1799 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, look at it this way. By not assisting in the Blight, the Dales were condoning the rape and cannabalism of the human, dwarvern and (eventually) elven people.

So, yes. 

The elves in the kingdom of the Dales simply didn't help an imperialistic empire that threatened their culture, religion, and way of life. The entire reason Emperor Drakon couldn't conquer the Free Marches is because of the issues that he faced with the Dales to the south.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, look at it this way. By not assisting in the Blight, the Dales were condoning the rape and cannabalism of the human, dwarvern and (eventually) elven people.

So, yes. 

The elves in the kingdom of the Dales simply didn't help an imperialistic empire that threatened their culture, religion, and way of life. The entire reason Emperor Drakon couldn't conquer the Free Marches is because of the issues that he faced with the Dales to the south.

The Dalish weren't just simply not helping Orlais. They were not helping humanity in its entirety, nor the Dwarves. As such, they were standing idly by, while the entire human and dwarven races faced genocide. So yes, that does justify a bit of bad blood between the races.

[Hellion Rex]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, look at it this way. By not assisting in the Blight, the Dales were condoning the rape and cannabalism of the human, dwarvern and (eventually) elven people.

So, yes. [/quote]

The elves in the kingdom of the Dales simply didn't help an imperialistic empire that threatened their culture, religion, and way of life. The entire reason Emperor Drakon couldn't conquer the Free Marches is because of the issues that he faced with the Dales to the south.[/quote]
The Dalish weren't just simply not helping Orlais. They were not helping humanity in its entirety, nor the Dwarves. As such, they were standing idly by, while the entire human and dwarven races faced genocide. So yes, that does justify a bit of bad blood between the races.[/quote]
Genocide is a little more than "bad blood". 

[/quote]

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 juillet 2013 - 07:11 .

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves in the kingdom of the Dales simply didn't help an imperialistic empire that threatened their culture, religion, and way of life. The entire reason Emperor Drakon couldn't conquer the Free Marches is because of the issues that he faced with the Dales to the south.

The Dales did not assist any nation agains tthe Blight.  On the other hand, even Orlais and Tevinter (who certainly had more issues than the Dales and Orlais did) banded together to defeat the Darkspawn.

You know what was also a threat to the Dales' culture, religion & way of life?  The legion of Darkspawn. 

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves in the kingdom of the Dales simply didn't help an imperialistic empire that threatened their culture, religion, and way of life. The entire reason Emperor Drakon couldn't conquer the Free Marches is because of the issues that he faced with the Dales to the south.

The Dalish weren't just simply not helping Orlais. They were not helping humanity in its entirety, nor the Dwarves. As such, they were standing idly by, while the entire human and dwarven races faced genocide. So yes, that does justify a bit of bad blood between the races. 

I didn't realize one neighboring empire represented the whole of humanity. And we know Dalish fought darkspawn in the Anderfels. We don't know all the details. All you can condemn the elves for is refusing to help an empire that was conquering its neighbors since its inception under Kordillus Drakon.

[dragonflight288]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves in the kingdom of the Dales simply didn't help an imperialistic empire that threatened their culture, religion, and way of life. The entire reason Emperor Drakon couldn't conquer the Free Marches is because of the issues that he faced with the Dales to the south.

The Dalish weren't just simply not helping Orlais. They were not helping humanity in its entirety, nor the Dwarves. As such, they were standing idly by, while the entire human and dwarven races faced genocide. So yes, that does justify a bit of bad blood between the races. 

I didn't realize one neighboring empire represented the whole of humanity. And we know Dalish fought darkspawn in the Anderfels. We don't know all the details. All you can condemn the elves for is refusing to help an empire that was conquering its neighbors since its inception under Kordillus Drakon.

And Orlais was an empire that had a history of going to the aid of other countries suffering from a blight, and then never leaving when the blight is over, occupying and then conquering it while that country is weak.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, look at it this way. By not assisting in the Blight, the Dales were condoning the rape and cannabalism of the human, dwarvern and (eventually) elven people.

So, yes. 

