1799 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Xilizhra wrote...

Of course you're ignoring that Mary Kirby said that Dalish elves don't live longer than city elves.

Did she say that city elves don't live longer than humans?

Yes. She said. "All races have aproximately the same lifespan" but Qunari society has more advanced sanitation technology so they live slightly longer.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 04 juillet 2013 - 07:10 .

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Of course you're ignoring that Mary Kirby said that Dalish elves don't live longer than city elves.

Did she say that city elves don't live longer than humans?

Yes. She said. "All races have aproximately the same lifespan" but Qunari society has more advanced sanitation technology so they live slightly longer. 

So we should ignore Gaider's comments about the longevity of the Dalish and two Dragon Age games because of one single post by Kirby?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Should we ignore Kirby's comments about the dalish because of a single (and somewhat vaguer) comment from Gaider?

If we both have dev comments to back up a position, why should one automatically cancel the other?

I'll admit it's confusing, but Kirby's post is more recent. One could make a case that gives it more weight when speaking to the writers' intention. I don't think it should just be dismissed out of hand any more than Gaiders'.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 04 juillet 2013 - 07:32 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't trust either but thing im certain that their lives both city and dalish are very short when my chaotic evil warden visit them:lol:

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 04 juillet 2013 - 07:41 .

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Should we ignore Kirby's comments about the dalish because of a single (and somewhat vaguer) comment from Gaider?

If we both have dev comments to back up a position, why should one automatically cancel the other?

I'll admit it's confusing, but Kirby's post is more recent. One could make a case that gives it more weight when speaking to the writers' intention. I don't think it should just be dismissed out of hand any more than Gaiders'. 

Gaider explicitly said Dalish elves live longer. Dalish characters address the longevity of some of the elves in the clans. Ilen talks about his long-lived father, who fought the Clayne. Should I ignore two Dragon Age games for one single post by Kirby?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Kirby explicitly said that Dalish don't live longer than city elves or anyone else. Gaider was more ambiguous. He said "the longer they seem to live" implying it might just be a dalish perspective on what was happening. If you're going to ignore one of the devs, then it's arbitrary which one you pick.

The comments from Dragon Age origins could just as easily be an oversight or a holdover from earlier ideas that weren't supposed to be in the final game, like Shale being from Redcliff. I don't remember any from the second game. The Dalish Origin also includes a bug where Tamlen mentions that the PC was supposed to be assisting Master Varathorn that day, who is from another clan.

Zathrien's clan made a big deal out of the fact that he was 300 years old. I have serious doubts that Ilen's father was supposed to have been there 700 years ago.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 04 juillet 2013 - 08:20 .

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Kirby explicitly said that Dalish don't live longer than city elves or anyone else. Gaider was more ambiguous. He said "the longer they seem to live" implying it might just be the dalish perspective. If you're going to ignore one of the devs, then it's arbitrary which one you pick.

Gaider said it seemed the Dalish live longer the more generations they lived away from humans. He was certainly ambiguous as to why the Dalish lived longer, but not to the simple fact that they lived longer than their counterparts in the Alienage. And it's not simply a comment from one developer that contradicts the comments from another developer, but two Dragon Age games. 

As Gaider said: "Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all." I don't see any ambiguity about the fact that the Dalsh live longer in his statement, only in the reason as to why the Dalish elves live longer, while their Alienage counterparts don't.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The comments from Dragon Age origins could just as easily be an oversight or a holdover from earlier ideas that weren't supposed to be in the final game. I don't remember any from the second game. The Dalish Origin also includes a bug where Tamlen mentions that the PC was supposed to be assisting Master Varathorn that day, who is from another clan.

There's also a bug in Dragon Age II where Bethany says her father died from the Blight, but that doesn't make all the information in the narrative inaccurate. I'm addressing that we have Dalish characters noting the longevity of some of their members, as well as a comment from a developer that supports this, while I'm disinclined to believe that Kirby is correct when their comments openly contradict two games and another developer. It's more likely that Kirby simply make a mistake; she is human, after all.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Zathrien's clan made a big deal out of the fact that he was 300 years old. I have serious doubts that Ilen's father was supposed to have been there 700 years ago.

Ilen and his father weren't members of Zathrian's clan; they were specifically members of the Sabrae clan, and even Zathrian's own clan notes the longevity of some other elves.

[ames4u]

bleetman wrote...

I stand firmly with Team Screw Them Both I'm Going Home.

