1799 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Ukki wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

9TailsFox wrote...
Like Cullen : "Mages are not people like you and me Hawke" yes he is shining example of good templar. I agree on Gregoir at least he is nice templar.

But it's true. Mages and not people like Cullen and non-mage Hawke. Their magic makes them much more dangerous and, thus, the way they are treated should account for this important difference.
But that doesn't imply they are being denied a personhood and Cullen has never abused anyone.

People seem to forget that Tevinter Imperium ruled Thedas for millenias just fine. Magister ruled continent didn´t implode because of magic.

No, it just allowed continent wide slavery and human sacrifice. Happy times.

Cultural issues that have nothing to do with magic. The point is that it wasn't destroyed by abomination plagues or anything of that kind, even with their demonology practices.

Legions of slaves, mind control, dabbling with demons, strict supply of Lyrium to control Templars have no bearing on why they haven't been overthrown and the Magisters Hold Tevinter in an Iron grip. Haha okay.

If we're going to play that little game then how can you attribute the success of the Circles in Rivian without looking at the cultural context of how they veiw mages as performing for the greater community, not to ammass wealth or power. 

If you're going to disregard cultural issues then we're going to disregard it across the board, you don't get to pick and choose which ones are benefitial to a more liberal system.

[billy the squid]

IanPolaris wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Ukki wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

9TailsFox wrote...
Like Cullen : "Mages are not people like you and me Hawke" yes he is shining example of good templar. I agree on Gregoir at least he is nice templar.

But it's true. Mages and not people like Cullen and non-mage Hawke. Their magic makes them much more dangerous and, thus, the way they are treated should account for this important difference.
But that doesn't imply they are being denied a personhood and Cullen has never abused anyone.

People seem to forget that Tevinter Imperium ruled Thedas for millenias just fine. Magister ruled continent didn´t implode because of magic.

No, it just allowed continent wide slavery and human sacrifice. Happy times.

Tevinter didn't care a bit about what we'd call human rights.  That doesn't mean that this would be true for all societies that openly accept magic and indeed we know that it isn't.  The point is that we know that mages and mundanes can exist side by side without the civilization becoming a smoking crater.

-Polaris

Edit PS: Ninjaed by Xil.

Tevinter society is the same as Orlais? Rivian, where mages live side by side with mundanes is the same as either of these? the Anderfells are the same as the Rivani? Playing the cultural card means diddly squat because one culture is not the same as the other and doesn't ingrane the same cultural value as another one.

Human rights again, really? Orlais' Human rights don't extend beyond the Chevaliers, Ferelden's are more liberal but don't apply to the mass pesantry. The Anderfells are a Mistery. The Rivani too. The free city states I have the suspicion use whether someone is a citizen or not, with all the required caveats. I can keep going in how the concept that a natural right for a small portion of the country exists does not imply it is magnified through out the entire society. That wasn't how it worked in medieval society and it's not how it works now in parts of the world either.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Tevinter didn't care a bit about what we'd call human rights.  That doesn't mean that this would be true for all societies that openly accept magic and indeed we know that it isn't.  The point is that we know that mages and mundanes can exist side by side without the civilization becoming a smoking crater.

There is no civilization where mages are free and a cultural and societal bias in favor of magic users didn't extablish itself. The violation of human rights is not a requisite for one group to be the higher strata of society.
Tevinter is what we all know. Amongst the Dalish, mages have supreme executive power. In Rivain, according to WoT page 80, communities are lead by mages. The Chasind themselves are lead by shamans who are said to have been taught magic by Flemeth.
The history of Thedas has shown, time and again, that there can be no true equality between mages and non-mages. Even the very terms used make it so that everyone in Thedas is defined by mages and in comparison to them.

Ps: I'm sure you'll mention Haven. But Haven was not a society, it was lost village where everyone was likely cousin to everyone else and where the greatest concern appeared to be the best ways of worshipping an overgrown lizard. It's not applicable to Thedas at large.

[Dabrikishaw]

I'll pick each option at least once.