The elves in the kingdom of the Dales simply didn't help an imperialistic empire that threatened their culture, religion, and way of life. The entire reason Emperor Drakon couldn't conquer the Free Marches is because of the issues that he faced with the Dales to the south.

What? So allowing genocide of Orlesians is morally acceptable because they are citizens of an empire?

dragonflight288 wrote...

And Orlais was an empire that had a history of going to the aid of other countries suffering from a blight, and then never leaving when the blight is over, occupying and
then conquering it while that country is weak.

That was during the Third Blight. This was during the Second Blight.

I know some people love to imagine Orlais are always the bad guys and the elves are always the heroes, but that's most certainly not the case during the Second Blight.

Emperor Drakon was the hero of that story. He saved many lives in many nations. His armies made the difference fighting the darkspawn throughout Thedas during the Second Blight. The elves were so indifferent to the suffering of the humans they let an entire city nearby burn without caring to help at all. They were the villains.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 juillet 2013 - 02:10 .

[dragonflight288]

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, look at it this way. By not assisting in the Blight, the Dales were condoning the rape and cannabalism of the human, dwarvern and (eventually) elven people.

So, yes. [/quote]

The elves in the kingdom of the Dales simply didn't help an imperialistic empire that threatened their culture, religion, and way of life. The entire reason Emperor Drakon couldn't conquer the Free Marches is because of the issues that he faced with the Dales to the south.[/quote]

What? So allowing genocide of Orlesians is morally acceptable because they are citizens of an empire?[/quote]

It's possible there's a lot more there than is revealed in the codexes. The Dalish pass their lore down by word of mouth, and the Chantry wouldn't ever publish anything bad about Orlais or anything good about the Dalish Heretics if there was something to lose.

History is written by the victors, and there may be more to it. The Dalish may have been fighting darkspawn on other fronts and couldn't face the bulk of the horde in Orlais, or maybe the Dalish were having their own civil war, or maybe the codex is correct.

Until more is given, all we have is Orlais's crappy reputation, Dalish arrogance and intense desire for isolation from humanity, a great deal of racial tension, and gamer opinion.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

And Orlais was an empire that had a history of going to the aid of other countries suffering from a blight, and then never leaving when the blight is over, occupying and
then conquering it while that country is weak.

[/quote]

That was during the Third Blight. This was during the Second Blight.

I know some people love to imagine Orlais are always the bad guys and the elves are always the heroes, but that's most certainly not the case during the Second Blight.

Emperor Drakon was the hero of that story. He saved many lives in many nations. His armies made the difference fighting the darkspawn throughout Thedas during the Second Blight. The elves were so indifferent to the suffering of the humans they let an entire city nearby burn without caring to help at all. They were the villains.



[/quote][/quote]

And....you have a source that says that specifically? You can point out exactly what the Dalish were doing and why they were doing it during the second blight? 

I concede your point about the third blight as I had blights mixed up. But we honestly don't know if the Dalish had their own problems. we only know the orlesian and chantry's version of events. There's two sides to every story. For all we know, the Orlesians may have been planning to invade the Dales when the blight happened, and the dalish decided to stay out of it out of self-preservation because of those racial tensions.

Or maybe the Dalish were just utterly heartless buzzards and wanted the shemlen to die.

I don't have an opinion one way or another due to a lack of facts and evidence. To quote Sherlock Holmes,

"It is a gross mistake to theorize before we have facts. Inevitably we try to twist the facts to fit our theories rather than twist our theories to fit the facts. "

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The World of Thedas says simply that "The elves of the Dales do nothing as darkspawn nearly destroy the nearby Orlesian City of Montismmard." The section on the history of the Second Blight does not mention any major battles in the Dales. There is almost no mention of elves fighting darkspawn at all during the Divine Age, only that they were unhelpful.

I don't think we're given much insight into their motives. Although Haren Paival in the Dalish Origin seems to vaguely allude to the fact that they simply didn't want to endanger elven lives to save humans. "Over time the human kingdoms grew cold towards the Dales, because we would not worship their gods, and because we put our people first."

