1799 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

Bardox9 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I'm neutral but if I'm forced to pick a side then I'll go with the mages.

Ah yes, but which mages? Those that rebelled or those still loyal to the circle? Same question for those who support the templars. Do you support the templars that have split from the chantry or those who remain? This war has split the two groups into four. Possibly more. Not to mention the Wardens. Who knows what role they will play.

The non crazy ones who simply want to live outside the Circle.Of course there are some in the Mage Rebellion like Adrian who I would kill in a heart beat but the rest of them simply wanted more rights.

[Nynaeve1981]

Its the chantry that is the issue. They want total control so they make sure their Templars are addicts. They make the Templars be the bad guys while they pretend to be neutral and love all the makers children.
Mages do need to be watched but not jailed. Any group of people or person with power needs checks and balances. So I think the Templars need to separate from the chantry and have a Templar that knows their duty and does not abuse it to lead them. Someone like Cullen or Evangeline(Asunder). Then the Templar order needs a cleansing of mage haters, abusers and even sympathizers(because Ser Thrask was wrong also). Mages have their children taken, are abused and can be locked up for nothing. A rebellion was needed to put things right.
Anders was extreme but he is human. What human has ever been hurt or made to feel helpless that wasn't angry and wanted to do something about it. All he did was take back what was taken from him and others. Maybe he killed the wrong people, innocent people. Innocent people do die in war to accomplish goals.

[Bardox9]

cjones91 wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I'm neutral but if I'm forced to pick a side then I'll go with the mages.

Ah yes, but which mages? Those that rebelled or those still loyal to the circle? Same question for those who support the templars. Do you support the templars that have split from the chantry or those who remain? This war has split the two groups into four. Possibly more. Not to mention the Wardens. Who knows what role they will play.

The non crazy ones who simply want to live outside the Circle.Of course there are some in the Mage Rebellion like Adrian who I would kill in a heart beat but the rest of them simply wanted more rights.

This is why I say i support the circle instead of the mages or templars. The circle has it's problems, but for everyone involved it is the best option. Mages learn to master their powers away from the mobs that fear them and should they fall prey to demons or the "crazy" ones, the templars are there to... neutralize the threat. The Ferelden Circle of Magi is how it is suppose to work. The Kirkwall Circle of Magi is what happens when a mad woman is in charge and fills her ranks with bigots and sadists.

Modifié par Bardox9, 12 juillet 2013 - 02:37 .

[cjones91]

Nynaeve1981 wrote...

Its the chantry that is the issue. They want total control so they make sure their Templars are addicts. They make the Templars be the bad guys while they pretend to be neutral and love all the makers children.
Mages do need to be watched but not jailed. Any group of people or person with power needs checks and balances. So I think the Templars need to separate from the chantry and have a Templar that knows their duty and does not abuse it to lead them. Someone like Cullen or Evangeline(Asunder). Then the Templar order needs a cleansing of mage haters, abusers and even sympathizers(because Ser Thrask was wrong also). Mages have their children taken, are abused and can be locked up for nothing. A rebellion was needed to put things right.
Anders was extreme but he is human. What human has ever been hurt or made to feel helpless that wasn't angry and wanted to do something about it. All he did was take back what was taken from him and others. Maybe he killed the wrong people, innocent people. Innocent people do die in war to accomplish goals.

 Yeah the Chantry needs to go because it's their fault things have escalated to this point.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

My inner bomb throwing revolutionary says "Mages"

My logical side says "Some kind of long drawn out compromise".

Since my inner bomb throwing revolutionary is packing and my logical side isn't I'm going with the mages.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 12 juillet 2013 - 03:18 .

[Bardox9]

cjones91 wrote...

Nynaeve1981 wrote...

