1799 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

TheKomanderShephard wrote...*snip*

Nothing that was stated is a counter to my point. You're comparing irl crime rate probabilities of the mentally ill, and irl mordern society's capabiblity at mitigating/countering/responding to violence to fictional human beings who are prone to being manually controlled by spirits, while being able to bend the laws of reality, and their society lacking a system to safeguard the the general public from the threats outside of containment.
Plus the circumstances regarding both Gulf Wars is incomparable to DA's Templar & Mage conflict.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 29 juin 2013 - 08:49 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

The Hierophant wrote...

TheKomanderShephard wrote...
*snip*

Nothing that was stated is a counter to my point. Your comparing irl crime rate probabilities of the mentally ill, and irl mordern society's capabiblity at mitigating/countering/responding to violence to fictional beings who are prone to being manually controlled by spirits, while being able to bend the laws of reality, and lacking a system to safeguard the the general public from the threats outside of containment.

Plus the circumstances regarding both Gulf Wars is incomparable to DA's Templar & Mage conflict.

Ehhh so what they are controlled by spirts so they are acting like mad peoples or evil ,bend law of reality thats what primitive peoples think about science like flying huge explosion from little box that  system doesn't mean that can't be created if everyone think like you we are be still in Middle Ages because everyone would think that science is dangerous and can't be controled with common security system and bends law of reality ... Even one charismatic human can create army by philosophy or religion and do much more harm than any mage could.Look at your chantry and judge how much harm they create by racism and fear.   

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 29 juin 2013 - 09:02 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

vpacheco1984 wrote...
Funny how you say Zeal is a good thing yet don't give an example. Also the Chantry as it is now is bad and the Circle is slavery. Even in the lore with in DA along with several characters say that Mages are PORPERTY of the Chantry.

Do I have to? Do you even know what zeal means?



ZEAL
noun
fervor for a person, cause, or object; eager desire or endeavor; ardor.


Fighting for freedom, human rights or anything  for that matter cna be done with zeal.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 29 juin 2013 - 09:38 .

[vpacheco1984]

You need to repost your definition it got messed up.

[Lotion Soronarr]

@KomandorShepard

.....

There aren't enough facepalms in this world....

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

@KomandorShepard

.....

There aren't enough facepalms in this world....

for somone who claims that law should be followed no matter what and no matter what laws says.
judge dredd is that rly you?

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 29 juin 2013 - 09:44 .

[vpacheco1984]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...
Funny how you say Zeal is a good thing yet don't give an example. Also the Chantry as it is now is bad and the Circle is slavery. Even in the lore with in DA along with several characters say that Mages are PORPERTY of the Chantry.

Do I have to? Do you even know what zeal means?



ZEAL
noun
fervor for a person, cause, or object; eager desire or endeavor; ardor.


Fighting for freedom, human rights or anything  for that matter cna be done with zeal.

*Slow clap* You gave a good reason for zeal. Good for you. Oh and you do realize you just layed out what the whole mage rebellion is about right.:innocent:

Modifié par vpacheco1984, 29 juin 2013 - 09:45 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

@KomandorShepard

.....

There aren't enough facepalms in this world....

for somone who claims that law should be followed no matter what and no matter what laws says.
judge dredd is that rly you?

I didn't claim that.
However, it's obvious your grasp of english language is poor, so I'll let that slide.

[vpacheco1984]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

@KomandorShepard

.....

There aren't enough facepalms in this world....

for somone who claims that law should be followed no matter what and no matter what laws says.
judge dredd is that rly you?

I didn't claim that.
However, it's obvious your grasp of english language is poor, so I'll let that slide.

You should really change your name to Backpeddle. Becasue you did claim that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

You should really change your name to "blind man on shroom who cannot read and halluciantes."

Because I didn't. Learn to read.

Just because I point out the existance of different laws and instances where humans and nations have acted exactly contrary to what the two of your claim, that doesn't mean I endorse everything.