I second this.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider said it seemed the Dalish live longer the more generations they lived away from humans. He was certainly ambiguous as to why the Dalish lived longer, but not to the simple fact that they lived longer than their counterparts in the Alienage. And it's not simply a comment from one developer that contradicts the comments from another developer, but two Dragon Age games. 

As Gaider said: "Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all." I don't see any ambiguity about the fact that the Dalsh live longer in his statement, only in the reason as to why the Dalish elves live longer, while their Alienage counterparts don't.

He said they "tend" to live longer. Which sounds like on average they do, but not always. Which implies that the range of dalish lifespans is close enough to the city elves' to overlap. So if it isn't so vast it could just be what the Dalish think is happening. And he mentioned the longer they "seem" to live. Both of which are deliberately vague terms.

And unless you can name examples from Dragon Age 2, Mary Kirby's post doesn't contradict both games, just one.

LobselVith8 wrote...
There's also a bug in Dragon Age II where Bethany says her father died from the Blight, but that doesn't make all the information in the narrative inaccurate. I'm addressing that we have Dalish characters noting the longevity of some of their members, as well as a comment from a developer that supports this, while I'm disinclined to believe that Kirby is correct when their comments openly contradict two games and another developer. It's more likely that Kirby simply make a mistake; she is human, after all.

Ilen and his father weren't members of Zathrian's clan; they were specifically members of the Sabrae clan, and even Zathrian's own clan notes the longevity of some other elves.

No but it does indicate that not evey comment made by a character in game is immune from inaccuracies. Zathrien was an exceptional character but we know why he lived as long as he did. To his clan he was a big deal, but the Sabrae Clan doesn't seem as impressed with Ilen's father even though it sounds like he was around for the fall of the Dales. Lanaya doesn't mention any specific examples other than Zathrien.

I suppopse the truth is it would be simpler to get an explanation of one or both of them because there is a discrepancy, but I have a feeling we won't get one. I remember one time Gaider (or one of the devs) refused to explain whether the lyrics of the spirits' rhymes in the alienage orphange were a mistake or not.

[ames4u]

9TailsFox wrote...

Lysander wrote...

I don't support either side, the problem is that the people of Thedas are so afraid of mages they'll never really allow them to roam freely, nor should they because every mage is a potential for danger.
I don't think there's a peaceful solution, what with all the fear and the desire for power. The war was inevitable, and if there really isn't a peaceful solution - or some world changing event (Sandel) - then I support the Templars, not the fanatic ones that want to kill/turn tranquill all mages, the sane ones that just want peace, like Cullen or Gregoir

Like Cullen : "Mages are not people like you and me Hawke" yes he is shining example of good templar. I agree on Gregoir at least he is nice templar.

It's especially entertaining if you got the ending where Cullen goes completely batsh*t and kills multiple apprentices in the Fereldan Circle. It made for a very amusing and irritating discussion when he inexplicably showed up in DA2.

[ames4u]

* Edited due to double post. Sorry!

Modifié par ames4u, 04 juillet 2013 - 10:38 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
 The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live.

Which means little.
They could live slightly longer because of their nomadic lifestyle, or it could be...blood magic rituals.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live.  

Which means little.
They could live slightly longer because of their nomadic lifestyle, or it could be...blood magic rituals. 

Or it could be because the elves were living away from humans, suggesting there's some truth to their lore about the loss of their immortality.

[Mykel54]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live.  

Which means little.
They could live slightly longer because of their nomadic lifestyle, or it could be...blood magic rituals. 

Or it could be because the elves were living away from humans, suggesting there's some truth to their lore about the loss of their immortality.

Or it could be that city elves are poor and live in the most insalubre part of the city.

Or maybe the dalish lore is correct, but then the chantry lore is correct too. And king Korin was the last king of Arlathan.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live.  

Which means little.
They could live slightly longer because of their nomadic lifestyle, or it could be...blood magic rituals. 

Or it could be because the elves were living away from humans, suggesting there's some truth to their lore about the loss of their immortality.

Elves living longer when away from humans does not say WHY that is so.
What if the elves of old lives so long only becuase their keepers/elders used powerfull blood magic rituals that affected entire clans?

So far the only type of magic we've seen that can extend ones life is blood magic.
From a biological standpoint, proximity ot huimans should have no bearing on the longevity of any organism, especialyl ntoa sudden, rapid change.

