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Where do YOU stand in the Mage/Templar War?


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#1126
IanPolaris

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The Hierophant wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

There's still Uldred a senior enchanter who was dominated by a Pride Demon.


Which he deliberately summoned making his mind vulnerable.  Not only that but apparently Uldred was summoning a lot of demons which is.....foolhardy....at best.

 
Including Niall's retelling of the attack, there's no mention of Uldred summoning multiple demons before he became possessed.


Nope.  Just redid that scene a bit agao.  Nial clearly uses the plural when talking about Uldred summoning demons.  Uldred (per Niall) summoned more than one.


In short hardly a typical situation.

-Polaris

I doubt it as the majority of mages in both games casually summon demons during the story, cinematics, and gameplay.


Not the point.  You are trying to use exceptional situations to make a general point, and I am calling you on it.

-Polaris

#1127
The Hierophant

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*double post*:?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 26 juin 2013 - 07:33 .


#1128
The Hierophant

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IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

There's still Uldred a senior enchanter who was dominated by a Pride Demon.


Which he deliberately summoned making his mind vulnerable.  Not only that but apparently Uldred was summoning a lot of demons which is.....foolhardy....at best.

 
Including Niall's retelling of the attack, there's no mention of Uldred summoning multiple demons before he became possessed.


Nope.  Just redid that scene a bit agao.  Nial clearly uses the plural when talking about Uldred summoning demons.  Uldred (per Niall) summoned more than one.

My game is uninstalled can you post a link or the dialogue directly as i can't find a video where the player highlights that specific dialogue?

Polaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Polaris wrote...

In short hardly a typical situation.

-Polaris

I doubt it as the majority of mages in both games casually summon demons during the story, cinematics, and gameplay.


Not the point.  You are trying to use exceptional situations to make a general point, and I am calling you on it.

-Polaris

Nearly the majority of the mages who summoned a demon or demons were possessed regardless of their skill/experience. That's the reason i mentioned Uldred as he's a senior enchanter class mage (Irving's go to guy) who was still possessed. Using Feynriel's situation during "Night Terrors" as an excuse to dumb down my point about the influence of demons when there's other examples littered in the series is not a counter to my point.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 26 juin 2013 - 07:38 .


#1129
Guest_Morocco Mole_*

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Some people seem to call Merrill stupid because she makes decisions that they disagree with, which is utterly ridiculous - especially when the protagonist is a human who is completely ignorant about elven culture and the Eluvian.


No, I call her stupid because of her "gigglesquee" personality.

#1130
dragonflight288

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Morocco Mole wrote...

Some people seem to call Merrill stupid because she makes decisions that they disagree with, which is utterly ridiculous - especially when the protagonist is a human who is completely ignorant about elven culture and the Eluvian.


No, I call her stupid because of her "gigglesquee" personality.


So you think she's stupid because she tries to be happy and look on the brighter side of things?

#1131
Lady Mortho

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Well personaly I'm an evil blood mage who wants all mages to rule over the lesser creatures. I'd use the good mages to fight back then kill all of them except the evil ones >;D

#1132
LobselVith8

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Morocco Mole wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I facepalm anytime someone is actually willing to ignore what DAII presents on Merrill in favor of calling her a "stupid ditz/****** ****" and the like.

And my mouth begins to snarl a bit. Odd that. I think all the erroneous mudslinging has begun to get on my nerves to such degree that I can't stand it anymore.

Like what happens when Loghain is trash-talked or Anora is too.


Except she is? Merril is a character that lacks common sense to a near unrealistic level. So if their intention was to show her as a smart bloodmage, they failed the second she starts rambling and acting like a ditz.


We see Merrill demonstrate intelligence numerous times, from her religious discussions with Anders to her handling of magic. She's an intelligent and proactive character dealing with culture shock.

#1133
IanPolaris

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The Hierophant wrote...

Nearly the majority of the mages who summoned a demon or demons were possessed regardless of their skill/experience. That's the reason i mentioned Uldred as he's a senior enchanter class mage (Irving's go to guy) who was still possessed. Using Feynriel's situation during "Night Terrors" as an excuse to dumb down my point about the influence of demons when there's other examples littered in the series is not a counter to my point.