Your arguments are crap. Your logic is broken.
No wonder both of you can't do anything else but to deliberately misread and nitpick.

I mean seriously..
That non-mage is a dangerous as a mage? Once I see those kinds of "arguments" pop up, there is no discussion to be had, because reason has left the building, got on a rocket and then left the galaxy

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

@KomandorShepard

.....

There aren't enough facepalms in this world....

for somone who claims that law should be followed no matter what and no matter what laws says.
judge dredd is that rly you?

I didn't claim that.
However, it's obvious your grasp of english language is poor, so I'll let that slide.

"They follow the law.
And they would arrest you if the law said they should. And in some countries the laws are such."
Also i read your previous comments from others topics when you you justify templars killing mages because mages have broken their law no matter how ridiculous and now try to say that if somone arest you because law say that should everything is perfect.I read that betwen you saying that addicting peoples is not evil as long they do that for some psychofanatical religious organisation with free brainwashing but that ok because self-sacrifice yeah talibans are heros too they are not evil they just sacrifice themselves thanks for opening my eyes. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 29 juin 2013 - 10:52 .

[garrusfan1]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

vpacheco1984 wrote...

Leliana: Hates mages and wanted the Exlated March on Kirkwall to kill the mages and hated the fact they were allowed to have fraternities.

Cassandra: She hates mages and wants them all dead or in chains.

Talis: She like all Qunari see mages as animals who need to be collard with their eyes and mouths stitched shut.

Bethany: The mage who hates herself and other mages who believes that it's okay for the mages to be enslaved tortured, raped and beaten on a daily basis.

Evangeline: She is just as bad as Leliana, Cassandra and Talis and would be more then happy to kill all the mages and drop them in mass unmarked graves.

with the exception of tallis and Evangeline I know you are wrong
Leliana took mages out of prison which made the Templars rebel. leliana also didn't hate morrigan for being a mage but for other reasons and she loved wynne. Cassandra didn't seem to be so bad from what I saw she seemed to want  peace. and how the f*** do you get that for Bethany she hated the fact her family had to sacrifice so much and she hated the Templars and thought the circle was horrible. she doesn't believe mages should be kept locked up . if your talking about how she didn't flee the circle or complain about it in the dlcs when you took her along it is more of she was tired of running and worrying about Templars coming through the doors at any time. Bethany even said to fenris there shouldn't be Templars in one of their talks while your walking places. Bethany even said (before the final battle and if she was in the circle) she needs to help her fellow mages. just because she isn't hardcore like anders doesn't mean she hates mages. and I will repeat the fact she only hated her magic because her family had to sacrifice so much to keep her from the circle

Leliana liked Wynne because she is a loyalist, a sniveling belly scraper, in every way but name. She did hate Morrigan for being a mage as well as for being outside the Circle and she didn't kiss Leliana's ass the way Wynne did. Don't forget about the Sebastian DLC in the 3rd act when you go to the keep to speak with the agent of the Divine she says the mages are lucky to be allowed to have their farternities. Making it sound like giving the mages even that much was more then the mages deserved.

Cassandra she did hate mages and I'm pretty sure that her idea of peace is the mages either being dead or back in the circle living in even harsher conditions. You did listen to when she said the word mage right, she spit it out like it was a curse, like the word itself left a bad taste in her mouth.

Bethany did hate herself and other mages. I get this not only from the fact that she turned herself in to the Circle, spiting in her families face, she even says she like the circle only someone who hates themselve could like living in a such an abusive enviorment, they would have to believe they and other like them deserved that abuse. I never heard her ever say she hated templars. So what if she was in the Circle and said she need to help her fellow mages maybe she was actually able to get past that self-hatrad is she maybe liked a mage or most likely she wanted to help the templars in their slaughter of the mages. If she was in the Wardens she screaming for the annulment and wanting to kill all of the mages down to the last man, woman, and child.

