1799 réponses à ce sujet

[vpacheco1984]

Mages. Mostly because I'm a pro-mage but also because if the templars win the current circle system will seem like a day at the spa compared to what the templars would do to punish the mages for rebelling in the first place.

[Ausstig]

fiveforchaos wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

In a pub about a mile down the road with all the sensible people.

You have the same icon and the same philosophy as me.

Clearly it is destiny that you join Varric and me on our journey to the deep roads to seek our fortune. 

Well ok.

But only if we can sing "Over the Misty Mountains Cold"

[TK514]

Pro-Compromise and Reform.

I think the Rivain Circle would have been a good starting template. Mages quarantined from the general populace, but not forcibly kept from families and loved ones. I believe that Circles should exist alongside communities composed of Mage families, should the family wish to remain together. I think it would be an interesting intellectual challenge to try to develop a system that allowed a random influx of tradespeople to set up a workable economy. You might have to set up a system of trade schools alongside the Circle system to balance out he availability of necessary craftsmen. Hmm.

might have to return to that later...

in any case, this would not preclude the necessity of a Templar-esque anti-Mage/Demon/Abomination force, but there would have to be stricter oversight and stronger sanctions to prevent abuses.

Modifié par TK514, 10 juin 2013 - 06:19 .

[Fuggyt]

IanPolaris wrote...

I stand on the side of sanity. It is not sensible to treat an entire group of people like non-humans and expect such a system to end well. On the other hand it is not sensible to ignore the dangers that mages and magic allow for, especially when untrained. What's more, it's illogical to place the care and maintenance of an entire group of people into another group that institutionally fears and despises them.

So,

1. I am for the abolition of the circle system as it stands (and it's currently a moot point since it has ended anyway). I would have been for gradual reform but that isn't in the cards.

2. I am for a comphensive agreement with all the major party of Thedas regarding natural/human rights *including* the rights of mages.

3. I am for the mandatory education of all mages and those with magical talent as well as specialized enforcement of magical crimes and specialized treatment of magical criminals. In this sense I don't oppose the *idea* (the original idea) of the Templars at all. Such an organization (likely an order of knighthood) should be composed and and get input from both mundanes and mages, and should be required to have both mundane and mage membership (and mundane members could and should be taught Templar-like Talents).

4. Such an enforcement arm should be absolutely secular (as in not in the control of the Chantry or any Thedas religion). This arm should be either indepedant much like the Grey Wardens (but if so, it should depend and promise to work closely with the secular rulers of Thecas while promising never to get involved in polics), or it should be subordinate to the secular leaders.

My take fwiw.

-Polaris

I like this.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the PC in the next game is an agent of just such a newly formed enforcement arm.  It would give the PC a rank and authority they enjoyed in DAO and lacked in DA2. 

As far as the templar-mage war, did it ever occur to anybody that the mage threat is exaggerated?  There's kind of an inherent contradiction in the lore.  To whit:  either the mages are numerous or powerful enough to resist the Templars or they are not.  If they are, then the Templars could never have imprisoned them all in the Circles in the first place (nor, for that matter, would the Tevinter Imperium ever have fallen).  If they are not, then the Chantry and the Circles are the repressive products of paranoia, superstition, and hysteria, and Anders's futile act of terrorism can only lead to the genocide of mages everywhere. 

Unless, of course, Sandal's prophecy comes true.  Then all bets are off.

Modifié par Fuggyt, 10 juin 2013 - 06:31 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Um yeah.  Gotta agree with you here.  This is pure:

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

(Kill'em all.  God will know his own)

Supposedly said by the Papal Legate in charge of the Massacre at Benzeir during the Albigensian Crusade.

-Polaris

A modern myth.
There isn't a single written piece of evidence that was ever said by anyone.



****

Such an enforcement arm should be absolutely secular.

Meh...
A compeltely unnecessary requirement.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

I am going to annihilate the mages.

And elves too, disgusting traitorous scums.

Modifié par Chaos Lord Malek, 10 juin 2013 - 07:01 .

[Moirin]

IanPolaris wrote...