The game doesn't support that actually.  We know that Wilhelm of Honnleth summoned a demon and he didn't get possessed.  We know that Arvernus was even more reckless than Uldred and he didn't get possessed.  Right there that two to your one.

That isn't to say that summoning demons isn't dangerous (it very much is) or doesn't put you at risk (it clearly does), but it doesn't seem to automatically turn you into an abomination.

Oh one more.  Gascard (the noble in DA2) also could summon demons and he wasn't possessed.

-Polaris

#1134
LobselVith8

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The Hierophant wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Nope.  Just redid that scene a bit agao.  Nial clearly uses the plural when talking about Uldred summoning demons.  Uldred (per Niall) summoned more than one.


My game is uninstalled can you post a link or the dialogue directly as i can't find a video where the player highlights that specific dialogue?


The place with uploaded videos would be your best bet. From what I recall from Niall's account, Uldred seemed to have summoned more demons than he could control, and became possessed.

#1135
The Hierophant

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IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Nearly the majority of the mages who summoned a demon or demons were possessed regardless of their skill/experience. That's the reason i mentioned Uldred as he's a senior enchanter class mage (Irving's go to guy) who was still possessed. Using Feynriel's situation during "Night Terrors" as an excuse to dumb down my point about the influence of demons when there's other examples littered in the series is not a counter to my point.


The game doesn't support that actually.  We know that Wilhelm of Honnleth summoned a demon and he didn't get possessed.  We know that Arvernus was even more reckless than Uldred and he didn't get possessed.  Right there that two to your one.

That isn't to say that summoning demons isn't dangerous (it very much is) or doesn't put you at risk (it clearly does), but it doesn't seem to automatically turn you into an abomination.

Oh one more.  Gascard (the noble in DA2) also could summon demons and he wasn't possessed.

-Polaris

Oops i forgot about Gascard's shades/wraiths, then Avernus who despite losing control was able to escape, in contrast to Grace who became possessed after summoning them at an unknown point during act 3. (I don't know what happened with Tahrohne and that Desire Demon.)

#1136
The Hierophant

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LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Nope.  Just redid that scene a bit agao.  Nial clearly uses the plural when talking about Uldred summoning demons.  Uldred (per Niall) summoned more than one.


My game is uninstalled can you post a link or the dialogue directly as i can't find a video where the player highlights that specific dialogue?


The place with uploaded videos would be your best bet. From what I recall from Niall's account, Uldred seemed to have summoned more demons than he could control, and became possessed.

Thanks for the info.

#1137
Qyla

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Lady Mortho wrote...

Well personaly I'm an evil blood mage who wants all mages to rule over the lesser creatures. I'd use the good mages to fight back then kill all of them except the evil ones >;D


Declaring those intention out loud would make you a poor evil chara

#1138
BlueMagitek

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LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Oh goody, a Merrill discussion.

She's intelligent, but made WIS her dump stat, if you know what I mean.

Some people seem to call Merrill stupid because she makes decisions that they disagree with, which is utterly ridiculous - especially when the protagonist is a human who is completely ignorant about elven culture and the Eluvian.

BlueMagitek wrote...
As for Bethany, she is literally the sanest, kindest mage in DA:2. I'm only sorry I can't have both her and Carver (or at least have more time with both).


That would have been interesting.


Well, Merrill is an exiled member of a band of racist raiders who is completely ignorant about human culture and has the brilliant idea of working on an ancient, tainted magical artifact which she has some idea about in the middle of a crowded city.  With blood magic in one of the worst places in Thedas for a mage to be while surrounded by Templar.

Which, no matter how you dice it, is the dullest knife to be found in the kitchen.

Yes, I would have gladly traded out Merrill or Isabella for either of them.

#1139
G-S-Robot

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Honestly I'm rather on the fence about the fight between Mages and Templars. They both have valid opinions however I disagree with how they have gone about proving their point. Mages are rebelling with Blood Magic, Templars are shortening the leash as much as possible before flat out sending them to the chopping block. In Inquisition I hope there is a newutral option where everyone wins. Ya know?