Its the chantry that is the issue. They want total control so they make sure their Templars are addicts. They make the Templars be the bad guys while they pretend to be neutral and love all the makers children.
Mages do need to be watched but not jailed. Any group of people or person with power needs checks and balances. So I think the Templars need to separate from the chantry and have a Templar that knows their duty and does not abuse it to lead them. Someone like Cullen or Evangeline(Asunder). Then the Templar order needs a cleansing of mage haters, abusers and even sympathizers(because Ser Thrask was wrong also). Mages have their children taken, are abused and can be locked up for nothing. A rebellion was needed to put things right.
Anders was extreme but he is human. What human has ever been hurt or made to feel helpless that wasn't angry and wanted to do something about it. All he did was take back what was taken from him and others. Maybe he killed the wrong people, innocent people. Innocent people do die in war to accomplish goals.

 Yeah the Chantry needs to go because it's their fault things have escalated to this point.

The Chantry has a place... not the one it currently holds, but still... It needs to be knocked down a few pegs. Not dissolved. My only problem is their constant inaction. The grand clerics are always ready to tell others what to do while refusing do to anything themselves.

[cjones91]

Bardox9 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Nynaeve1981 wrote...

Its the chantry that is the issue. They want total control so they make sure their Templars are addicts. They make the Templars be the bad guys while they pretend to be neutral and love all the makers children.
Mages do need to be watched but not jailed. Any group of people or person with power needs checks and balances. So I think the Templars need to separate from the chantry and have a Templar that knows their duty and does not abuse it to lead them. Someone like Cullen or Evangeline(Asunder). Then the Templar order needs a cleansing of mage haters, abusers and even sympathizers(because Ser Thrask was wrong also). Mages have their children taken, are abused and can be locked up for nothing. A rebellion was needed to put things right.
Anders was extreme but he is human. What human has ever been hurt or made to feel helpless that wasn't angry and wanted to do something about it. All he did was take back what was taken from him and others. Maybe he killed the wrong people, innocent people. Innocent people do die in war to accomplish goals.

 Yeah the Chantry needs to go because it's their fault things have escalated to this point.

The Chantry has a place... not the one it currently holds, but still... It needs to be knocked down a few pegs. Not dissolved. My only problem is their constant inaction. The grand clerics are always ready to tell others what to do while refusing do to anything themselves.

The Chantry is like the Roman Catholic Church,sooner or later it's going to collapse and hopefully the people of Thedas are better off for it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Pfft...what's with all of this "seculaity ftw" nonsense. Frak secualrity. It's in no way superior.

The Chantry is OK. We know for a fact that lyrium is not there to make tempalrs addicts, but to make tempalr powers work.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pfft...what's with all of this "seculaity ftw" nonsense. Frak secualrity. It's in no way superior.

The Chantry is OK. We know for a fact that lyrium is not there to make tempalrs addicts, but to make tempalr powers work.

Yep especially their prisons 1:03

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 12 juillet 2013 - 11:48 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why wouldn't ANYONE use lyrium to reinforce their prisons? <_<

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 12 juillet 2013 - 12:13 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why wouldn't ANYONE use lyrium to reinforce their prisons? <_<

You missed the point this is was directed to "chantry is ok"

[EmperorSahlertz]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why wouldn't ANYONE use lyrium to reinforce their prisons? <_<

You missed the point this is was directed to "chantry is ok"

Indeed... I don't get why it is a bad thing, that the Chantry reinforces their prisons, with magical Lyrium runes..
And if you meant that the Chantry prisons seems ike a bad place to be... Well woop-di-doo... Just look at Fort Drakon, which was just as bad, and was completely goveren by the Fereldan state... Prisons in Thedas are generally not nice places... So that the Chantry ones arent either, is not something you can vilify the Chantry with..

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 12 juillet 2013 - 12:56 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why wouldn't ANYONE use lyrium to reinforce their prisons? <_<

You missed the point this is was directed to "chantry is ok"

Indeed... I don't get why it is a bad thing, that the Chantry reinforces their prisons, with magical Lyrium runes..