I stand on the side of sanity. It is not sensible to treat an entire group of people like non-humans and expect such a system to end well. On the other hand it is not sensible to ignore the dangers that mages and magic allow for, especially when untrained. What's more, it's illogical to place the care and maintenance of an entire group of people into another group that institutionally fears and despises them.

So,

1. I am for the abolition of the circle system as it stands (and it's currently a moot point since it has ended anyway). I would have been for gradual reform but that isn't in the cards.

2. I am for a comphensive agreement with all the major party of Thedas regarding natural/human rights *including* the rights of mages.

3. I am for the mandatory education of all mages and those with magical talent as well as specialized enforcement of magical crimes and specialized treatment of magical criminals. In this sense I don't oppose the *idea* (the original idea) of the Templars at all. Such an organization (likely an order of knighthood) should be composed and and get input from both mundanes and mages, and should be required to have both mundane and mage membership (and mundane members could and should be taught Templar-like Talents).

4. Such an enforcement arm should be absolutely secular (as in not in the control of the Chantry or any Thedas religion). This arm should be either indepedant much like the Grey Wardens (but if so, it should depend and promise to work closely with the secular rulers of Thecas while promising never to get involved in polics), or it should be subordinate to the secular leaders.

My take fwiw.

-Polaris

This! If something similar to this isn't a choice (or at least some sort of compromise) then I guess I'll side with the mages. But I like this best!

Modifié par Spiralbutterfly, 10 juin 2013 - 07:02 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Fuggyt wrote...

As far as the templar-mage war, did it ever occur to anybody that the mage threat is exaggerated?  There's kind of an inherent contradiction in the lore.  To whit:  either the mages are numerous or powerful enough to resist the Templars or they are not.  If they are, then the Templars could never have imprisoned them all in the Circles in the first place (nor, for that matter, would the Tevinter Imperium ever have fallen).  If they are not, then the Chantry and the Circles are the repressive products of paranoia, superstition, and hysteria, and Anders's futile act of terrorism can only lead to the genocide of mages everywhere. 

I'd say that "either this OR this" is not correct.

1. The mages agreed to the Circles and entered willingly. Tempalrs didn't hunt all of them down.

2. Tevinter had to deal with a blight, famine AND a massive slave rebellion.

3. Mages are powerfull, but there are very few of them.

4. Templars are specialized mage-hunters, and thus far more effective than regular soldiers

[KainD]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

I am going to annihilate the mages.

And elves too, disgusting traitorous scums.

For the Emperor! 

[Lotion Soronarr]

I hope for multiple endings - but no perfect ending. You can sorta get the resutl you want (free mages or templar victory), but it's not the happy, everything turns out great ending.

Templar victory - two possiblities. Either the circles become even more strict, or they become more lenient. Otherwise, things continue as they were.

Mage victory - far more possibilitites for a mage victory.
I definately forsee a split among the mages as to how to handle their newfound freedom. One (more reasonable) group would probably want something similar to Circles, but more rebellious ones that got a taste of freedom wouldn't want any compromises at all.
So you'd end up with mages fighting mages, or two groups going their separate ways.
Of course, the power vacuum, the rampant abuse of magic and all the other associated problems would plague TheDas, so no sunshine and happines ending here either.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
4. Templars are specialized mage-hunters, and thus far more effective than regular soldiers

The lore doesn't agree with you.  At best, Templars are as good as your normal heavy infantry.  At best.  They only excell at dealing with mages and fade-based creatures, and even then have difficulties with bloodmages which is one sort of magic templars apparently can not block.

-Polaris

[Fredward]

Mages. With some restrictions. Which I am not typing again. I will go insane.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

I stand on the side of sanity. It is not sensible to treat an entire group of people like non-humans and expect such a system to end well. On the other hand it is not sensible to ignore the dangers that mages and magic allow for, especially when untrained. What's more, it's illogical to place the care and maintenance of an entire group of people into another group that institutionally fears and despises them.

Incorrect.