#1140
IanPolaris

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The Hierophant wrote...

Oops i forgot about Gascard's shades/wraiths, then Avernus who despite losing control was able to escape, in contrast to Grace who became possessed after summoning them at an unknown point during act 3. (I don't know what happened with Tahrohne and that Desire Demon.)


We don't know how Grace and presumeably Tahrohne became possessed.  They may have chosen it (they were both nutty enough).  Certainly we don't know it was the result of any demon summoning by either.

-Polaris

#1141
BlueMagitek

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G-S-Robot wrote...

Honestly I'm rather on the fence about the fight between Mages and Templars. They both have valid opinions however I disagree with how they have gone about proving their point. Mages are rebelling with Blood Magic, Templars are shortening the leash as much as possible before flat out sending them to the chopping block. In Inquisition I hope there is a newutral option where everyone wins. Ya know?


Yes, I understand, and this is primarily my position as well, though I've fallen off the fence.

The "neutral" option would probably be to cull the mage and templar, while restoring the Circle system in some, more liberal form.

#1142
IceHawk-181

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BlueMagitek wrote...

G-S-Robot wrote...

Honestly I'm rather on the fence about the fight between Mages and Templars. They both have valid opinions however I disagree with how they have gone about proving their point. Mages are rebelling with Blood Magic, Templars are shortening the leash as much as possible before flat out sending them to the chopping block. In Inquisition I hope there is a newutral option where everyone wins. Ya know?


Yes, I understand, and this is primarily my position as well, though I've fallen off the fence.

The "neutral" option would probably be to cull the mage and templar, while restoring the Circle system in some, more liberal form.



Agreed.
 

#1143
G-S-Robot

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BlueMagitek wrote...

G-S-Robot wrote...

Honestly I'm rather on the fence about the fight between Mages and Templars. They both have valid opinions however I disagree with how they have gone about proving their point. Mages are rebelling with Blood Magic, Templars are shortening the leash as much as possible before flat out sending them to the chopping block. In Inquisition I hope there is a newutral option where everyone wins. Ya know?


Yes, I understand, and this is primarily my position as well, though I've fallen off the fence.

The "neutral" option would probably be to cull the mage and templar, while restoring the Circle system in some, more liberal form.

Essentially restore the way it used to be yeah? Maybe a modification or two to the system but yeah I could see that. I'll just hang out here on the fence before actually playing. But if I were to lean one way or the other, I might sympathise with the mages like I did through most of DA2.

#1144
Sable Rhapsody

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G-S-Robot wrote...
Essentially restore the way it used to be yeah? Maybe a modification or two to the system but yeah I could see that. I'll just hang out here on the fence before actually playing. But if I were to lean one way or the other, I might sympathise with the mages like I did through most of DA2.


I don't think restoring the Circle system is going to work, and here's why in a nutshell.

The Circle system was designed by the Chantry shortly after the Andrastian faith rose to dominance.  Fear and hatred of mages was essentially in that faith from day one; how could it not have been, when Andraste's followers began by fighting Tevinter's magisters?  Consciously or otherwise, the Circle system turns mages into monsters by treating them like monsters.  

I say if the whole thing's crumbled by the time of DA:I anyway, it'd be nice to start from scratch.  Find a new system that protects mages from demons and the populace from possessed or malevolent mages without assuming that every mage is going to become some kind of slavering monstrosity. 

#1145
Bekkael

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:huh:

That's what multiple PCs and playthroughs are for, so you can side with everyone and experience different points-of-view.

#1146
Volus Warlord

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I really don't see how people love the mages so much. All they are is a bunch of ticking time bombs waiting to kill a bunch of people that whine like heck about people keeping tabs on them to make sure they don't do so.

#1147
lil yonce

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One thing that will be interesting to see addressed in this conflict is the impact of the fade tears-- the mages at Andoral's Reach possibly becoming beacons for the demons pouring into Thedas. There may be no choice but for mages to fight their own kind who become possessed abominations with templars. Their numbers would dwindle and the course of the conflict could drastically change.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 26 juin 2013 - 10:34 .