Heh i don't know if you watch movie but hello they torture peoples there i don't know how you but organization who torture peoples is far away from ok and this isn't individual case but purpose of this prison.  

Wow so excuse if all peoples rape we can too and we are justified besides one word about Ferelden Arl Howe.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 12 juillet 2013 - 01:05 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why wouldn't ANYONE use lyrium to reinforce their prisons? <_<

You missed the point this is was directed to "chantry is ok"

Indeed... I don't get why it is a bad thing, that the Chantry reinforces their prisons, with magical Lyrium runes..

Heh i don't know if you watch movie but hello they torture peoples there i don't know how you but organization who torture peoples is far away from ok and this isn't individual case but purpose of this prison.  

Wow so excuse if all peoples rape we can too and we are justified besides one word about Ferelden Arl Howe.

No... But if all people rape, you can't blame Simon down the road for raping, if everyone else is. Then you ahve to turn the focus to everyone, instead of a single individual. And the same goes for the torture in Thedas. Since everyone is doing it, you can't hold it against the Chantry specifically. You hve to judge them all on the same standards. And while torture is despicable, Thedas obviously havn't advanced beyond it yet.

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why wouldn't ANYONE use lyrium to reinforce their prisons? <_<

You missed the point this is was directed to "chantry is ok"

Indeed... I don't get why it is a bad thing, that the Chantry reinforces their prisons, with magical Lyrium runes..

Heh i don't know if you watch movie but hello they torture peoples there i don't know how you but organization who torture peoples is far away from ok and this isn't individual case but purpose of this prison.  

Wow so excuse if all peoples rape we can too and we are justified besides one word about Ferelden Arl Howe.

No... But if all people rape, you can't blame Simon down the road for raping, if everyone else is. Then you ahve to turn the focus to everyone, instead of a single individual. And the same goes for the torture in Thedas. Since everyone is doing it, you can't hold it against the Chantry specifically. You hve to judge them all on the same standards. And while torture is despicable, Thedas obviously havn't advanced beyond it yet.

Not all torture peoples in Thedas i doubt that was allowed there are 2 possibilities they don't torture peoples in Ferelden just Howe do that , or they don't torture in Orlais if we can belive leliana song who is surprised they do that in Ferelden that's depends on that if leliana song is real.Yep i can blame simon because simon have own brain if everyone from my school attack one boy if i join them im that same guilty like rest of them.  

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 12 juillet 2013 - 01:30 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why wouldn't ANYONE use lyrium to reinforce their prisons? <_<

You missed the point this is was directed to "chantry is ok"

Indeed... I don't get why it is a bad thing, that the Chantry reinforces their prisons, with magical Lyrium runes..

Heh i don't know if you watch movie but hello they torture peoples there i don't know how you but organization who torture peoples is far away from ok and this isn't individual case but purpose of this prison.  

Wow so excuse if all peoples rape we can too and we are justified besides one word about Ferelden Arl Howe.

No... But if all people rape, you can't blame Simon down the road for raping, if everyone else is. Then you ahve to turn the focus to everyone, instead of a single individual. And the same goes for the torture in Thedas. Since everyone is doing it, you can't hold it against the Chantry specifically. You hve to judge them all on the same standards. And while torture is despicable, Thedas obviously havn't advanced beyond it yet.

Not all torture peoples in Thedas i doubt that was allowed there are 2 possibilities they don't torture peoples in Ferelden just Howe do that , or they don't torture in Orlais if we can belive leliana song who is surprised they do that in Ferelden that's depends since leliana song is real.Yep i can blame simon because simon have own brain if everyone from my school attack one boy if i jon them im that same guilty like rest of them.  

In a hypothetical world, where everyone rapes, then you CAN'T blame an individual in that world for doing, what is obviously socially acceptable in his world. You can begin to argue that the world in question in its entirety is morally inferior, and I wouldn't argue. But once you begin to single an individual out, you start to be dishonest in your judgements.
And Fort Drakon was not udner the control of Howe, but it still had a dungeon with torture chambers. And torture is widespread in all of Thedas, all the extra source material we got in the books and more, clearly shows, that Thedas is still in a state of society where they believe torture is a viable form of punishment and interrogation.

