activities when we encounter a sloth demon as a way to defend yourself, can tell Kerran is possessed, extrapolated information from a single shard of an original eluvian, cured it of its taint, And then proceeded to build an eluvian from scratch on her own, even if she couldn't figure out how to activate it.

And when she sought out the demon in Act 3, she took precautions and brought Hawke along to kill her should she be possessed, and admits to an aggressive Hawke that only powerful magic can release the demon from the statue, and she had no intention of doing it.

None of that resembles stupid in the slightest. You may think she's ditzy and stupid in her banter, but I find her hilariously sarcastic and uses dry humor frequently.

[The Hierophant]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Except she is? Merril is a character that lacks common sense to a near unrealistic level. So if their intention was to show her as a smart bloodmage, they failed the second she starts rambling and acting like a ditz.

Who also is suffering culture shock. Who also happens to be the biggest expert on on demons and how to fight them that we see in-game, being able to recognize the type of demons in the Deep Roads, immediately tell you to think of physically active activities when we encounter a sloth demon as a way to defend yourself, can tell Kerran is possessed, extrapolated information from a single shard of an original eluvian, cured it of its taint, And then proceeded to build an eluvian from scratch on her own, even if she couldn't figure out how to activate it.

And when she sought out the demon in Act 3, she took precautions and brought Hawke along to kill her should she be possessed, and admits to an aggressive Hawke that only powerful magic can release the demon from the statue, and she had no intention of doing it.

None of that resembles stupid in the slightest. You may think she's ditzy and stupid in her banter, but I find her hilariously sarcastic and uses dry humor frequently.

Her involvement in "Night Terrors" still makes me question her common sense/magical prowess.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 26 juin 2013 - 05:56 .

[TEWR]

The Hierophant wrote...

Her involvement in "Night Terrors" still makes me question her common sense/magical prowess.

Pride and Desire Demons, when in the Fade or when they have a strong connection to it in the real world, are capable of dominating the minds of other people and using them for their own ends. Everyone in the party becomes subject to the mind control aspect and will remark upon how their thoughts were not their own afterwards.

Save for Hawke, because he's apparently some sort of special snowflake.

[The Hierophant]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Her involvement in "Night Terrors" still makes me question her common sense/magical prowess.

Pride and Desire Demons, when in the Fade or when they have a strong connection to it in the real world, are capable of dominating the minds of other people and using them for their own ends. Everyone in the party becomes subject to the mind control aspect and will remark upon how their thoughts were not their own afterwards.

Now this bothers me as it means that the Pride Demon from the Mage Origin should have been capable of controling any apprentice, but it choose not too for any number of unspecified reasons.

Save for Hawke, because he's apparently some sort of special snowflake.

Don't forget about the warden or spirits like Justice.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 26 juin 2013 - 06:15 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]The Hierophant wrote...

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]The Hierophant wrote...

Her involvement in "Night Terrors" still makes me question her common sense/magical prowess.

[/quote]

Pride and Desire Demons, when in the Fade or when they have a strong connection to it in the real world, are capable of dominating the minds of other people and using them for their own ends. Everyone in the party becomes subject to the mind control aspect and will remark upon how their thoughts were not their own afterwards.[/quote]
Now this bothers me as it means that the Pride Demon from the Mage Origin should have been capable of controling any apprentice, but it choose not too for any number of unspecified reasons.
[/quote]

You were no match for "mouse" in the Mage Origin story, but apparently 'mouse' finds you interesting as you are.  All this proves is the warden is a special snowflake.

I also note that the Night Terror's quest is especially badly done and is a completely unfair representation of what mages experience (since Feynriel is a Somniari and not a typical mage) and apparently in that realm NO ONE could resist demons except Hawke (who is some type of special snowflake) and Anders (who is already possessed).

[quote]

[quote]Save for Hawke, because he's apparently some sort of special snowflake.[/quote]
Don't forget about the warden or spirits like Justice.
[/quote]

The warden is just as much a special snowflake.  As for Anders, you can't possess what's already possessed.  Anders says this himself.

-Polaris

[/quote]

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Her involvement in "Night Terrors" still makes me question her common sense/magical prowess.

Pride and Desire Demons, when in the Fade or when they have a strong connection to it in the real world, are capable of dominating the minds of other people and using them for their own ends. Everyone in the party becomes subject to the mind control aspect and will remark upon how their thoughts were not their own afterwards.