#1148
dragonflight288

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BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Oh goody, a Merrill discussion.

She's intelligent, but made WIS her dump stat, if you know what I mean.

Some people seem to call Merrill stupid because she makes decisions that they disagree with, which is utterly ridiculous - especially when the protagonist is a human who is completely ignorant about elven culture and the Eluvian.

BlueMagitek wrote...
As for Bethany, she is literally the sanest, kindest mage in DA:2. I'm only sorry I can't have both her and Carver (or at least have more time with both).


That would have been interesting.


Well, Merrill is an exiled member of a band of racist raiders-


Stop right there. Until you can show me an example of the Dalish as a culture going on raids, then they are not raiders. I'm nitpicking here but I have only seen examples of individual dalish going against the word of their keepers on quests for revenge, or the Dalish defend themselves from human bandits and raiders. Neither of which makes the Dalish raiders.

Being Dalish doesn't autimatically make one a raider if the Dalish culture can't be shown as raiders. Scavengers and nomads, most certainly, ostracized by most of society, of course, hunted by templars because of their free mages, obviously. But organizing raids on human settlements regularly to survive or gather supplies? Killing indiscrimintely for the love of it? I don't see that at all.

-who is completely ignorant about human culture and has the brilliant idea of working on an ancient, tainted magical artifact which she has some idea about in the middle of a crowded city.


She cured it of the taint, and had done so before even arriving in Kirkwall. It was only dangerous in that it was misunderstood, but it was broken and powerless.

Ancient Tevinter, when they had the eluvians, and with all their power at their disposal, were only able to create fancy magical telephones.

 

With blood magic in one of the worst places in Thedas for a mage to be while surrounded by Templar.


Again, she didn't cure it in Kirkwall. She cleansed it of the taint before she even met Hawke. And she deliberately went to the alienage to blend in with other elves, so she would only be a face in the crowd. She didn't control the arrival at Kirkwall, Merethari went there to meet Hawke as a favor to Flemeth, but once there, Merrill and Merethari had a falling out and Merrill chose of her own volition to leave the clan, and Kirkwall was the only place she could go.

So she deliberately chose the one place she could blend in, and said she never used magic in public, so to everyone, she was only another city-elf. That's pretty clever when given limited options.

Which, no matter how you dice it, is the dullest knife to be found in the kitchen.

Yes, I would have gladly traded out Merrill or Isabella for either of them.


And yet I was able to point out how she was smart about the whole situation. And the fact that she went up until Act 3 without being discovered, and even then it's a little iffy about whether the templars knew if she was a mage or not, as they never came for her.

I say that although she was suffering cultural shock, there is enough in-game evidence to support her intelligence and resourcefulness. Which she has plenty of.

#1149
Sable Rhapsody

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Bekkael wrote...
:huh:

That's what multiple PCs and playthroughs are for, so you can side with everyone and experience different points-of-view.


And yet for some, the very idea of siding with the mages or the templars is nauseating :D

I can sympathize to some degree.  I had playthroughs of DA:O and DA2 with PCs who skewed more pro-templar and PCs who skewed pro-mage.  I could try just about everything, but I could not get myself to side with Meredith at the end of DA2.  Her bloodthirstiness was just too off putting by then.

#1150
DKJaigen

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Youth4Ever wrote...

One thing that will be interesting to see addressed in this conflict is the impact of the fade tears-- the mages at Andoral's Reach possibly becoming beacons for the demons pouring into Thedas. There may be no choice but for mages to fight their own kind who become possessed abominations with templars. Their numbers would dwindle and the course of the conflict could drastically change.


One of the main reasons why mages are locked up in their circle is because they are portals to into the mortal world. With the fade tears they no longer need those mages and demons are just as happy to possess mundanes. Right now mundanes right now are far more vunrable to possesion (lock the mundanes up lol) then mages are because they lack traning or knowledge to defeat the demons.

So your scenario has some merit. But more likely that the templars will hve to massacre mundanes