I had a whole response for this typed out but it got erased somehow. so I will just say you are either trolling or you didn't play DA2 or DAO for that matter

[vpacheco1984]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You should really change your name to "blind man on shroom who cannot read and halluciantes."

Because I didn't. Learn to read.

Just because I point out the existance of different laws and instances where humans and nations have acted exactly contrary to what the two of your claim, that doesn't mean I endorse everything.

Your arguments are crap. Your logic is broken.
No wonder both of you can't do anything else but to deliberately misread and nitpick.

I mean seriously..
That non-mage is a dangerous as a mage? Once I see those kinds of "arguments" pop up, there is no discussion to be had, because reason has left the building, got on a rocket and then left the galaxy

Wow. Really? I can read just fine but you have learn to write and express you thoughs better. Also you're the one with the broken logic since you seem to think that as long as the law says so then it is okay. If you didn't think that then you should state that. But you didn't you made it sound like you approved that some countries have laws that make it perfectly leagel for the law enforcement to grab anyone and hold them without due prosesse.

As for you using people with a mental illness or a communicable diesea being segrated from the rest of the population is true but you forgot to mention once they are helped, be it taking the proper med or have been cured of their illness are released and allowed to go back to their lives not locked away for the rest of their lives, except in rare cases where there is no treatment for their illness mental or physical. Broken logic again.

Also don't say we deliberatly misread and nitpick. But if we do then so do you. More broken logic.

I don't think either of said that non-mages are as dangerous as mages. Though some can be it's rare take Fenris for instance he can be as dangerous as a mage, Templars as well. Spirit warriors could propbably be put into this catigory as well. The fact you refuse to see that non-mages can be dangerous or that they are somehow more sanitly while mages are evil given form is "reason leaving the building, got on a rocket and then left the galazy".  Once again broken logic.

[garrusfan1]

Morocco Mole wrote...

If trolling, it's a pretty good imitation of your crazy pro-mager

you talking to me. if so I may be very pro mage but I am not blind like the one guy who I said was trolling is he just seems to be making stuff up in the post I commented on.

[Hellion Rex]

 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You should really change your name to "blind man on shroom who cannot read and halluciantes."
Because I didn't. Learn to read.
Just because I point out the existance of different laws and instances where humans and nations have acted exactly contrary to what the two of your claim, that doesn't mean I endorse everything.
Your arguments are crap. Your logic is broken. No wonder both of you can't do anything else but to deliberately misread and nitpick.
I mean seriously.. That non-mage is a dangerous as a mage? Once I see those kinds of "arguments" pop up, there is no discussion to be had, because reason has left the building, got on a rocket and then left the galaxy

Pot and kettle man. The only reason mages  can be dangerous is because of what might be, not always what is. So it's fair to condemn and kill them just because of a possibility?

[garrusfan1]

eluvianix wrote...

 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You should really change your name to "blind man on shroom who cannot read and halluciantes."
Because I didn't. Learn to read.
Just because I point out the existance of different laws and instances where humans and nations have acted exactly contrary to what the two of your claim, that doesn't mean I endorse everything.
Your arguments are crap. Your logic is broken. No wonder both of you can't do anything else but to deliberately misread and nitpick.
I mean seriously.. That non-mage is a dangerous as a mage? Once I see those kinds of "arguments" pop up, there is no discussion to be had, because reason has left the building, got on a rocket and then left the galaxy

Pot and kettle man. The only reason mages  can be dangerous is because of what might be, not always what is. So it's fair to condemn and kill them just because of a possibility?

its okay to punish a minority for what they might do didn't you know. it happens in many great countries where they imprison a group of people and take away all rights because they might rebel or something. even though only 1% are like that punish them all and when they turn to evil means because they are treated so horribly and then use that to say they are all evil

[vpacheco1984]

Morocco Mole wrote...