[Lord Gremlin]

Seeing as I always loved playing as an evil wizard/witch in all games where possible I hope it is possible to bring about the dark age of blood magic rule. Like Tevinter but more extreme.
That will require more control over your character of course.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Ps: I'm sure you'll mention Haven. But Haven was not a society, it was lost village where everyone was likely cousin to everyone else and where the greatest concern appeared to be the best ways of worshipping an overgrown lizard. It's not applicable to Thedas at large.

Take a course of Anthropology and pass it.  Haven very much qualifies as an independant society.  You want to discount it because it doesn't fit your pet theory.  Doesn't work that way. It remains a valid counter-example.

There is no reason to think it's not applicable to Thedas at large since almost all interaction in Thedas is local (as demanded by the technological level and economic realities of the world).

-Polaris

[Sol Downer]

I stand on the side of JUSTICE! JUSTICE SLAAAAAAAAAAASH!

[Medhia Nox]

@MisterJB: Furthermore - mages are only given power seemingly because they have power to begin with.

I've yet to see a single mage beyond Wynne in these games behave any more intellectual or wise than any common thug on the street. Orsino and Irving just have "magic" - otherwise, they're petty scheming twits who don't seem the least bit impressive. The same goes for the rest of the mages - with most just self-serving narcissists (Anders, Jowan, Merrill, Uldred, Zathrian, Morrigan.)

Mages obtain power not through ability to rule - but through the ability to take rulership.

Marcus Aurelius would be so depressed.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 10 juin 2013 - 03:33 .

[IanPolaris]

Medhia Nox wrote...
I've yet to see a single mage beyond Wynne in these games behave any more intellectual or wise than any common thug on the street. Orsino and Irving just have "magic" - otherwise, they're petty scheming twits who don't seem the least bit impressive. The same goes for the rest of the mages - with most just self-serving narcissists (Anders, Jowan, Merrill, Uldred, Zathrian, Morrigan.)
 

Bioware has deliberately prevented the player from seeing them, and this is by Bioware's own admission.  The type of mages and personalities are not representative for mages as a whole (again by BW's own admission).  This was done to encourage the player to side with the Templars.

-Polaris

[Beerfish]

To answer the op. I don't know where I stand on the M/T war. I'll need more info before I can answer that. I will undoubtedly play both sides of the coin in different playthrough. My personal leaning is in favor of Templars and against the mages.

[Medhia Nox]

So... you made them up?

[Beerfish]

IanPolaris wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
I've yet to see a single mage beyond Wynne in these games behave any more intellectual or wise than any common thug on the street. Orsino and Irving just have "magic" - otherwise, they're petty scheming twits who don't seem the least bit impressive. The same goes for the rest of the mages - with most just self-serving narcissists (Anders, Jowan, Merrill, Uldred, Zathrian, Morrigan.)
 

Bioware has deliberately prevented the player from seeing them, and this is by Bioware's own admission.  The type of mages and personalities are not representative for mages as a whole (again by BW's own admission).  This was done to encourage the player to side with the Templars.

-Polaris

Nonsense.  You could say the very same thing about the Templars and the number of bad templars that are shown.  From these forums you see more pro mage than pro templars people.

This has been a mistake on BioWares part in the grand scheme of things imo in the quest to giving players strong reasons to do quests on both side they have shown the worst of both sides and not enough of the moderates or good types.  Even worse they have really failed to some extent on dealign enough with all the other people out there and how they feel about both the mages and the templars.

[IanPolaris]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So... you made them up?

Not at all.  I used DAO as a base, and started with the basic assumption that mages tend to have the same personalities and personality traits as non-mages.  In fact we are told that there are a lot of decent people who are mages, but we never get to see them (at least in DA2).  This was a deliberate design decision by Bioware.

-Polaris

[MissOuJ]

Standing with the Mages -- viva la revolución!

... but I'll probably help out any decent Templars I meet, if they're nice and don't hate mages.

(I will probably do an anti-mage playthrough at some point, but my personal canon is and shall always be pro-mage)

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Take a course of Anthropology and pass it.  Haven very much qualifies as an independant society.  You want to discount it because it doesn't fit your pet theory.  Doesn't work that way. It remains a valid counter-example.

There is no reason to think it's not applicable to Thedas at large since almost all interaction in Thedas is local (as demanded by the technological level and economic realities of the world).

