I, for one, welcome our demonic overlords...
But to answer the question seriously, my gut would say neither, I'd need to see how the whole thing is represented in game and how characters on both sides act to form a proper opinion on the subject...
Where do YOU stand in the Mage/Templar War?
Débuté par
Luiren
, juin 10 2013 12:53
Retour en haut
#127
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 09:56
IanPolaris
-
- Members
- 9 650 messages
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
I stand on the side of sanity. It is not sensible to treat an entire group of people like non-humans and expect such a system to end well. On the other hand it is not sensible to ignore the dangers that mages and magic allow for, especially when untrained. What's more, it's illogical to place the care and maintenance of an entire group of people into another group that institutionally fears and despises them.
Incorrect.
I must have misheard the statement from multiple chantry sisters and mothers not to mention Templars that says that magic is a curse that the world must be protected from. Seems like institutionalized hate and fear to me.
-Polaris
#128
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 10:00
Guest_Puddi III_*
Guest_Puddi III_*
-
- Guests
Indeed, and that is why the policing force must be secular. Hate is inherent to the dogma.
#129
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 11:00
Lotion Soronarr
-
- Members
- 14 481 messages
IanPolaris wrote...
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
I stand on the side of sanity. It is not sensible to treat an entire group of people like non-humans and expect such a system to end well. On the other hand it is not sensible to ignore the dangers that mages and magic allow for, especially when untrained. What's more, it's illogical to place the care and maintenance of an entire group of people into another group that institutionally fears and despises them.
Incorrect.
I must have misheard the statement from multiple chantry sisters and mothers not to mention Templars that says that magic is a curse that the world must be protected from. Seems like institutionalized hate and fear to me.
-Polaris
Nope. You misheard. OR should I say, you heard what you want to hear and infer.
Institutionalized hate? Not at all.
Fear? Logical, not institutionalized.
#130
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 11:08
Quatre
-
- Members
- 2 682 messages
Luiren wrote...
What side will you pick in the next Dragon Age game?
Templars. Then Mages. Then [insert random faction].
#131
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 11:53
Porenferser
-
- Members
- 1 607 messages
Templars, without a doubt.
Purge all threats:police:
Purge all threats:police:
#132
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 12:06
Xiltas
-
- Members
- 388 messages
The mages, all the way. The chantry makes use of the fear against mages, condemning them and painting them like murderous bastards. The way that many templars treat the mages is despicable at least.
Besides, the chantry draws justification from a time when mage oppression was strong. Which is over for about a millenium?
Besides, the chantry draws justification from a time when mage oppression was strong. Which is over for about a millenium?
#133
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 12:23
Hillbillyhat
-
- Members
- 198 messages
For now keep the Templars and the Circle system until they can find a better way. Mages are quite frankly in constant danger. Templars need to protect them from others and themselves. Kirkwall system was completely retarded and should've been reformed immediately. Fereldan's circle appeared a bit overly conservative at times, but downright lax in their security (easily obtainable blood magic books)
For now I side with the status quo. There should be some reform, but letting mages go at it alone is not a great idea. You don't even have to be a evil mage to be a danger to others and yourself. If Demons weren't preying on Mages constantly then I would be more likely to give them more freedom. For now Templars are needed to keep watch over Mages. They shouldn't treat them like prisoners since the Circle should feel like a home to them. Of course the Templars have the terrible job of having to kill a family member in case a demon takes them over. In some cases its kind of hard to see who has it worse.
For now I side with the status quo. There should be some reform, but letting mages go at it alone is not a great idea. You don't even have to be a evil mage to be a danger to others and yourself. If Demons weren't preying on Mages constantly then I would be more likely to give them more freedom. For now Templars are needed to keep watch over Mages. They shouldn't treat them like prisoners since the Circle should feel like a home to them. Of course the Templars have the terrible job of having to kill a family member in case a demon takes them over. In some cases its kind of hard to see who has it worse.
