Who is that Masked Man wrote...
So your plan is that the templars first abandon the Chantry to make war with the mages, then kill/tranquil/imprison all the mages, and then make a deal with a demon to mend the veil?
I'm not sure if you're kidding, or if you really do want to see the templars descend into puppy-punting, mustache-twirling villainy.
Eveangaline wrote...
How do the Dalish keep their mages from being taken over as often as the humans seem to?
vpacheco1984 wrote...
Fereldend was a disaster becasue of Uldred but also Logain. If it wasn't for the promise that the circle would be freed if Uldred added Logain he may not have rebelled. As for Kirkwall it was a disaster long before Anders even set foot in the city and that was becasue of the templars and how harshly they controlled the mage.
Meredith was destorying the circle by the third act she had even called for the ROA from the Divine for blood mages that weren't there.
Almost all of the blood mage were on the outside of the circle not inside, Orsino doesn't count he hadn't been a blood mage until he lost his mind.
As for Asunder that was mostly Lumbert. There was the whole wanting to destroy something that could help mages. As for the vote if he had actually tried investigating instead of just jumping at the chance to execute Rhys like had been wanting to since Rhys stood up to him in his office. He was already convinced that he was the one killing the apprentices, when in reality it was Cole, though they shouldn't have been looking at the mages but the templars becuase they are the only ones who could have gotten to the victims.
Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 01 juillet 2013 - 12:26 .
DPSSOC wrote...
Silfren wrote...
I think part of the problem here is that MisterJB seems to conflate mage leadership with mage domination, and mage domination with the tyrannical subjugation of mundanes.
Mages being in leadership positions does not mean that we're just a hair's breadth away from Tevinter. Yes, the potential is there; that should go without saying. But the inevitability of a decline into tyranny is not a given.
If mages rule, if mages are the only ones allowed to rule, and there exist no means for non-mages to contest their rulings it's not a hair's breadth from Tevinter it's there already.
DPSSOC wrote...
That is domination, that is tyranny, and that is what we see in the Dalish clans. For all people bring up the story of the Warden's father we have two in game instances where it's clearly demonstrated that the elders only have as much power as the Keeper allows them.
LobselVith8 wrote...
This is not clearly demonstrated, as no one can provide even one example of the Keeper overruling the elders.
Modifié par Mykel54, 01 juillet 2013 - 12:40 .
DPSSOC wrote...
Eveangaline wrote...
How do the Dalish keep their mages from being taken over as often as the humans seem to?
Well I'm sure that being effectively lords Dalish Mages don't have as much cause for turning to demons so most cases of demonic possession occur when a Dalish Mage is confronted and overpowered by a demon. Most cases we have of humans falling to demons are cases where they actively seek them out and try, and fail, to control them. So there is something to be said that the conditions Mages endure in Andrastian society do contribute to the amount of cases of possession.
Modifié par RobRam10, 01 juillet 2013 - 01:34 .
Mykel54 wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
This is not clearly demonstrated, as no one can provide even one example of the Keeper overruling the elders.
Marethari forces her clan to stay in Sundermount, they can´t leave without her permission. It is only 6 years after, that Master Ilen gets fed up and plans to leave by his own. The others like Fenarel or Ineria don´t even dare to go agaisnt the Keeper´s wishes, even after 6 years.
Mykel54 wrote...
The Keeper was endangering the clan by staying for so long in the same place, and not a single dalish is capable of standing up to her.
Mykel54 wrote...
The dalish also put up with having Feynriel with them, because the Keeper say so, no matter if having him around can be dangerous.
Mykel54 wrote...
The clan must do what Marethari says, and those who don´t agree have to leave, like Velanna did with her clan. Therefore the authority of the Keeper overrides the authority of everybody else.
Listen to the ambient banters in acts 2 and 3. The dalish want to leave, but Marethari doesn´t want to, so they stay there for 6 years, from Act1 to Act3.LobselVith8 wrote...
And you know this how? Because it's never presented in the narrative.
So you agree that the elders did nothing to challenge Marethari´s rule, even when she was endangering the clan. The only named elder in DA2 is Paivel, and he does nothing. I don´t know if Master Ilen is an elder too, but he is the only one to do something about it. What does he do? Prepare to pack up and leave, so much for challenging Marethari and forcing her to back down for the good of the clan.LobselVith8 wrote...
We never see anyone try, except for Merrill, who voluntarily left the Sabrae clan.
Read the letter that Feynriel sends Hawke, which shows just how much the dalish loved to have him around. Their reaction to the templars proves nothing about Feynriel, because even without him, they would still resist them. Can you say they would resist if it was another dalish clan instead of templars? They resist because they´re shemlen and templars, not because they want to protect Feynriel. It is about not bowing down to the templars, not about protecting the half breed that everyone but the Keeper looks with suspicion.LobselVith8 wrote...