If trolling, it's a pretty good imitation of your crazy pro-mager

So the only way for someone to be pro-mage they have to crazy when most of us are dicussing ways to create a way for people to live equally elves, humans, dwarves and mages. While Pro-templars to say to keep the status-quo, Totalitarianis, slavery and keeping elves in the alienages. Funny how we are the crazy ones we want actuall change. 

[MisterJB]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

MisterJB mages are humans some want rule others want just live with family others want travel around world.You assume that mages are all evil because they want dominate others with evil ruler yes with good ruler not as empress in orlais have absolute power and treat villagers and citizens like trashes which can be killed or raped and only nobility have power , Ferelden treating them much better and they are free even woman from orlais says that in orgins.You can enslave peoples whitout magic orlais is best example and not always power means tyrany.

You asume that mages must be leaders why some can be others can be medics others merchants as others non mages. 

Nah, that's not my point at all.

It's true that chevaliers and the like can be quite dreadful despite not being mages and that there are likely mages who got no interest in ruling. But, everyone has an interest in improving their living conditions and people use their skills to accomplish this.
There is nothing wrong with that, of course; it's, in fact, what makes the world spin. But it just so happens mages are just that much more skillful than non-mages; their abilities are just exceptionally useful and while this might sound great at first because that means it can be used for the good of society, one must also realize that life is a competition and that those who can't do so are left behind.
Forget about slavery or mages wielding whips for a second and focus instead on economy. Money is power, plain and simple. Given its useful nature, magic will, inevitably, take over the infrastructure; picture, if you will, cars and plains and electricity and medical machines all moving with the power of magic.
Now where does this leaves the people who can't do magic. At the bottom, that's where.

And that is my point, not that mages are all evil and all want to rule but that non-mages simply can't compete with mages and that this will lead to them being second class citizens even if the mages don't mean to. The fact that every society where mages are given greater freedoms eventually has them as the leaders supports this conjecture.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Felicia Day did confer with the writers about the lore for Dragon Age.

Still no source. And I would very much like to know Miss Day's source because everything about elven culture points in the opposite direction.
The simple fact that they hold that all elves were mages once and that they wish to return to this, logically, means that they see mage elves as closer to that ideal than non-mages.

The origin of the Dalish Warden demonstrates that the elders had the authority to refuse a Keeper - i.e. non- mages saying 'no' to a mage.

No, they were saying no to the she-elf of their own clan. If anyone said anything to the Dalish Warden's father, was the other Keeper.
If that Keeper had said "yes", the elders could say whatever they wish but they could do nothing about it because the will of the Keeper is supreme as evidence by Marethari, for instance.

The Rivain codex simply mentioned that they were revered, not leaders. And I thought the seers were in the Circle of Rivain, per the Annulment of Rivain entry?

And the World of Thedas says they are leaders and it was written with the specific purpose of providing information about Thedosian lore.

Magisters belong to a Circle, that doesn't stop them from having political power.

The problem is they aren't Tevinter. You seem to forget there isn't a democracy in Thedas; every society or nation has rulers. Why don't you take issue with the 'nobility' ruling over everyone else? The Dalish also demonstrate that the Keepers aren't despots or tyrants, as Velanna and Merrill are free to leave their clan to pursue their own path.

My answer is the same pro-mages give when questioned why don't we fight Tevinter. One problem at a time.
I'm not fond of feudalism in the least but, as our own world proves, it can be defeated.

I mean, right now you're not even denying that mages take over every society they live in. You're just saying "It's not so bad."

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

MisterJB mages are humans some want rule others want just live with family others want travel around world.You assume that mages are all evil because they want dominate others with evil ruler yes with good ruler not as empress in orlais have absolute power and treat villagers and citizens like trashes which can be killed or raped and only nobility have power , Ferelden treating them much better and they are free even woman from orlais says that in orgins.You can enslave peoples whitout magic orlais is best example and not always power means tyrany.

You asume that mages must be leaders why some can be others can be medics others merchants as others non mages. 

Nah, that's not my point at all.