#134
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 01:03
MisterJB
-
- Members
- 15 583 messages
I'm on the side of the non-magical people of Thedas which, until recently, meant the side of the Templars. After the schism with the Chantry, it's unknown if the rogue templars pose a threat themselves.
Mostly, I'm against magic. It's too dangerous and it brings untold suffering onto Thedas. Mantaining the Circle is an ugly, thankless job but someone has to do it.
Mostly, I'm against magic. It's too dangerous and it brings untold suffering onto Thedas. Mantaining the Circle is an ugly, thankless job but someone has to do it.
#135
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 01:13
Uccio
-
- Members
- 4 696 messages
FREEDOM!!!! For mages! Death to templars!
#136
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 01:36
Medhia Nox
-
- Members
- 5 066 messages
@IanPolaris: So you would release all prisoners then? It's true - the parallels are not the same, but simply going with your statement about "the care of" this question applies.
You think prison guards love and respect the inmates? Or, do you admit you deny them equal rights because you've decided that prisoners "get what they deserve"? It's true they've committed a crime - but other people have decided the crimes.
How about sanitarium staff? You think they don't fear a great many of their patients (and very likely despise more than a few)? This parallels much closer as these are people born different from what we've decided is the norm of society. There is no empirical evidence that a man hearing voices is any less deserving of freedom and happiness than a man who does not. Yet we deny them freedom and happiness all the time. You need not even go so far as the "criminally insane" - just look at the parent that drugs out their ADHD child.
But - you might say: "Yes, but that man is capable of dangerous things. Or, yes - but that child is disruptive in class and to the other students."
I would agree. Some people are born dangerous (or disruptive). And some people capable of dangerous things are institutionalized before they commit those dangerous acts. They are even "tranquilized".
This is what I have against mage supporters in general. They're projecting their own pet minority onto the mages. If mages are any real world minority - they're asylum patients (not modern mental clinics - but not too far either). Not "gays" or whatever.
You think prison guards love and respect the inmates? Or, do you admit you deny them equal rights because you've decided that prisoners "get what they deserve"? It's true they've committed a crime - but other people have decided the crimes.
How about sanitarium staff? You think they don't fear a great many of their patients (and very likely despise more than a few)? This parallels much closer as these are people born different from what we've decided is the norm of society. There is no empirical evidence that a man hearing voices is any less deserving of freedom and happiness than a man who does not. Yet we deny them freedom and happiness all the time. You need not even go so far as the "criminally insane" - just look at the parent that drugs out their ADHD child.
But - you might say: "Yes, but that man is capable of dangerous things. Or, yes - but that child is disruptive in class and to the other students."
I would agree. Some people are born dangerous (or disruptive). And some people capable of dangerous things are institutionalized before they commit those dangerous acts. They are even "tranquilized".
This is what I have against mage supporters in general. They're projecting their own pet minority onto the mages. If mages are any real world minority - they're asylum patients (not modern mental clinics - but not too far either). Not "gays" or whatever.
Modifié par Medhia Nox, 10 juin 2013 - 01:37 .
#137
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 01:43
Lysander
-
- Members
- 4 messages
I don't support either side, the problem is that the people of Thedas are so afraid of mages they'll never really allow them to roam freely, nor should they because every mage is a potential for danger.
I don't think there's a peaceful solution, what with all the fear and the desire for power. The war was inevitable, and if there really isn't a peaceful solution - or some world changing event (Sandel) - then I support the Templars, not the fanatic ones that want to kill/turn tranquill all mages, the sane ones that just want peace, like Cullen or Gregoir
I don't think there's a peaceful solution, what with all the fear and the desire for power. The war was inevitable, and if there really isn't a peaceful solution - or some world changing event (Sandel) - then I support the Templars, not the fanatic ones that want to kill/turn tranquill all mages, the sane ones that just want peace, like Cullen or Gregoir
#138
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 02:04
9TailsFox
-
- Members
- 3 713 messages
Lysander wrote...