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why wouldn't ANYONE use lyrium to reinforce their prisons? <_<

You missed the point this is was directed to "chantry is ok"

Indeed... I don't get why it is a bad thing, that the Chantry reinforces their prisons, with magical Lyrium runes..

Heh i don't know if you watch movie but hello they torture peoples there i don't know how you but organization who torture peoples is far away from ok and this isn't individual case but purpose of this prison.  

Wow so excuse if all peoples rape we can too and we are justified besides one word about Ferelden Arl Howe.

No... But if all people rape, you can't blame Simon down the road for raping, if everyone else is. Then you ahve to turn the focus to everyone, instead of a single individual. And the same goes for the torture in Thedas. Since everyone is doing it, you can't hold it against the Chantry specifically. You hve to judge them all on the same standards. And while torture is despicable, Thedas obviously havn't advanced beyond it yet.

Not all torture peoples in Thedas i doubt that was allowed there are 2 possibilities they don't torture peoples in Ferelden just Howe do that , or they don't torture in Orlais if we can belive leliana song who is surprised they do that in Ferelden that's depends since leliana song is real.Yep i can blame simon because simon have own brain if everyone from my school attack one boy if i jon them im that same guilty like rest of them.  

In a hypothetical world, where everyone rapes, then you CAN'T blame an individual in that world for doing, what is obviously socially acceptable in his world. You can begin to argue that the world in question in its entirety is morally inferior, and I wouldn't argue. But once you begin to single an individual out, you start to be dishonest in your judgements.
And Fort Drakon was not udner the control of Howe, but it still had a dungeon with torture chambers. And torture is widespread in all of Thedas, all the extra source material we got in the books and more, clearly shows, that Thedas is still in a state of society where they believe torture is a viable form of punishment and interrogation.

http://dragonage.wik...i/Mother_Mallol
http://dragonage.wik...iki/Ser_Gilmore

You decide if you follow social rules even in our world are many peoples who don't give crap about society and their standards , even peoples after brainwashing leave qun and follow their own , nobody force you to jon cult it's you who decide that  you follow them or someone else or own rules.Empathy most of peoples have this fortunately. 

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pfft...what's with all of this "seculaity ftw" nonsense. Frak secualrity. It's in no way superior.

The Chantry is OK. We know for a fact that lyrium is not there to make tempalrs addicts, but to make tempalr powers work.

 The Chantry controls the surface lyrium trade and since taking lyrium is addicting the templars are basically under the Chantry's boot just like the mages.To be honest I would like to see the Chantry's power reduced even more by the time DA:Inquisition rolls around because I feel they have too much power as it is.

They have done alot of terrible things like destroy Andraste's allies and IMO twisted what she said about magic to gain total control of mages.They then use there power to destroy any other religion and forcibly convert people out of some belief that their religion is the only correct one to follow.

Modifié par cjones91, 12 juillet 2013 - 02:36 .

[Nynaeve1981]

Bardox9 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Nynaeve1981 wrote...

Its the chantry that is the issue. They want total control so they make sure their Templars are addicts. They make the Templars be the bad guys while they pretend to be neutral and love all the makers children.
Mages do need to be watched but not jailed. Any group of people or person with power needs checks and balances. So I think the Templars need to separate from the chantry and have a Templar that knows their duty and does not abuse it to lead them. Someone like Cullen or Evangeline(Asunder). Then the Templar order needs a cleansing of mage haters, abusers and even sympathizers(because Ser Thrask was wrong also). Mages have their children taken, are abused and can be locked up for nothing. A rebellion was needed to put things right.
Anders was extreme but he is human. What human has ever been hurt or made to feel helpless that wasn't angry and wanted to do something about it. All he did was take back what was taken from him and others. Maybe he killed the wrong people, innocent people. Innocent people do die in war to accomplish goals.

