1799 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

Do we have any examples of the Veil tearing open NOT being caused by mages and the use of magic? Weakening is close, but not the same.

note: please try something other than a knee jerk defensive stance... I'm not being accusatory... I'm genuinely asking.

I don't advocate using demons ever... Just use specially trained and sanctioned Exorcist mages I would have trained as part of my reformed circles.

That being said... I don't think using a demon only to close a portal is the height of hypocrisy.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:26 .

[LobselVith8]

Mykel54 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And you know this how? Because it's never presented in the narrative. 

Listen to the ambient banters in acts 2 and 3. The dalish want to leave, but Marethari doesn´t want to, so they stay there for 6 years, from Act1 to Act3.

We never see the elders contesting the stay at Sundermount with the Keeper, and no one but Merrill seems to actually tell Marethari that she's wrong.

Mykel54 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We never see anyone try, except for Merrill, who voluntarily left the Sabrae clan. 

So you agree that the elders did nothing to challenge Marethari´s rule, even when she was endangering the clan. The only named elder in DA2 is Paivel, and he does nothing. I don´t know if Master Ilen is an elder too, but he is the only one to do something about it. What does he do? Prepare to pack up and leave, so much for challenging Marethari and forcing her to back down for the good of the clan.

Many under the Teyrn's command didn't challenge Loghain, either, because they trusted him. Their refusal to try to convince Marethari to back down from this course of action doesn't mean they were unable to do so.

Mykel54 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The clan is willing to fight templars to protect Feynriel. Unless you're going to introduce evidence that anyone opposed the decision, I don't see the point. Aveline the Knight shows that there is a precedent for the Dalish taking humans into their clan.

Read the letter that Feynriel sends Hawke, which shows just how much the dalish loved to have him around. Their reaction to the templars proves nothing about Feynriel, because even without him, they would still resist them. Can you say they would resist if it was another dalish clan instead of templars? They resist because they´re shemlen and templars, not because they want to protect Feynriel. It is about not bowing down to the templars, not about protecting the half breed that everyone but the Keeper looks with suspicion.

I didn't claim everyone loved Feynriel. I pointed out that no one was shown to contest Marethari over his presence in the clan, and they were willing to fight the templars to defend him.

Mykel54 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elders forbid a Keeper and a hunter from being together - per the Dalish Origin (the parents of the protagonist who had to meet in secret because of this edict). 

Show us evidence of this. What i get is that Mahariel´s father, the Keeper, got away with doing something the elders disapproved. At no point the elders managed to convince him to back down or rose the clan agaisnt him. They just grumbled and the Keeper got away with just what he wanted. 

The Dalish protagonist's parents met in secret because it was forbidden. The Keeper didn't override their ruling.

Mykel54 wrote...

How do you plan to prove that the elders can stop the Keeper from doing something, when in all cases we have seen, the Keeper still managed to do exactly what she or he wanted? Marethari wanted to stay, some dalish grumbled, but they stayed. Mahariel the Keeper wanted to dally with the hunter, the dalish grumbled and he did it anyway. There is no evidence of the elders stopping the keeper from doing anything. 

We have proof from the Dalish Origin.

[BlueMagitek]

And then all of the troublesome Dalish found themselves tainted or dead. How convenient. ~_^

[Who is that Masked Man]

MisterJB wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...
So, basically, the answer is yes. You are okay with the templars becoming cartoonishly hypocritical villains.

"Mages are dangerous! They keep making deals with the demons! We must protect the world against them, by making a deal with the demons ourselves! Mwahahaha!"

Is it hipocrisy?

 

Yes, it damn well is hypocrisy. 

Laws ban civillians from owning weapons and yet governments arm the police and the army. Is that hypocrisy?

The army and the police have not sworn vows to serve a religious institution that teaches that "owning weapons" is evil and wrong. 

"Weapons" do not have agency. They cannot jump up and kill you by themselves, nor can they force anyone to pick them up and use them to do harm.

The army and the police do not make it their policy to destroy any "weapons" they find and kill anyone they find "holding a weapon."

But if those things were true, and the police decided to ignore their own avowed religious convictions and trust a bloodthirsty, sentient, superpowerful weapon rather than negotiate with an unarmed "criminal" who they are trying to arrest, then yes, I would say that would be massive hypocrisy on their part.

To not wish for an uneducated child like Connor to have contact with a demon who will dominate and use him to harm others or to not wish for a mage like Tahrone to summons demons she will use to harm others but be willing to use a demon in a strictly controlled setting so as to prevent their enemies from achieving an advantageous position is hardly cartoonish or hypocritical. It's just smart.