[Chanda]

Aren't there enough threads about the Templar/Mage conflict? It's not like they got locked, or anything. This is just going to turn into another spiteful flame war.

[The Spirit of Dance]

Death to all mages!

[Chanda]

supremebloodwolf wrote...

Death to all mages!

See?

[Fredward]

Chanda wrote...

Aren't there enough threads about the Templar/Mage conflict? It's not like they got locked, or anything. This is just going to turn into another spiteful flame war.

WELCOME TO THE BSN!

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
4. Templars are specialized mage-hunters, and thus far more effective than regular soldiers

The lore doesn't agree with you.  At best, Templars are as good as your normal heavy infantry.  At best.  They only excell at dealing with mages and fade-based creatures, and even then have difficulties with bloodmages which is one sort of magic templars apparently can not block.

-Polaris

Far more effective agaisnt MAGES. Yes. I thought it was obvious it was what I implied.

And speaking of blood magic - don't templars get increased mental resistance? I never got the impression templars can't block/fight blood magic- more that blood magic is overcharged and thus more difficult to block.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And speaking of blood magic - don't templars get increased mental resistance? I never got the impression templars can't block/fight blood magic- more that blood magic is overcharged and thus more difficult to block.

Very small amounts of mental resistance at first, probably tied to what they're taught and a larger bit certainly to how devoted they are to the job. If they focus on their duty, then it helps their mental strength.

Obviously of course, devotion should not become obsession. Devotion allows one to see how to act and how not to.

And Cullen's mental resistance, for instance, seems to be a rather atypical (but extraordinary) display -- in terms of capabilities, not devotion/obsession. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 juin 2013 - 08:17 .

[Chanda]

And by the way, how do you pronounce your name? I've been pronouncing it "Low-shun". Is that correct?

[BadJustice]

I hope there will be more options that just picking either then Templar or Mages to win because I'm sought of a middle man.

[billy the squid]

Extermination if necessary, Mages need to be leashed and brought to heel again.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chanda wrote...

And by the way, how do you pronounce your name? I've been pronouncing it "Low-shun". Is that correct?

Actually, the name misses some markings, since it's derived from Lote (o with an umlaut), so it's kinda iffy to pronounce.

Something like procyion: lo (as in "lo and behold") ti (as in "tea") on

[Chanda]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chanda wrote...

And by the way, how do you pronounce your name? I've been pronouncing it "Low-shun". Is that correct?

Actually, the name misses some markings, since it's derived from Lote (o with an umlaut), so it's kinda iffy to pronounce.

Something like procyion: lo (as in "lo and behold") ti (as in "tea") on

Thanks. Now I can read  your name properly.

[Newschmoo]

TK514 wrote...

Pro-Compromise and Reform.

I think the Rivain Circle would have been a good starting template. Mages quarantined from the general populace, but not forcibly kept from families and loved ones. I believe that Circles should exist alongside communities composed of Mage families, should the family wish to remain together. I think it would be an interesting intellectual challenge to try to develop a system that allowed a random influx of tradespeople to set up a workable economy. You might have to set up a system of trade schools alongside the Circle system to balance out he availability of necessary craftsmen. Hmm.

might have to return to that later...

in any case, this would not preclude the necessity of a Templar-esque anti-Mage/Demon/Abomination force, but there would have to be stricter oversight and stronger sanctions to prevent abuses.

I liked the sound of the set up in Dairsmuid ^^. It was a big shame it was annulled (it seemed so pointless). It could have been used as a basis for change in the set up of the circles.

I believe that mages still need to have training/education to use their magic responsibly (and not to abuse it), but not under such oppressive conditions and with a bit more freedom.  

I agree there will always be a role for the templars (and there are good decent templars out there), to stop those who abuse magic (the minority) but to protect the mages too.

I terms of taking sides in the mage v templar war, I am not sure this will be clear cut. My thoughts are what if there are two templar factions - those loyal to Lambert and those loyal to the Divine?

Those loyal to Lambert will most probably have an anti-mage stance.  However the Divine Justinia seemed like she was aiming for change. Thus there may be two sets of templars with different ideals.