The clan is willing to fight templars to protect Feynriel. Unless you're
going to introduce evidence that anyone opposed the decision, I don't
see the point. Aveline the Knight shows that there is a precedent for
the Dalish taking humans into their clan.
Show us evidence of this. What i get is that Mahariel´s father, the Keeper, got away with doing something the elders disapproved. At no point the elders managed to convince him to back down or rose the clan agaisnt him. They just grumbled and the Keeper got away with just what he wanted.LobselVith8 wrote...
The elders forbid a Keeper and a hunter from being together - per the Dalish Origin (the parents of the protagonist who had to meet in secret because of this edict).
Modifié par Mykel54, 01 juillet 2013 - 04:19 .
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Eveangaline wrote...
How do the Dalish keep their mages from being taken over as often as the humans seem to?
They don't. You just don't get to see it often, because usually the clan ends up dissapearing off the face of the earth when that happens.
We've seen two dalish clans.
One Keeper was a blood mage who ruined the lives of his clans and the cursed humans.
The other became an abomination.
A brilliant track record.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Who is that Masked Man wrote...
So your plan is that the templars first abandon the Chantry to make war with the mages, then kill/tranquil/imprison all the mages, and then make a deal with a demon to mend the veil?
I'm not sure if you're kidding, or if you really do want to see the templars descend into puppy-punting, mustache-twirling villainy.
I'd think that mages will be perfectly capable of mending the veil while in (templar) chains too.
Go templars!
My plan is to not have non-mages being reliant upon mages to close that hole in the sky thus depriving the mages of something through which they could demand concessions.Who is that Masked Man wrote...
So your plan is that the templars first abandon the Chantry to make war with the mages, then kill/tranquil/imprison all the mages, and then make a deal with a demon to mend the veil?
I'm not sure if you're kidding, or if you really do want to see the templars descend into puppy-punting, mustache-twirling villainy.
Unless you're a mage, because **** you, that's why!IceHawk-181 wrote...
So now dealing with Demons, so long as it is for the greater good, is acceptable?
Missed the point.Medhia Nox wrote...
@ice-hawke: it is for many mages.
I've yet to see anyone here advocate making deals with demons, or excuse mages for doing so. I certainly haven't.Medhia Nox wrote...
Not really. If you say it's good for a mage... why criticize it for anyonr else?
It's simply the opposite of the point trying to be made about JB's suggestion to use demons.
Modifié par Plaintiff, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:03 .
Pro-Templars believe strongly in the greater good and Pro-mages have defended the use of demons for years.IceHawk-181 wrote...
So now dealing with Demons, so long as it is for the greater good, is acceptable?
MisterJB wrote...
My plan is to not have non-mages being reliant upon mages to close that hole in the sky thus depriving the mages of something through which they could demand concessions.Who is that Masked Man wrote...
So your plan is that the templars first abandon the Chantry to make war with the mages, then kill/tranquil/imprison all the mages, and then make a deal with a demon to mend the veil?
I'm not sure if you're kidding, or if you really do want to see the templars descend into puppy-punting, mustache-twirling villainy.
Demons are just as capable of mending veil tears as evidenced by Warden's Keep.
MisterJB wrote...
Pro-Templars believe strongly in the greater good and Pro-mages have defended the use of demons for years.IceHawk-181 wrote...
So now dealing with Demons, so long as it is for the greater good, is acceptable?
In the words of Merril, we're not dealing with a demon, we're tricking it. As soon as it has finished mending the Veil, we'll tear it in half.
Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:07 .
MisterJB wrote...
My plan is to not have non-mages being reliant upon mages to close that hole in the sky thus depriving the mages of something through which they could demand concessions.Who is that Masked Man wrote...
So your plan is that the templars first abandon the Chantry to make war with the mages, then kill/tranquil/imprison all the mages, and then make a deal with a demon to mend the veil?
I'm not sure if you're kidding, or if you really do want to see the templars descend into puppy-punting, mustache-twirling villainy.
Demons are just as capable of mending veil tears as evidenced by Warden's Keep.
Is it hipocrisy? Laws ban civillians from owning weapons and yet governments arm the police and the army. Is that hypocrisy?Who is that Masked Man wrote...
So, basically, the answer is yes. You are okay with the templars becoming cartoonishly hypocritical villains.
"Mages are dangerous! They keep making deals with the demons! We must protect the world against them, by making a deal with the demons ourselves! Mwahahaha!"
Do go play it again, dear. You can side with the demon possessing Sophia Dryden's corpse, kill Avernus, have "Sophia" mend the Veil and then kill "her".vpacheco1984 wrote...
What? When did demons mend tears in the veil at the Warden's Keep? Oh wait they didn't. That was Avernus and the Warden and the Warden's companions. The demons tried stopping them from mending the veil. Also if you actually played the DLC, which I'm doubting, Sophia Dryden was the one who ordered Avernus to call demons to fight the Kings men.
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