Haven is about as applicable to Thedas at large as the methods of Dalish Keepers; you know, training one single apprentice for years to the detriment of every other mage in the clan; are applicable to a population of hundreds of mages like the one that exists inside the Circle.

Besides that, even if it were, it's still one "society" of free mages vs four other all much bigger and more complex than Haven that always lead to non-mages being dominated by mages.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...
Besides that, even if it were, it's still one "society" of free mages vs four other all much bigger and more complex than Haven that always lead to non-mages being dominated by mages.

I'd be more impressed by this statement if you could actually prove it.

Edit Hint:  Correlation does not imply causation.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 10 juin 2013 - 03:54 .

[Medhia Nox]

And yet - I'm never "shown" anyone quite as psychotic as the mages.

You dismiss this - permitting them every act of violence because you "feel" for them.

I do not.

I'm not going to invent stuff Bioware has not shown me just so I can feel empathy for a group of dangerous rebels that I identify with a real world grudge.

Also - if their attempt was to make me empathic for Templar cruelty by showing dip**** mages - that too failed.

I'm not a fanatic. Cruelty is cruelty. I do not excuse it because I "took a side".

I'm against both factions.

Odd, that we're "told" mages are shut ins - who live a terrible horrible prison-like existence (oh, wait - that's only by BSN forumites and Anders). And yet - they're all so socially competent and capable in the world outside their towers.

In fact - if these mages "are" treated like animals - then I'd expect them to be utterly incapable of proper socialization (especially quickly).

Alas... they seem downright cosmopolitan. Strange.

[IanPolaris]

Medhia Nox wrote...

And yet - I'm never "shown" anyone quite as psychotic as the mages.

Again a deliberate design decision.  There are plenty of psychotic Templar actions, but we never actually see them on screen.

You dismiss this - permitting them every act of violence because you "feel" for them.

I do not.

Wrong.  I don't dismiss mage acts of violence.  I abhor them and I always have.  I have always and consistantly called Anders a terrorist and I kill him every playthrough (except once to see what the game would be like when I didn't). 

I'm not going to invent stuff Bioware has not shown me just so I can feel empathy for a group of dangerous rebels that I identify with a real world grudge.

I am not asking you to.  I am asking you not to take the evidnece at face value because it's skewed and it's been admitted that it's skewed.


As for the rest, based on the plurality of your posts, you seem pretty pro-templar to me. 

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 10 juin 2013 - 03:58 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
I'd be more impressed by this statement if you could actually prove it.

Edit Hint:  Correlation does not imply causation.

Right, it's clearly a coincidence that in societies were mages are free; three of which are tribal in nature at the moment, I might add; they end up dominating non-mages. You see, magic, which is the inherent ability to shape reality, has nothing to do with it.
In Tevinter, magic is taught to represent the Maker's favor but the ruling class is determined by haircuts. The longer, the better.

In the Dalish, magic is again taught to be a gift of the Creators that all elves once had; meaning that mages are closer to the ideal elf that non-magical elves; but again, the ruling class being mages is just a coincidence. They are determined by a random dart toss. Whoever, hits a human wins.

In Rivain, it's...sashjhsdfjsh. I don't know what that is but it clearly can't be because of magic. After all, when have human beings ever taken advantage of natural gifts to elevate ourselves?

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB,

Correlation (even if we agreed with all your cases) does not equal causation. The fact that I can point to a working and valid society (Haven) that does NOT follow your theory is enough to disprove it by counter-example.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

The exception that proves the rule, nothing else.
And it's hardly a society. Just a really large family. No society in Thedas has ever given the same value to both groups or argued that mages and non-mages are equal and should be treated in the same manner. All that differs is who dominates. Sometimes mages, sometimes non-mages.

[mesmerizedish]

Luiren wrote...
Where do YOU stand in the Mage/Templar War?

Very far away.

[MichaelStuart]

I support neither side.
If giving the option I would destroy both sides.

[mousestalker]

Me, personally, what Ish said^. I'm neither mage nor templar. I've been to temples, including The Temple. I've also seen magic shows, including The Magic Show. But those are not quite the same.

[Will-o'-wisp]

Pro Templars over here. ^^