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[Major Crackhead]

Radical insane blood mages, aka Tevinter Imperium.

If there is an option for this, I will also kill pathetic hippy mages who just want peace (The Bethany types), as they also stand in my way of a blood mage paradise.

[EmperorSahlertz]

JackumsD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Physiologically Qunari are far superior to humans, and the potential for magic is the same within the Qunari as it is in the humans and elves. So by your logic, the Qunari mages should rule the world, from a survivalist supremacist point of view.

Incorrect. That's not following my "logic" at all.

The Qunari condemn magic, and as such the Saarebas will never be as proficient with it as trained human mages. Their potential is irrelevant if they're incapable of meeting it due to their religion's dogmatic views and restrictions.

If the Qunari embraced magic, a la Tevinter? Then yes, it would be fitting for them to rule, as they would became the superior race of Thedas. However, they don't, so human mages are still the top dogs.

So it has nothing to do with a natural state of being, and you are merely being a disguised mage supremacist. Cool, gotcha, moving on to actual worthy topics.

[EnerPrime]

MisterJB wrote...

ames4u wrote...
The mages themselves are often
shown backed into a corner when they break out the abomination transformation.
It's not because they want to become such.

Perhaps but take into account that life is hard. That seems like an obvious observation but it's important to remember that, even if a mage has naught but good intention (and that is not true for all mages), there are innumerable situations in everyday life that can tempt the mages to abuse their powers or to surrender to a demon.
Should the people be dependant upon mages having a life devoid of concerns in order for them to be safe?

You see, I heavily doubt your "Mages will turn to blood magic and/or demons when life turns hard"  theory.

The majority of the abomination transformations (that are not forced on the mage by an outside source) we see are mages who are either right about to be killed or forced into a fate they consider to be worse than death. These are mages who are about to be murdered, sold into slavery, tranquilised, etc and there's nothing they can do to stop it, even with this vaunted magic power that  you claim could let a single mage wipe out hundreds of people.

You cannot possibly think comparing those situations to anyting in everyday life is a valid comparison.

And even in those extreme situations (and do keep in mind we as players only see the extreme situations) we have seen mages who do not break and give in to demons they are apparently constantly at risk from. Like that girl an Anders' quest who is straight up told she is about to be tranquilised and then raped. As far as she knew her life was over. She had literally nothing to lose if she gave in and went abomination.

And that's why your 'abominations and blood magic will run rampant if we let mages have normal lives!' talk is bunk. Because under the Templars and the Chantry mages have nothing to lose, except a life that many of them feel isn't worth living. But let them have friends, family, property etc and then they have a reason to live within the rules. They'll have lives they won't be willing to give up by giving in to demons.

[MisterJB]

EnerPrime wrote...
You see, I heavily doubt your "Mages will turn to blood magic and/or demons when life turns hard"  theory.

The majority of the abomination transformations (that are not forced on the mage by an outside source) we see are mages who are either right about to be killed or forced into a fate they consider to be worse than death. These are mages who are about to be murdered, sold into slavery, tranquilised, etc and there's nothing they can do to stop it, even with this vaunted magic power that  you claim could let a single mage wipe out hundreds of people.

You cannot possibly think comparing those situations to anyting in everyday life is a valid comparison.

And even in those extreme situations (and do keep in mind we as players only see the extreme situations) we have seen mages who do not break and give in to demons they are apparently constantly at risk from. Like that girl an Anders' quest who is straight up told she is about to be tranquilised and then raped. As far as she knew her life was over. She had literally nothing to lose if she gave in and went abomination.

And that's why your 'abominations and blood magic will run rampant if we let mages have normal lives!' talk is bunk. Because under the Templars and the Chantry mages have nothing to lose, except a life that many of them feel isn't worth living. But let them have friends, family, property etc and then they have a reason to live within the rules. They'll have lives they won't be willing to give up by giving in to demons.

And yet we have seen it happen. Connor and Zathrian are two such mages; one was even extensively trained; who dealt with situations completely independent from the templars and that many people, unfortunately, have had to deal with. Both succumbed exactly because they were not willing to give up their reasons for living which happened to be their families.
Let us say a village is struck by a plague and the child of a mage is afflicted by it. His father can save him but only if he uses the blood of other villagers. Will he say no?
What makes life worth living and just how far people are willing to go to protect is so very subjective. Will mages fall daily? Perhaps not but many will eventually and when they do, consequences will always be disastruous.

[Jackums]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Physiologically Qunari are far superior to humans, and the potential for magic is the same within the Qunari as it is in the humans and elves. So by your logic, the Qunari mages should rule the world, from a survivalist supremacist point of view.