I don't support either side, the problem is that the people of Thedas are so afraid of mages they'll never really allow them to roam freely, nor should they because every mage is a potential for danger.
I don't think there's a peaceful solution, what with all the fear and the desire for power. The war was inevitable, and if there really isn't a peaceful solution - or some world changing event (Sandel) - then I support the Templars, not the fanatic ones that want to kill/turn tranquill all mages, the sane ones that just want peace, like Cullen or Gregoir
Like Cullen : "Mages are not people like you and me Hawke" yes he is shining example of good templar. I agree on Gregoir at least he is nice templar.
#139
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 02:05
IanPolaris
-
- Members
- 9 650 messages
[post duplicated below]
Modifié par IanPolaris, 10 juin 2013 - 02:14 .
#140
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 02:07
MisterJB
-
- Members
- 15 583 messages
But it's true. Mages and not people like Cullen and non-mage Hawke. Their magic makes them much more dangerous and, thus, the way they are treated should account for this important difference.9TailsFox wrote...
Like Cullen : "Mages are not people like you and me Hawke" yes he is shining example of good templar. I agree on Gregoir at least he is nice templar.
But that doesn't imply they are being denied a personhood and Cullen has never abused anyone.
#141
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 02:07
IanPolaris
-
- Members
- 9 650 messages
[quote]Medhia Nox wrote...
@IanPolaris: So you would release all prisoners then? It's true - the parallels are not the same, but simply going with your statement about "the care of" this question applies.
You think prison guards love and respect the inmates? Or, do you admit you deny them equal rights because you've decided that prisoners "get what they deserve"? It's true they've committed a crime - but other people have decided the crimes.
[/quote]
Prisoners are there for what they have done. If you can't recognize the difference between that and imprisoning people for what they are, then I can't help you.
[quote]
How about sanitarium staff? You think they don't fear a great many of their patients (and very likely despise more than a few)? This parallels much closer as these are people born different from what we've decided is the norm of society. There is no empirical evidence that a man hearing voices is any less deserving of freedom and happiness than a man who does not. Yet we deny them freedom and happiness all the time. You need not even go so far as the "criminally insane" - just look at the parent that drugs out their ADHD child.
[/quote]
You need to get out of the 1950s. Santarium patients are there either by their own request or because of what they've done. The day of sending an involuntary mental patient and "warehousing them" is over and it has been over for at least a couple of decades now (and because of abuses very much like what we see in Dragon Age's fictional templars).[/quote]
[quote]
But - you might say: "Yes, but that man is capable of dangerous things. Or, yes - but that child is disruptive in class and to the other students."
[/quote]
But you do NOT discpline the child under after he or she has proven to actually be disruptive. To do otherwise actually makes discipline problems worse.
[quote]
I would agree. Some people are born dangerous (or disruptive). And some people capable of dangerous things are institutionalized before they commit those dangerous acts. They are even "tranquilized".
[/quote]
You still don't discipline a child (or anyone even an animal) UNTIL it actually misbehaves.
[quote]
This is what I have against mage supporters in general. They're projecting their own pet minority onto the mages. If mages are any real world minority - they're asylum patients (not modern mental clinics - but not too far either). Not "gays" or whatever.
[/quote]
This is what I frankly despise about a lot of Templar Supporters. They want to forget all the moral lessons since the middle ages and lock away (or worse) people for what they are rather than what they've done. If you can justify it to yourself in a game, it's far too easy to justify it to yourself in real life too. [That's distinct from playing a character that you know has a bad moral compass and having fun with in anyway. That is a completely different and distinct case altogether.]
-Polaris[/quote]
@IanPolaris: So you would release all prisoners then? It's true - the parallels are not the same, but simply going with your statement about "the care of" this question applies.
You think prison guards love and respect the inmates? Or, do you admit you deny them equal rights because you've decided that prisoners "get what they deserve"? It's true they've committed a crime - but other people have decided the crimes.