 Yeah the Chantry needs to go because it's their fault things have escalated to this point.

The Chantry has a place... not the one it currently holds, but still... It needs to be knocked down a few pegs. Not dissolved. My only problem is their constant inaction. The grand clerics are always ready to tell others what to do while refusing do to anything themselves.

I agree it has a place. Maybe helping widows and orphans. I just don't think it has a place jailing mages. Yeah, The inaction does bother me too. That's why Elthina getting blown to bits didn't really upset me. She had many chances to try to help the situation.

[Nynaeve1981]

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pfft...what's with all of this "seculaity ftw" nonsense. Frak secualrity. It's in no way superior.

The Chantry is OK. We know for a fact that lyrium is not there to make tempalrs addicts, but to make tempalr powers work.

 The Chantry controls the surface lyrium trade and since taking lyrium is addicting the templars are basically under the Chantry's boot just like the mages.To be honest I would like to see the Chantry's power reduced even more by the time DA:Inquisition rolls around because I feel they have too much power as it is.

They have done alot of terrible things like destroy Andraste's allies and IMO twisted what she said about magic to gain total control of mages.They then use there power to destroy any other religion and forcibly convert people out of some belief that their religion is the only correct one to follow.

I agree with all that. I would like a chance to bring the Chantry down several notches. The only thing that would stop me, well slow me down, at this point is the new Divine seems like she's trying to change things.

[cjones91]

Nynaeve1981 wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Nynaeve1981 wrote...

Its the chantry that is the issue. They want total control so they make sure their Templars are addicts. They make the Templars be the bad guys while they pretend to be neutral and love all the makers children.
Mages do need to be watched but not jailed. Any group of people or person with power needs checks and balances. So I think the Templars need to separate from the chantry and have a Templar that knows their duty and does not abuse it to lead them. Someone like Cullen or Evangeline(Asunder). Then the Templar order needs a cleansing of mage haters, abusers and even sympathizers(because Ser Thrask was wrong also). Mages have their children taken, are abused and can be locked up for nothing. A rebellion was needed to put things right.
Anders was extreme but he is human. What human has ever been hurt or made to feel helpless that wasn't angry and wanted to do something about it. All he did was take back what was taken from him and others. Maybe he killed the wrong people, innocent people. Innocent people do die in war to accomplish goals.

 Yeah the Chantry needs to go because it's their fault things have escalated to this point.

The Chantry has a place... not the one it currently holds, but still... It needs to be knocked down a few pegs. Not dissolved. My only problem is their constant inaction. The grand clerics are always ready to tell others what to do while refusing do to anything themselves.

I agree it has a place. Maybe helping widows and orphans. I just don't think it has a place jailing mages. Yeah, The inaction does bother me too. That's why Elthina getting blown to bits didn't really upset me. She had many chances to try to help the situation.

Exactly,when your religion blames the people you lock up for something others did it really creates a toxic enviroment.The Chantry is the cause of everything from templars abusing their power over mages from mages then fighting back-almost everything that has happened can be traced back to them.

[Nynaeve1981]

Nynaeve1981 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pfft...what's with all of this "seculaity ftw" nonsense. Frak secualrity. It's in no way superior.

The Chantry is OK. We know for a fact that lyrium is not there to make tempalrs addicts, but to make tempalr powers work.

 The Chantry controls the surface lyrium trade and since taking lyrium is addicting the templars are basically under the Chantry's boot just like the mages.To be honest I would like to see the Chantry's power reduced even more by the time DA:Inquisition rolls around because I feel they have too much power as it is.

They have done alot of terrible things like destroy Andraste's allies and IMO twisted what she said about magic to gain total control of mages.They then use there power to destroy any other religion and forcibly convert people out of some belief that their religion is the only correct one to follow.

I agree with all that. I would like a chance to bring the Chantry down several notches. The only thing that would stop me, well slow me down, at this point is the new Divine seems like she's trying to change things.