Let me break it down once last time: Your plan is for the templars to refuse to even negotiate with the mages and instead... while the world hangs in the balance... try to locate some exceptionally stupid yet extremely powerful demon who can somehow be convinced to close that giant tear in the veil, but then be killed afterwards before it can do any harm.

And you call this "smart."

I cannot over stress how much I disagree with that assessment. Seriously, it's lyrium-idol-corrupted Meredtih levels of insanity.

Goodbye, Mister JB. This is not a debate worth having.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish protagonist's parents met in secret because it was forbidden. The Keeper didn't override their ruling.

Because they were not part of his clan. If Stalin failed to dictate the policies of the United States, does that mean he didn't have supreme power over his own country?
What exactly is hard to comprehend about this?

[MWImexico]

Frankly, I can not believe there are people who would rather make a deal with a demon rather than cooperate with the mages.

It is in the best interest of everyone to close the veil, including the mages. And I think that if it's in their power, the mages will close the veil without even being asked. After all, they are the No. 1 target of the demons, so they have much to lose in this story.

Else, If it turns out that the spirits of the fade will no longer attack only the mages but everyone, it's one more reason not to try to make a deal with a demon.

[MisterJB]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...
The army and the police have not sworn vows to serve a religious institution that teaches that "owning weapons" is evil and wrong. 

"Weapons" do not have agency. They cannot jump up and kill you by themselves, nor can they force anyone to pick them up and use them to do harm.

The army and the police do not make it their policy to destroy any "weapons" they find and kill anyone they find "holding a weapon."

But if those things were true, and the police decided to ignore their own avowed religious convictions and trust a bloodthirsty, sentient, superpowerful weapon rather than negotiate with an unarmed "criminal" who they are trying to arrest, then yes, I would say that would be massive hypocrisy on their part.

Incorrect. You are condemning my suggestion for it involving using something that we condemn mages for using.
There are laws against owning certain weapons that the military uses that can grant you jail time meaning that people are most certainly being condemned for using guns. Therefore, if you will condemn the templars for it, you must also condemn nearly every civilized country in the world.
The differences between guns and demons are irrelevant to his subject.

Or we can simply accept that just like there are certain weapons whose destructive capabilities are so great that require special care that can only be provided by certain organization and that is no hypocrisy.

Let me break it down once last time: Your plan is for the templars to refuse to even negotiate with the mages and instead... while the world hangs in the balance... try to locate some exceptionally stupid yet extremely powerful demon who can somehow be convinced to close that giant tear in the veil, but then be killed afterwards before it can do any harm.

And you call this "smart."

Unlike mages, demons are politically neutral and lack an history of conflict with non-mages which means reaching an agreement with it will be easier. They are also less complex than an entire population of individuals which means its goals can be more easily prodicted and countered. They also lack allies meaning one can trap one demon and not fear a rescue mission.
One demon or even a small group; even if they escape; are liable to cause less damage than whatever concessions would be granted to mages. Also, if mages do not participate in the saving of the world, they also can't pull up the sympathy card in the aftermath.
Relatively speaking, it is the smarter choice. Circunstances may change that but I am not so willing to allow the entire world to be held hostage to the readyness of mages.

I cannot over stress how much I disagree with that assessment.

You're free to do so. I disagree with yours.

Goodbye, Mister JB. This is not a debate worth having.

Bye.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 juillet 2013 - 09:25 .

[MisterJB]

MWImexico wrote...

Frankly, I can not believe there are people who would rather make a deal with a demon rather than cooperate with the mages.

Let's assume for a second Avernus' price for mending the Veil was a continuous batch of test subjects and that, unlike with "Sophie", the Warden simply is not in a position to just kill him. Wouldn't you rather make the deal with demon?
Now, I'm not saying that mages will demand to be named "Supreme Rulers of Thedas" as their price but they might just make demands Pro-Templars might find unnaceptable. In such a case, it's preferable to go to the demons if they can achieve the same result.
Anders said it himself "Is it so strange I want a world worth saving?"

It is in the best interest of everyone to close the veil, including the mages. And I think that if it's in their power, the mages will close the veil without even being asked. After all, they are the No. 1 target of the demons, so they have much to lose in this story.

Else, If it turns out that the spirits of the fade will no longer attack only the mages but everyone, it's one more reason not to try to make a deal with a demon.

If it turns out spirits of the Fade not only attack mages but everyone, the mages might actually have an interest in keeping the Voil tore open since given the greater number of non-mages, they will become the main source of food for demons which would thin out the enemy population and keep busy the armies that might be sent against the mages if there were no demonic interference.
Sure, they'll close it...when it's convenient.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 juillet 2013 - 09:20 .