[/quote]
Prisoners are there for what they have done. If you can't recognize the difference between that and imprisoning people for what they are, then I can't help you.
[quote]
How about sanitarium staff? You think they don't fear a great many of their patients (and very likely despise more than a few)? This parallels much closer as these are people born different from what we've decided is the norm of society. There is no empirical evidence that a man hearing voices is any less deserving of freedom and happiness than a man who does not. Yet we deny them freedom and happiness all the time. You need not even go so far as the "criminally insane" - just look at the parent that drugs out their ADHD child.
[/quote]
You need to get out of the 1950s. Santarium patients are there either by their own request or because of what they've done. The day of sending an involuntary mental patient and "warehousing them" is over and it has been over for at least a couple of decades now (and because of abuses very much like what we see in Dragon Age's fictional templars).[/quote]
[quote]
But - you might say: "Yes, but that man is capable of dangerous things. Or, yes - but that child is disruptive in class and to the other students."
[/quote]
But you do NOT discpline the child under after he or she has proven to actually be disruptive. To do otherwise actually makes discipline problems worse.
[quote]
I would agree. Some people are born dangerous (or disruptive). And some people capable of dangerous things are institutionalized before they commit those dangerous acts. They are even "tranquilized".
[/quote]
You still don't discipline a child (or anyone even an animal) UNTIL it actually misbehaves.
[quote]
This is what I have against mage supporters in general. They're projecting their own pet minority onto the mages. If mages are any real world minority - they're asylum patients (not modern mental clinics - but not too far either). Not "gays" or whatever.
[/quote]
This is what I frankly despise about a lot of Templar Supporters. They want to forget all the moral lessons since the middle ages and lock away (or worse) people for what they are rather than what they've done. If you can justify it to yourself in a game, it's far too easy to justify it to yourself in real life too. [That's distinct from playing a character that you know has a bad moral compass and having fun with in anyway. That is a completely different and distinct case altogether.]
-Polaris[/quote]
Modifié par IanPolaris, 10 juin 2013 - 02:10 .
#142
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 02:09
IanPolaris
-
- Members
- 9 650 messages
MisterJB wrote...
But it's true. Mages and not people like Cullen and non-mage Hawke. Their magic makes them much more dangerous and, thus, the way they are treated should account for this important difference.9TailsFox wrote...
Like Cullen : "Mages are not people like you and me Hawke" yes he is shining example of good templar. I agree on Gregoir at least he is nice templar.
But that doesn't imply they are being denied a personhood and Cullen has never abused anyone.
Knight Captain Cullen pretty much explicitly says that Mages are to be denied treatment as people and thus their personhood. It's one of the vilest quotes in Dragon Age 2.
-Polaris
#143
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 02:17
MisterJB
-
- Members
- 15 583 messages
No, what Knight Captain Cullen said is that mages are not like non-mages and thus should not be treated in the same fashion. Which is true and a very reasonable precaution. Treating a 9mm and a nuclear weapon as if they are the same thing is irresponsible and wanton to cause much suffering.
#144
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 02:19
Xilizhra
-
- Members
- 30 873 messages
He says that, but earlier says "mages cannot be treated like people." If he'd said "cannot be treated like normal/mundane people," then it might have been different, but the way he said it reveals much about how the templar mind works in this cas.MisterJB wrote...
No, what Knight Captain Cullen said is that mages are not like non-mages and thus should not be treated in the same fashion. Which is true and a very reasonable precaution. Treating a 9mm and a nuclear weapon as if they are the same thing is irresponsible and wanton to cause much suffering.
#145
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 02:20
Uccio
-
- Members
- 4 696 messages
MisterJB wrote...
But it's true. Mages and not people like Cullen and non-mage Hawke. Their magic makes them much more dangerous and, thus, the way they are treated should account for this important difference.9TailsFox wrote...
Like Cullen : "Mages are not people like you and me Hawke" yes he is shining example of good templar. I agree on Gregoir at least he is nice templar.