So, if hte elves DID live longer before, the only reasonable reason for that could be magic.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Or it could be because the elves were living away from humans, suggesting there's some truth to their lore about the loss of their immortality.

Elves living longer when away from humans does not say WHY that is so.
What if the elves of old lives so long only becuase their keepers/elders used powerfull blood magic rituals that affected entire clans?

So far the only type of magic we've seen that can extend ones life is blood magic.
From a biological standpoint, proximity ot huimans should have no bearing on the longevity of any organism, especialyl ntoa sudden, rapid change.

So, if hte elves DID live longer before, the only reasonable reason for that could be magic.

We don't know why proximity to humans would have caused the ancient elves to lose their magic and their immortality - that's the point. If the elven lore is accurate, it's a mystery. The same as why humans and elves have human children.

[BlueMagitek]

Or, we can trust Mary Kirby, who straight up said there wasn't a major difference in lifespan.

Though I'm sure you can talk about life expectancy all you like.

[Airdeen]

As for the topic of the thread, personally I don't support either the templars or the mages, I'm somewhere in between on the issue. I think some form of control is necessary to avoid the mages gaining too much power, but I also don't think that what the templars have been doing is working very well. The heavy restrictions only work to back the mages into a corner, which in turn makes them into exactly what the templars are supposed to avoid. I'm actually thinking someone or other has created this conflict on purpose in order to shift the balance of power (quite possibly the templars/seekers).

I think the mages should get a lot more freedom than they had in the circles, but not be completely free either. Not that I've thought up any good solutions myself, I'll just wait and see what happens in the game.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Or, we can trust Mary Kirby, who straight up said there wasn't a major difference in lifespan.

Though I'm sure you can talk about life expectancy all you like.

Kirby contradicts Gaider and two Dragon Age games. Unless they rectonned the longevity of the Dalish, she was mistaken. She is human, after all. We all make mistakes.

[Cigne]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Or, we can trust Mary Kirby, who straight up said there wasn't a major difference in lifespan.

Though I'm sure you can talk about life expectancy all you like.

Kirby contradicts Gaider and two Dragon Age games. Unless they rectonned the longevity of the Dalish, she was mistaken. She is human, after all. We all make mistakes.

Says the Elf.

My first playthrough, I will fall in the middle; the Circle is not satisfactory, but I believe Mages need oversight. I do approach the issue giving more credence to lore than gameplay, in that I give more weight to the damage a mage abomination can do than is suggested by gameplay. So I will probably fall into the role of negotiator; and I do not expect it to end well.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kirby contradicts Gaider and two Dragon Age games. Unless they rectonned the longevity of the Dalish, she was mistaken. She is human, after all. We all make mistakes.

There are only 2 examples of super long lived Dalish; one is blood magic, the other is most likely an oversight.

If not an oversight, almost certainly a Dales magical ritual.

[PinkysPain]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
The comments from Dragon Age origins could just as easily be an oversight or a holdover from earlier ideas that weren't supposed to be in the final game, like Shale being from Redcliff.

Needless retconning is poor form ...

Modifié par PinkysPain, 06 juillet 2013 - 08:11 .

[Luiren]

Liskat wrote...

As for the topic of the thread, personally I don't support either the templars or the mages, I'm somewhere in between on the issue. I think some form of control is necessary to avoid the mages gaining too much power, but I also don't think that what the templars have been doing is working very well. The heavy restrictions only work to back the mages into a corner, which in turn makes them into exactly what the templars are supposed to avoid. I'm actually thinking someone or other has created this conflict on purpose in order to shift the balance of power (quite possibly the templars/seekers).

I think the mages should get a lot more freedom than they had in the circles, but not be completely free either. Not that I've thought up any good solutions myself, I'll just wait and see what happens in the game.

A very neutral point of view. I like it.


To everyone else: Let's stay on topic please. I don't want this thread to be locked down.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

PinkysPain wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
The comments from Dragon Age origins could just as easily be an oversight or a holdover from earlier ideas that weren't supposed to be in the final game, like Shale being from Redcliff.

Needless retconning is poor form ...

It's not really retconing if it was an oversight to begin with.

[The Hierophant]

@LobselVith8 - DG's responses from that interview are not iron clad as my earlier post unwittingly showed that his description on the Inquisition's history was slightly altered in WoT and possibly DAI.

In case you want to know the Inquisition response is 7 responses above the Dalish lifespan comment you reference.