How do we know for a fact lyrium isn't there to addict Templars? That's isn't what Alistair said about it and they must know they are turning them to addicts. Alistair seems to be able to use his Templar abilities very well without it.

[cjones91]

Nynaeve1981 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pfft...what's with all of this "seculaity ftw" nonsense. Frak secualrity. It's in no way superior.

The Chantry is OK. We know for a fact that lyrium is not there to make tempalrs addicts, but to make tempalr powers work.

 The Chantry controls the surface lyrium trade and since taking lyrium is addicting the templars are basically under the Chantry's boot just like the mages.To be honest I would like to see the Chantry's power reduced even more by the time DA:Inquisition rolls around because I feel they have too much power as it is.

They have done alot of terrible things like destroy Andraste's allies and IMO twisted what she said about magic to gain total control of mages.They then use there power to destroy any other religion and forcibly convert people out of some belief that their religion is the only correct one to follow.

I agree with all that. I would like a chance to bring the Chantry down several notches. The only thing that would stop me, well slow me down, at this point is the new Divine seems like she's trying to change things.

I respect Justinia for being the only one in the Chantry who saw how the mages were being treated was wrong.She saw magic as something that can be used for the greater good instead of being reviled and I wish more people in the Chantry were like her.

[Nynaeve1981]

cjones91 wrote...

Nynaeve1981 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pfft...what's with all of this "seculaity ftw" nonsense. Frak secualrity. It's in no way superior.

The Chantry is OK. We know for a fact that lyrium is not there to make tempalrs addicts, but to make tempalr powers work.

 The Chantry controls the surface lyrium trade and since taking lyrium is addicting the templars are basically under the Chantry's boot just like the mages.To be honest I would like to see the Chantry's power reduced even more by the time DA:Inquisition rolls around because I feel they have too much power as it is.

They have done alot of terrible things like destroy Andraste's allies and IMO twisted what she said about magic to gain total control of mages.They then use there power to destroy any other religion and forcibly convert people out of some belief that their religion is the only correct one to follow.

I agree with all that. I would like a chance to bring the Chantry down several notches. The only thing that would stop me, well slow me down, at this point is the new Divine seems like she's trying to change things.

I respect Justinia for being the only one in the Chantry who saw how the mages were being treated was wrong.She saw magic as something that can be used for the greater good instead of being reviled and I wish more people in the Chantry were like her.

I think Justina could help this thing to work out somewhat peaceful. The mages need to deal with Adrian though. She doesn't want peace she wants revenge.

[cjones91]

Nynaeve1981 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Nynaeve1981 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pfft...what's with all of this "seculaity ftw" nonsense. Frak secualrity. It's in no way superior.

The Chantry is OK. We know for a fact that lyrium is not there to make tempalrs addicts, but to make tempalr powers work.

 The Chantry controls the surface lyrium trade and since taking lyrium is addicting the templars are basically under the Chantry's boot just like the mages.To be honest I would like to see the Chantry's power reduced even more by the time DA:Inquisition rolls around because I feel they have too much power as it is.

They have done alot of terrible things like destroy Andraste's allies and IMO twisted what she said about magic to gain total control of mages.They then use there power to destroy any other religion and forcibly convert people out of some belief that their religion is the only correct one to follow.

I agree with all that. I would like a chance to bring the Chantry down several notches. The only thing that would stop me, well slow me down, at this point is the new Divine seems like she's trying to change things.

I respect Justinia for being the only one in the Chantry who saw how the mages were being treated was wrong.She saw magic as something that can be used for the greater good instead of being reviled and I wish more people in the Chantry were like her.

I think Justina could help this thing to work out somewhat peaceful. The mages need to deal with Adrian though. She doesn't want peace she wants revenge.

Killing Adrian is always a option.I just hope Justinia isn't killed by some idiot although I get the feeling that's exactly what is going to happen.