But that doesn't imply they are being denied a personhood and Cullen has never abused anyone.
People seem to forget that Tevinter Imperium ruled Thedas for millenias just fine. Magister ruled continent didn´t implode because of magic.
#146
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 02:22
billy the squid
-
- Members
- 4 669 messages
Ukki wrote...
MisterJB wrote...
But it's true. Mages and not people like Cullen and non-mage Hawke. Their magic makes them much more dangerous and, thus, the way they are treated should account for this important difference.9TailsFox wrote...
Like Cullen : "Mages are not people like you and me Hawke" yes he is shining example of good templar. I agree on Gregoir at least he is nice templar.
But that doesn't imply they are being denied a personhood and Cullen has never abused anyone.
People seem to forget that Tevinter Imperium ruled Thedas for millenias just fine. Magister ruled continent didn´t implode because of magic.
No, it just allowed continent wide slavery and human sacrifice. Happy times.
#147
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 02:23
Xilizhra
-
- Members
- 30 873 messages
Cultural issues that have nothing to do with magic. The point is that it wasn't destroyed by abomination plagues or anything of that kind, even with their demonology practices.billy the squid wrote...
Ukki wrote...
MisterJB wrote...
But it's true. Mages and not people like Cullen and non-mage Hawke. Their magic makes them much more dangerous and, thus, the way they are treated should account for this important difference.9TailsFox wrote...
Like Cullen : "Mages are not people like you and me Hawke" yes he is shining example of good templar. I agree on Gregoir at least he is nice templar.
But that doesn't imply they are being denied a personhood and Cullen has never abused anyone.
People seem to forget that Tevinter Imperium ruled Thedas for millenias just fine. Magister ruled continent didn´t implode because of magic.
No, it just allowed continent wide slavery and human sacrifice. Happy times.
#148
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 02:24
IanPolaris
-
- Members
- 9 650 messages
billy the squid wrote...
Ukki wrote...
MisterJB wrote...
But it's true. Mages and not people like Cullen and non-mage Hawke. Their magic makes them much more dangerous and, thus, the way they are treated should account for this important difference.9TailsFox wrote...
Like Cullen : "Mages are not people like you and me Hawke" yes he is shining example of good templar. I agree on Gregoir at least he is nice templar.
But that doesn't imply they are being denied a personhood and Cullen has never abused anyone.
People seem to forget that Tevinter Imperium ruled Thedas for millenias just fine. Magister ruled continent didn´t implode because of magic.
No, it just allowed continent wide slavery and human sacrifice. Happy times.
Tevinter didn't care a bit about what we'd call human rights. That doesn't mean that this would be true for all societies that openly accept magic and indeed we know that it isn't. The point is that we know that mages and mundanes can exist side by side without the civilization becoming a smoking crater.
-Polaris
Edit PS: Ninjaed by Xil.
Modifié par IanPolaris, 10 juin 2013 - 02:24 .
#149
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 02:24
MisterJB
-
- Members
- 15 583 messages
No, it just enabled widespread, legal slavery and the sacrifice of human lives for the flimsiest of reasons.Ukki wrote...
People seem to forget that Tevinter Imperium ruled Thedas for millenias just fine. Magister ruled continent didn´t implode because of magic.
Makes you wonder how could anyone fear magic. It boggles the mind, really.
#150
Posté 10 juin 2013 - 02:26
IanPolaris
-
- Members
- 9 650 messages
MisterJB wrote...
No, it just enabled widespread, legal slavery and the sacrifice of human lives for the flimsiest of reasons.Ukki wrote...
People seem to forget that Tevinter Imperium ruled Thedas for millenias just fine. Magister ruled continent didn´t implode because of magic.
Makes you wonder how could anyone fear magic. It boggles the mind, really.
Sure because a long standing institutional memory (esp in the Chantry) that automatically equates "Mages" to "Tevinter" and we see it a lot. That doesn't mean that it's logical or correct (and I'd say it's neither).
-Polaris