[Medhia Nox]

Conversly - if Templars cannot use demons - why can mages? Why are they "just a tool" when mages use things like Demons and Blood magic?

[MWImexico]

@MisterJB : If there is an alternative to craziness (you know, like cooperate with the mages for exemple), I will take it. Why close a door when there's no viable reason? If a mage dares to make demands for closing the veil, I'll eat my hat. Or I'll slap him on the spot. Seriously.

And good luck to find a demon enough strong & stupid to do the job, I'm just saying. I think it's a to much important part of the story of the game to be treated like that.

[TheKomandorShepard]

MisterJB wrote...
If it turns out spirits of the Fade not only attack mages but everyone, the mages might actually have an interest in keeping the Voil tore open since given the greater number of non-mages, they will become the main source of food for demons which would thin out the enemy population and keep busy the armies that might be sent against the mages if there were no demonic interference.
Sure, they'll close it...when it's convenient.

Problem is in that mages or non mages are screwed because demons kills everything in their way so i doubt that they will risk end of the world , but i don't see point why mages should care about non-mages so that as they treat them they may have no intrest in saving them as child locked in basement by father for entire life  may not be intrested in saving his father. Mages for demons aren't food everyting can be possesed if demon cross veil from tress to humans. Tevinter on other hand may be glad as any other country as long veil is torn in another country and kill their enemies.Besides mages have to fight their freedom i doubt any (you or me) would help somone who keep us in prison and threat us like animals just to back into prison and still be treated like that. 

Besides JB why demons who want pass through the veil and slaughter everything will be intrested in helping you  closing something that gives them that possibility ?And what you will give them for exchange and you think that they are stupid enough to think that you let him live after that he do it and let him slaughter others?

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 01 juillet 2013 - 09:53 .

[MisterJB]

MWImexico wrote...

@MisterJB : If there is an alternative to craziness (you know, like cooperate with the mages for exemple), I will take it. Why close a door when there's no viable reason? If a mage dares to make demands for closing the veil, I'll eat my hat. Or I'll slap him on the spot. Seriously.

Every time the mages were called to help with something like a Bligth, they would take advantage of it. You don't seriously think that, if asked to close the Veil, the mages will pull a list of things they want in return?
They would have to be braindead in order to not take advantage of this.
Worse yet, they might just allow the demons to eat their fill of non-mages before closing it so things will be easier for them afterwards.

And good luck to find a demon enough strong & stupid to do the job, I'm just saying. I think it's a to much important part of the story of the game to be treated like that.

Oh, I have no doubt that, if the Veil can be repared, a large portion of the game will be about convincing the mages to do it. I just wish using demons instead would be an option.

And it shouldn't be hard to convince a demon. Just explain how the increased number of his ilk on Thedas means there are less humans to go around and they might even go extinct. Since demons feel not loyalty towards each other, chances are it will do it.

[MWImexico]

@ MisterJB : Just imagine 2 sec how the world will react if the mages don't do anything. Instead of only the templars, everybody will hate the mages and for a good reason this time (or at least a better one that this all magister thing). Talk about a suicidal senario.

Arf, where is my coercition skill when I need it? XD Well I guess that about this subject we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think either of us will change his mind.

[TheKomandorShepard]

MWImexico wrote...

@ MisterJB : Just imagine 2 sec how the world will react if the mages don't do anything. Instead of only the templars, everybody will hate the mages and for a good reason this time (or at least a better one that this all magister thing). Talk about a suicidal senario.

Arf, where is my coercition skill when I need it? XD Well I guess that about this subject we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think either of us will change his mind.

Hello they already hate them due to chantry teachings xD good reason i don't see that as good reason they threat them like trashes and now they expect supporting like nothing happened little di*** from society side.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish protagonist's parents met in secret because it was forbidden. The Keeper didn't override their ruling.

Because they were not part of his clan. If Stalin failed to dictate the policies of the United States, does that mean he didn't have supreme power over his own country?
What exactly is hard to comprehend about this? 

Yet the decision was made by the elders of the clan, not by their Keeper.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

So now dealing with Demons, so long as it is for the greater good, is acceptable?

Unless you're a mage, because **** you, that's why!

Besides Merril can you name a single Mage who's dealt with demons to serve a greater good?

[MWImexico]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Hello they already hate them due to chantry teachings xD good reason i don't see that as good reason they threat them like trashes and now they expect supporting like nothing happened little di*** from society side.

Maybe it's the time to prove them wrong

[DPSSOC]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Who is that Masked Man wrote...
So your plan is that the templars first abandon the Chantry to make war with the mages, then kill/tranquil/imprison all the mages, and then make a deal with a demon to mend the veil?