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
the Chantry wouldn't ever publish anything bad about Orlais or anything good about the Dalish Heretics if there was something to lose.

Not exactly true. I distinctly remember a fereldan priest portraying the orlesian occupation quite negativelly. You might not see an orlesian Mother writing badly about Orlais but I doubt that if you were to question a nevarran Mother, they would have good things to say and I also doubt the Divine actually can censor such things even if she wished.

And....you have a source that says that specifically? You can point out exactly what the Dalish were doing and why they were doing it during the second blight? 

I also remember an elven storyteller who said that "humans resented we put our people first".
This sounds very much like a corroboration of the human claim that the elves just stood by as the darkspawn butchered an entire city (which the "dreaded" Drakon saved, BTW)

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 juillet 2013 - 04:06 .

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote....

The World of Thedas says simply that "The elves of the Dales do nothing as darkspawn nearly destroy the nearby Orlesian City of Montismmard." The section on the history of the Second Blight does not mention any major battles in the Dales. There is almost no mention of elves fighting darkspawn at all during the Divine Age, only that they were unhelpful.

I don't think we're given much insight into their motives. Although Haren Paival in the Dalish Origin seems to vaguely allude to the fact that they simply didn't want to endanger elven lives to save humans. "Over time the human kingdoms grew cold towards the Dales, because we would not worship their gods, and because we put our people first."

MisterJB wrote....


I also remember an elven storyteller who said that "humans resented we put our people first".
This sounds very much like a corroboration of the human claim that the elves just stood by as the darkspawn butchered an entire city (which the "dreaded" Drakon saved, BTW)

Hmm. There is a bit of corroboration there, tis true.

So evidence as it stands now suggests that at the time of the 2nd blight, the Dalish were behaving in a manner that can garner a great deal of resentment, and after it, the Orlesians started doing things that turned them into tyrants and they too garnered a lot of resentment and are considered by many of those thy conquered to be the villains.

Long-story short, every side has dirty laundry at different times in their history that paints them negatively. Dalish are hardly sympathetic based on the evidence during the 2nd blight, the orlesians are not sympathetic from the 3rd blight onward, and the chantry is completely open to interpretation based on whether you believe what they say or not about mages, Andraste, or anything else that may or may not be relevant, and mages are still debated to this day.

In conclusion, Bioware has done a successful job making each group sympathetic to a portion of their audience, and we the gamers can interpret as we choose, and decide for ourselves what will happen come Inquisition. Then we can flame each other over it. lol.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Who started it is unclear.

What is known is that the Dalish marches on Orlais, reached the capital and then half the TheDas rallied nad kicked their behinds.
Did the Chantry have the right to defend itself? Most certanly it did, altough I know some will say no.
Did it have control over the armeis involved in the Exhalted March? Highly unlikely. Kings don't just give control over their armies. Does that mean that any attrocitiy commited by an army during a March is the Chanttries fault? Well, the Chantry-haters would like to belive so.

I like the belive the Chantry protected the elves in the end. Without the Alianages, they would have been wiped out.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There is one new piece of information that paints the Exalted March of the Dales in a somewhat different light. According to The World of the Thedas, Orlais was the only nation to participate in the Exalted March. So the entire war was essentially the Orlesians rallying to defeat the Elves after they captured Montismmard and sacked Val Royoux, with the boost of religious fever for the cause from the Chantry.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Only Orlais?
And here I though the Dales were a big and mighty kingdom and it took half of TheDas to bring them down.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The History of the Exalted Marches section explicitly says "Orlais was the only nation to send troops." Also while I'm not sure, I think Halamshiral may have been the only city in the Dales at the time.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 juillet 2013 - 08:19 .

[Han Shot First]

The Templars are a militant order or religious extremists oppressing a class of people for simply being born with certain abilities.

The Mages are a bunch of whiny emos who fail to recognize that society has some legitimate concerns regarding their abilities, and who seemingly confirm every worst fear and stereotype about them by continually tinkering with blood magic.

I don't like either of them.

[MisterJB]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Only Orlais?
And here I though the Dales were a big and mighty kingdom and it took half of TheDas to bring them down.