It's true that chevaliers and the like can be quite dreadful despite not being mages and that there are likely mages who got no interest in ruling. But, everyone has an interest in improving their living conditions and people use their skills to accomplish this.
There is nothing wrong with that, of course; it's, in fact, what makes the world spin. But it just so happens mages are just that much more skillful than non-mages; their abilities are just exceptionally useful and while this might sound great at first because that means it can be used for the good of society, one must also realize that life is a competition and that those who can't do so are left behind.
Forget about slavery or mages wielding whips for a second and focus instead on economy. Money is power, plain and simple. Given its useful nature, magic will, inevitably, take over the infrastructure; picture, if you will, cars and plains and electricity and medical machines all moving with the power of magic.
Now where does this leaves the people who can't do magic. At the bottom, that's where.

And that is my point, not that mages are all evil and all want to rule but that non-mages simply can't compete with mages and that this will lead to them being second class citizens even if the mages don't mean to. The fact that every society where mages are given greater freedoms eventually has them as the leaders supports this conjecture.

 This is not a communistic society mate and if mages are more capable then they should rule. Inh this world people have with more intelligence and skills rule and those who have not dont. Thats a simple fact of live. You demand mages who are better for society to remain impotent and ineffective. while you demand nothing from the mundanes. They choose to be weak yet we have seen plenty of times that mundanes can in fact wield magic. Its not the fault of the mages that mundanes are to cowarldy and weak to improve themselves.

You promote weakness and self destruction. You wish to keep a people weak for no other reason then fear. which is not grounded at all.

[TheKomandorShepard]

MisterJB wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

MisterJB mages are humans some want rule others want just live with family others want travel around world.You assume that mages are all evil because they want dominate others with evil ruler yes with good ruler not as empress in orlais have absolute power and treat villagers and citizens like trashes which can be killed or raped and only nobility have power , Ferelden treating them much better and they are free even woman from orlais says that in orgins.You can enslave peoples whitout magic orlais is best example and not always power means tyrany.

You asume that mages must be leaders why some can be others can be medics others merchants as others non mages. 

Nah, that's not my point at all.

It's true that chevaliers and the like can be quite dreadful despite not being mages and that there are likely mages who got no interest in ruling. But, everyone has an interest in improving their living conditions and people use their skills to accomplish this.
There is nothing wrong with that, of course; it's, in fact, what makes the world spin. But it just so happens mages are just that much more skillful than non-mages; their abilities are just exceptionally useful and while this might sound great at first because that means it can be used for the good of society, one must also realize that life is a competition and that those who can't do so are left behind.
Forget about slavery or mages wielding whips for a second and focus instead on economy. Money is power, plain and simple. Given its useful nature, magic will, inevitably, take over the infrastructure; picture, if you will, cars and plains and electricity and medical machines all moving with the power of magic.
Now where does this leaves the people who can't do magic. At the bottom, that's where.

And that is my point, not that mages are all evil and all want to rule but that non-mages simply can't compete with mages and that this will lead to them being second class citizens even if the mages don't mean to. The fact that every society where mages are given greater freedoms eventually has them as the leaders supports this conjecture.

Hmm you comparing to lotion have at least some sense and good arguments because he seems to me like Kim Jong son but magic can't drive everything perhaps medicine, war and crafting but that's all there is many professions which magic for will not be fuel.In society there always will be more talented and clever peoples who end on the top and that less talented.In others games or stories magic is able to function if culture don't corrupt them like red wizards of thay but even so worlds which are full of magic like tamriel or faerun.I think that tribes choose mages to leaders or spiritual leaders are pretyy common in fantasy.  

[vpacheco1984]

MisterJB wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

MisterJB mages are humans some want rule others want just live with family others want travel around world.You assume that mages are all evil because they want dominate others with evil ruler yes with good ruler not as empress in orlais have absolute power and treat villagers and citizens like trashes which can be killed or raped and only nobility have power , Ferelden treating them much better and they are free even woman from orlais says that in orgins.You can enslave peoples whitout magic orlais is best example and not always power means tyrany.