I'm not sure if you're kidding, or if you really do want to see the templars descend into puppy-punting, mustache-twirling villainy.

My plan is to not have non-mages being reliant upon mages to close that hole in the sky thus depriving the mages of something through which they could demand concessions.
Demons are just as capable of mending veil tears as evidenced by Warden's Keep.

So the mages can't demand concessions. because the don't deserver them after nearlly a thousands years of imprisonment, rape, torture, forced lobotomies and murder?

 
I think JB is just talking about finding a solution that doesn't give the mages grounds to demand further concessions.  You can see the Mages and Templars agreeing to close the tear and then just before they do the Mages going, "Oh by the way before we do this..." because at that point they've got the world by the short hairs.  It's what anyone would do in that situation.

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

MWImexico wrote...
@ MisterJB : Just imagine 2 sec how the world will react if the mages don't do anything. Instead of only the templars, everybody will hate the mages and for a good reason this time (or at least a better one that this all magister thing). Talk about a suicidal senario.

Arf, where is my coercition skill when I need it? XD Well I guess that about this subject we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think either of us will change his mind.

Hello they already hate them due to chantry teachings xD good reason i don't see that as good reason they threat them like trashes and now they expect supporting like nothing happened little di*** from society side.

:head desk: It's.  Not.  Hate.  The general populace FEAR Mages because they believe them to be dangerous.  This belief is reinforced by Xavier Syndrome where practically any time somebody suggests that Mages aren't dangerous or it's possible for them to live in peace, some Mage has blown something up or the like.  Hell we see this at the end of DA2, Orsino and Pro-Mage Hawke are trying to convince Meredith she's over reacting and that not all Mages are bad and then along comes Anders and BOOM!

[TheKomandorShepard]

MWImexico wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Hello they already hate them due to chantry teachings xD good reason i don't see that as good reason they threat them like trashes and now they expect supporting like nothing happened little di*** from society side.

Maybe it's the time to prove them wrong

They try in Qunari wars , try helping during fifth blight and possible two heroes (warden and hawke) are mages something was changed a bit nope as long culture will be teaching something should be feared and hate they will do that ,that touch mostly immature peoples .

DPS not hate just listen random peoples in orgins when they gossip about mages and read asunder when Wynne and Rhys are in Tavern pretty much hate for me , mages are peoples not superhumans and have human impulses i someone attack them or their humanity they will protect that and themselfes , and listen what way grand cleric react to uldred proposition helping in tower only sister who know we are mages and treats us well is sister in redcliffe because they need help.That is reason why elves are treat that same way.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 01 juillet 2013 - 11:05 .

[In Exile]

DPSSOC wrote...
Besides Merril can you name a single Mage who's dealt with demons to serve a greater good?

Uldred? He wanted to use demonology to free he mages from the Chantry. You might argue that Avernus was, in the end, using demons for a just cause. 

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...
My plan is to not have non-mages being reliant upon mages to close that hole in the sky thus depriving the mages of something through which they could demand concessions.
Demons are just as capable of mending veil tears as evidenced by Warden's Keep.

Did you read your own words here?  It's preferable to BARGAIN WITH A DEMON than to make concessions toward mages?!?

Modifié par Silfren, 01 juillet 2013 - 11:16 .

[MWImexico]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

They try in Qunari wars , try helping during fifth blight and possible two heroes (warden and hawke) are mages something was changed a bit nope as long culture will be teaching something should be feared and hate they will do that ,that touch mostly immature peoples .

Well, look at what can happen to the clan of Merrill because of hatred. What I'm saying is, maybe this is a great opportunity to show the best side of the mages (and to save their own skin by the way). 

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Did you read your own words here?  It's preferable to BARGAIN WITH A DEMON than to make concessions toward mages?!?

Unlike mages, demons are politically neutral and lack an history of conflict with non-mages which means reaching an agreement with it will be easier. They are also less complex than an entire population of individuals which means its goals can be more easily predicted and countered. They also lack allies meaning one can trap one demon and not fear a rescue mission.
One demon or even a small group; even if they escape; are liable to cause less damage than whatever concessions would be granted to mages would. Also, if mages do not participate in the saving of the world, they also can't pull up the sympathy card in the aftermath.
Lastly, a demon or a group we can kill (depending on the size) after they've done what we needed. Not so with mages.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 juillet 2013 - 11:32 .

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
My plan is to not have non-mages being reliant upon mages to close that hole in the sky thus depriving the mages of something through which they could demand concessions.
Demons are just as capable of mending veil tears as evidenced by Warden's Keep.

Did you read your own words here?  It's preferable to BARGAIN WITH A DEMON than to make concessions toward mages?!?

I preferred the Grand Oak to the crazed hermit.