Now this bothers me as it means that the Pride Demon from the Mage Origin should have been capable of controling any apprentice, but it choose not too for any number of unspecified reasons.

You were no match for "mouse" in the Mage Origin story, but apparently 'mouse' finds you interesting as you are.  All this proves is the warden is a special snowflake.

I also note that the Night Terror's quest is especially badly done and is a completely unfair representation of what mages experience (since Feynriel is a Somniari and not a typical mage) and apparently in that realm NO ONE could resist demons except Hawke (who is some type of special snowflake) and Anders (who is already possessed)

There's still Uldred a senior enchanter who was dominated by a Pride Demon.

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...

There's still Uldred a senior enchanter who was dominated by a Pride Demon.

Which he deliberately summoned making his mind vulnerable.  Not only that but apparently Uldred was summoning a lot of demons which is.....foolhardy....at best.  In short hardly a typical situation.

-Polaris

[Sable Rhapsody]

vpacheco1984 wrote...
No she doesn't she runs off crying then when you find her next to Orison she stands around with her thumb up her ass. Then after Orsion is dead she blames you and the other for what happened to Orsion, which is true, then after you kill Orsion she give up and tells you to kill her. 

I don't recall this "Orsion" figure.  Or "Orison" for that matter.  Maybe they're twins!

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 26 juin 2013 - 07:25 .

[vpacheco1984]

I horrible with names and I suck at spelling.

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 26 juin 2013 - 08:24 .

[Ziggeh]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I facepalm anytime someone is actually willing to ignore what DAII presents on Merrill in favor of calling her a "stupid ditz/****** ****" and the like.

In fairness, she tells you what she's up to and you go "wow, this'll clearly end badly", and then it ends really badly. Even if she she spent the rest of the game doing brain surgery on rockets it qualifies her as pretty daft. 

[Ieldra]

Ziggeh wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I facepalm anytime someone is actually willing to ignore what DAII presents on Merrill in favor of calling her a "stupid ditz/****** ****" and the like.

In fairness, she tells you what she's up to and you go "wow, this'll clearly end badly", and then it ends really badly. Even if she she spent the rest of the game doing brain surgery on rockets it qualifies her as pretty daft. 

You'll have to ask if it is her fault that it ends badly. I'd say the clan's prejudices and the keeper's secretiveness are more of a factor here. Marethari didn't give her the relevant information that might have caused her to back down or at least be more careful. And lastly, we don't know what would've happened had she been able to go through with her plan.

If we suspect that this will end badly, it's because it usually goes that way in stories, not because of any in-game hint. I'd like to see a story break that pattern again like DAO did with Bhelen.

[Ziggeh]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd like to see a story break that pattern again like DAO did with Bhelen.

Yeah, it would have definitely been more interesting for both the plot and relationship if she'd been proved right. Or at least partially. If she'd overturned the prejudice on blood magic and such. That would have been a solid counterpoint to themes in the main plot.
Instead it plays out like a shakey after school special. I couldn't help feeling she'd been "taught her place" in some way, and that her optimism and enthusiasm were portrayed as flaws.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd like to see a story break that pattern again like DAO did with Bhelen.

Yeah, it would have definitely been more interesting for both the plot and relationship if she'd been proved right. Or at least partially. If she'd overturned the prejudice on blood magic and such. That would have been a solid counterpoint to themes in the main plot.
Instead it plays out like a shakey after school special. I couldn't help feeling she'd been "taught her place" in some way, and that her optimism and enthusiasm were portrayed as flaws.

Blinf enthusiasm and optimism CAN be flaws. A lot of it is dependant on the context.

would the story be more interesting if Merril was right? MAybe. Maybe not.
"Interesting" is certanly VERY subjective.

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

"Interesting" is certanly VERY subjective.

Well obviously. But it would have been contrary to the obvious and predictable comeuppance she receives for questioning the established order of things. It would have presented a complexity to the main plot that doesn't exist without it. It would have added things that couldn't be assumed or hadn't already been covered.  

I consider more things to consider to be of interest, but of course, that is subjective.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I still maintain that with the Redcliffe Templars on their side the Collective would pass along a few requests to Harrith or whatever his name is for some of the more.... dangerous aspects that would necessitate Templar involvement. Things the Warden isn't able to look through.

And if they don't happen to do that, then they should. But I maintain that they do, because that is the sensible thing to do.

And I maintain they don't because one of the letters in the bag specifically asks for someone to hunt down a coterie of blood mages which is the kind of job you'd expect to be syphoned to the bribed templars.