You asume that mages must be leaders why some can be others can be medics others merchants as others non mages. 

Nah, that's not my point at all.

It's true that chevaliers and the like can be quite dreadful despite not being mages and that there are likely mages who got no interest in ruling. But, everyone has an interest in improving their living conditions and people use their skills to accomplish this.
There is nothing wrong with that, of course; it's, in fact, what makes the world spin. But it just so happens mages are just that much more skillful than non-mages; their abilities are just exceptionally useful and while this might sound great at first because that means it can be used for the good of society, one must also realize that life is a competition and that those who can't do so are left behind.
Forget about slavery or mages wielding whips for a second and focus instead on economy. Money is power, plain and simple. Given its useful nature, magic will, inevitably, take over the infrastructure; picture, if you will, cars and plains and electricity and medical machines all moving with the power of magic.
Now where does this leaves the people who can't do magic. At the bottom, that's where.

And that is my point, not that mages are all evil and all want to rule but that non-mages simply can't compete with mages and that this will lead to them being second class citizens even if the mages don't mean to. The fact that every society where mages are given greater freedoms eventually has them as the leaders supports this conjecture.

Your are so wrong. Magic will not give mages a leg up on the economy or take over the infrastructure. Besides you seem to go on the assumption that all mages have the same strengths which is untrue. I don't remember where it was but someone already pointed this out. Maybe they can a mage smith could put out better weapons, furinture, tableware or whatever faster and better then a mundane but they may not. Look at Wade he was a mundane and considered the one of the best in Thadus. Just becasue someone has magic doesn't mean they will be better. If you want to use farming the same thing, just becasue  they have magic doesn't mean they will grow bigger and better crops. Even if they do they could very well help their mundane neighbors  with their own crops. Allowing mages to have a live beyond the circle as slaves would not result in economic domination by mages is very narrow minded. 

[MisterJB]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Hmm you comparing to lotion have at least some sense and good arguments because he seems to me like Kim Jong son but magic can't drive everything perhaps medicine, war and crafting but that's all there is many professions which magic for will not be fuel.

Such as?

In society there always will be more talented and clever peoples who end on the top and that less talented.

That is certainly but at least technology, knowledge and money can be used by all, regardless of birth. Certainly, there are many social conventions that can limit others but the infrastructure itself is not set up in a way that can be used or taken advantage of by a certain group of people.
If electricity is developed in Thedas as it was in our world, both non-mages and mages can use it for their benefit. If that electricity is created by magic; as it as already began to be given that Val-Royeaux streets are illuminated through magically crafted lamps; only the mages can provide which means they hold a monopoly.

In others games or stories magic is able to function if culture don't corrupt them like red wizards of thay but even so worlds which are full of magic like tamriel or faerun.I think that tribes choose mages to leaders or spiritual leaders are pretyy common in fantasy.  

Meh, because dealing with the economic possibilities of magic is boring when there can be cool explosions to be had so, it's not a much explored avenue of thought. That I have seen, at least.

[MisterJB]

vpacheco1984 wrote...
Maybe they can a mage smith could put out better weapons, furinture, tableware or whatever faster and better then a mundane but they may not. Look at Wade he was a mundane and considered the one of the best in Thadus. Just becasue someone has magic doesn't mean they will be better.

Incorrect. Wade freely admits the dwarves of Orzammar make the best armors. However, in the comic books, we see a teenager apostate who know only one spell; how to create fire; and yet is capable of making weapons that cut through dwarven armor and the Carta tries to force her to work for them.
Therefore, one can see how she could train apprentrices who would dominate the metallurgy industry.

If you want to use farming the same thing, just becasue  they have magic doesn't mean they will grow bigger and better crops.

There's probrably a spell for that somewhere.

Even if they do they could very well help their mundane neighbors  with their own crops.

Nope, magic will be a sought after good. Goods are commercialized, not given away.