She is right, it does says that. I was under the same impression as you. Something started the war; Orlais marched to Red Crossing and got defeated. The elves marched into Val-Royeaux and took it after which, the Divine called for assistance and the other Andrastian countries rallied against the Dales.

Instead, while the elves celebrated the victory on Val-Royeaux:


Orlais was like this:


The elves couldn't even take on one nation that had been weakened after 90 years of fending off a Blight. Humans rule, elves drool.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 juillet 2013 - 01:28 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, to be fair, after the Exalted March was called on the Dales, the Chantry did reinforce Orlais, which would mean the army of Templars joined the fray aswell. But yes, bottom line is that the Dales was far weaker than we previously thought.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I didn't realize one neighboring empire represented the whole of humanity. And we know Dalish fought darkspawn in the Anderfels. We don't know all the details. All you can condemn the elves for is refusing to help an empire that was conquering its neighbors since its inception under Kordillus Drakon.

Given that one nation is Orlais one of if not the most powerful and large county in Thedas.... ya its destruction would not only weaken all of Thedas (including the elves) but strengthen the blight.

And yet what does it say about those elves? Tevintir, Orlais, Dwarves etc... are not exactly the best of friends but put that old animosity aside to do something good for the all.

We know your chosen people can do no wrong and its always some big mean bully picking on them. Always the victim never needing to take any responsibility for their actions.

And without I doubt I know your response if things were reversed. If the Dales were the first to hit and no one wanted to help or believe the Elves because they have been pretty bad neighbors in their own right and wanted to be isolated.

[Bardox9]

Granted the Assault on the DAles has nothing to do with the OP, but here is my 2 cents....

During the second blight the Elves refused to aid Orlais remaining "neutral and unhelpful" Watching the country get consumed from a far. Naturally this was a point of tension after the blight was ended. Didn't help matters when the Chantry openly objected to worship of the Elven gods spreading rumors of human sacrifice which inflicted fear and hatred of elves among the human masses.

The chantry sent missionaries to the dales as they do with every nation trying to spread the chant of light. This raised tensions even further resulting in the elves kicking the missionaries out of the dales. Hard to imagine they went willingly... In 2:10 Glory, the elves sacked the human city Montsimmard which was very close to Val Royeaux. The divine called for a holy war against the dales which became the Exalted March. Elven forces eventually over took Val Royeaux and pushed well into human lands, but when Halamshiral, the captial of the Dales was conquered the elven forces were soon crushed. The Orlesians "Appropiated" the Dales and the elves that accepted the chant were segregatedinto the slums of human cities which became the alienage. Those that refused to accept the chant became the dalish and now live in exhile.

The Elves cast the first stone, but the Orlesians didn't just defeat the elves. They annihalted their culture. The Elves started the war, but the Orlesians took things too far in the defeat of their enemy. The dalish, naturally, hate humans for their crushing defeat and the clan story tellers keep that hatred alive through their... colorful interpretation of their history while the few humans that care about that war see themselves as completely justified in the way things turned out.

It wasn't the whole of humanity that was threatened by the Elves, it was just Orlais. The Elves lost. End of story. Can we get back to the war at hand between templars, seekers, the circle, and rogue mages please.

Modifié par Bardox9, 11 juillet 2013 - 06:16 .

[hanssolon]

I would always stand by the mages as I have been so towards their cause since Origins. Oh wait, I havce always picked the mage class in both games so far and have picked an mage romance too.

[AstraDrakkar]

I'm with Varric. I'm sick of templars and mages.

[cjones91]

I'm neutral but if I'm forced to pick a side then I'll go with the mages.

[cjones91]

Double Post.

Modifié par cjones91, 12 juillet 2013 - 01:10 .

[Bardox9]

cjones91 wrote...

I'm neutral but if I'm forced to pick a side then I'll go with the mages.

Ah yes, but which mages? Those that rebelled or those still loyal to the circle? Same question for those who support the templars. Do you support the templars that have split from the chantry or those who remain? This war has split the two groups into four. Possibly more. Not to mention the Wardens. Who knows what role they will play.