Of course, you could say that mage couldn't call the templars because they hadn't been paid that month's bribe which, of course, means the people's safety would be reliant not just on the goodwill of the Collective but also on them meeting their quota which is terrible.

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I facepalm anytime someone is actually willing to ignore what DAII presents on Merrill in favor of calling her a "stupid ditz/****** ****" and the like.

In fairness, she tells you what she's up to and you go "wow, this'll clearly end badly", and then it ends really badly. Even if she she spent the rest of the game doing brain surgery on rockets it qualifies her as pretty daft. 

You'll have to ask if it is her fault that it ends badly. I'd say the clan's prejudices and the keeper's secretiveness are more of a factor here. Marethari didn't give her the relevant information that might have caused her to back down or at least be more careful. And lastly, we don't know what would've happened had she been able to go through with her plan.

If we suspect that this will end badly, it's because it usually goes that way in stories, not because of any in-game hint. I'd like to see a story break that pattern again like DAO did with Bhelen.

It doesn't even really end that badly; you trade one blinded and easily led Keeper for a demon hidden in a mountain, and proved some major points regarding Eluvian construction. The only thing missing is how to switch the thing on. I'd call the ultimate outcome more or less net neutral; it was a good try, regardless.
Also, I never told Merrill it'd end badly.

[Rikku Moon]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

No I'm spot on about Bethany. She is a traitor to her own kind who like I said most likely killed the magelings for the templars oh I forgot she was[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sideways.png[/smilie] probably reciting the Chant of Light while she was doing it.

Except she fights the Templars, hell she'll fight you if you make her.

No she doesn't she runs off crying then when you find her next to Orison she stands around with her thumb up her ass. Then after Orsion is dead she blames you and the other for what happened to Orsion, which is true, then after you kill Orsion she give up and tells you to kill her. Then you can save her or let Mereidth run her through. So she never once fights you or the templars she just runs off and given the fact she is a self-hating coward she most likely killed the magelings

i think bethanny got the short end of the stick in life. she grew up on the run with a human mother and human twin brother, a possible human, or mage, older brother and a mage for a father. she had to grow up seeing the hardships in life that all mages had to face as she had to hide what she was in order to keep herself, her brother dad safe. she probably finally broke down and gave up, tired of having to constantly hide what she was and turned herslef in

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

"Interesting" is certanly VERY subjective.

Well obviously. But it would have been contrary to the obvious and predictable comeuppance she receives for questioning the established order of things. It would have presented a complexity to the main plot that doesn't exist without it. It would have added things that couldn't be assumed or hadn't already been covered.  

I consider more things to consider to be of interest, but of course, that is subjective.

Complexity?

The "established order" often exist for a reason.
Or do you want a story about a kid sticking his finger in a electric outlet and finding gold there, thus ending with "complexity" because he questioned "the established order"?
Not that twisting a trope is a trope in itself.


Also, Bethany is one of the few good mages. She's one of the reasons my Hawke sided with the mages at the end.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 26 juin 2013 - 01:13 .

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Complexity?
The "established order" often exist for a reason. Or do you want a story about a kid sticking his finger in a electric outlet and finding gold there, thus ending with "complexity" because he questioned "the established order"?Not that twisting a trope is a trope in itself.

As I say, it would have added additional things to consider within other elements of the plot or decisions asked of the player. 
By "established order" (and in this case it exists to service the narrative) I mean the elements that have already been covered, into which her arc comfortably fell. There is nothing wrong with this, but it was an opportunity to add to the wider context that I felt was not taken.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Oh goody, a Merrill discussion.

She's intelligent, but made WIS her dump stat, if you know what I mean.

Some people seem to call Merrill stupid because she makes decisions that they disagree with, which is utterly ridiculous - especially when the protagonist is a human who is completely ignorant about elven culture and the Eluvian.

BlueMagitek wrote...
As for Bethany, she is literally the sanest, kindest mage in DA:2. I'm only sorry I can't have both her and Carver (or at least have more time with both).

That would have been interesting.

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

There's still Uldred a senior enchanter who was dominated by a Pride Demon.

Which he deliberately summoned making his mind vulnerable.  Not only that but apparently Uldred was summoning a lot of demons which is.....foolhardy....at best.

 
Including Niall's retelling of the attack, there's no mention of Uldred summoning multiple demons before he became possessed.

In short hardly a typical situation.

-Polaris

I doubt it as the majority of mages in both games casually summon demons during the story, cinematics, and gameplay.