Incorrect. That's not following my "logic" at all.

The Qunari condemn magic, and as such the Saarebas will never be as proficient with it as trained human mages. Their potential is irrelevant if they're incapable of meeting it due to their religion's dogmatic views and restrictions.

If the Qunari embraced magic, a la Tevinter? Then yes, it would be fitting for them to rule, as they would became the superior race of Thedas. However, they don't, so human mages are still the top dogs.

So it has nothing to do with a natural state of being, and you are merely being a disguised mage supremacist. Cool, gotcha, moving on to actual worthy topics.

Their natural superiority is totally relevant, however, that's only half of the equation. If they're incapable of utilising these inherent traits to their fullest potential, or even to a considerably proficient extent, then they're not really relevant. As long as the Qun dictates that magic is to be suppressed and constrained, this will hold true.

[EmperorSahlertz]

JackumsD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Physiologically Qunari are far superior to humans, and the potential for magic is the same within the Qunari as it is in the humans and elves. So by your logic, the Qunari mages should rule the world, from a survivalist supremacist point of view.

Incorrect. That's not following my "logic" at all.

The Qunari condemn magic, and as such the Saarebas will never be as proficient with it as trained human mages. Their potential is irrelevant if they're incapable of meeting it due to their religion's dogmatic views and restrictions.

If the Qunari embraced magic, a la Tevinter? Then yes, it would be fitting for them to rule, as they would became the superior race of Thedas. However, they don't, so human mages are still the top dogs.

So it has nothing to do with a natural state of being, and you are merely being a disguised mage supremacist. Cool, gotcha, moving on to actual worthy topics.

Their natural superiority is totally relevant, however, that's only half of the equation. If they're incapable of utilising these inherent traits to their fullest potential, or even to a considerably proficient extent, then they're not really relevant. As long as the Qun dictates that magic is to be suppressed and constrained, this will hold true.

Aren't human mages being "suppressed" too? So why are the humans more worth than the Qunari? Both got the exact same magical potential, but the QUnari are physiologically superior.

[EnerPrime]

MisterJB wrote...
And yet we have seen it happen. Connor and Zathrian are two such mages; one was even extensively trained; who dealt with situations completely independent from the templars and that many people, unfortunately, have had to deal with. Both succumbed exactly because they were not willing to give up their reasons for living which happened to be their families.
Let us say a village is struck by a plague and the child of a mage is afflicted by it. His father can save him but only if he uses the blood of other villagers. Will he say no?
What makes life worth living and just how far people are willing to go to protect is so very subjective. Will mages fall daily? Perhaps not but many will eventually and when they do, consequences will always be disastruous.

Both those examples were not circle trained mages, and I'm not arguing for the complete abolition of the Circle.
Young Mages certainy need training and to be taught that deals with demons always end poorly. I'm arguing that forcin them into a life where they are constantly watched and under threat of death or worse if the Templars believe they are misbehaving is more likely to make an individual willing to commit suicide in a way that will take his tormentors with them. The Circle as is stands creates an endless stream of mages that have nothing worth living for, and then casts them as villains when they are overcome by despair.

And while it is true that some mage will always go bad, just as there will always be corrupt Templars, the current system has led unavoidably to a disaster that apparently now threatens the whole world. A village or two every few decades that my way might cause is small beans compared to the apocalyptic disaster your preferred way has caused.

[EmperorSahlertz]

EnerPrime wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
And yet we have seen it happen. Connor and Zathrian are two such mages; one was even extensively trained; who dealt with situations completely independent from the templars and that many people, unfortunately, have had to deal with. Both succumbed exactly because they were not willing to give up their reasons for living which happened to be their families.
Let us say a village is struck by a plague and the child of a mage is afflicted by it. His father can save him but only if he uses the blood of other villagers. Will he say no?
What makes life worth living and just how far people are willing to go to protect is so very subjective. Will mages fall daily? Perhaps not but many will eventually and when they do, consequences will always be disastruous.

Both those examples were not circle trained mages, and I'm not arguing for the complete abolition of the Circle.
Young Mages certainy need training and to be taught that deals with demons always end poorly. I'm arguing that forcin them into a life where they are constantly watched and under threat of death or worse if the Templars believe they are misbehaving is more likely to make an individual willing to commit suicide in a way that will take his tormentors with them. The Circle as is stands creates an endless stream of mages that have nothing worth living for, and then casts them as villains when they are overcome by despair.

And while it is true that some mage will always go bad, just as there will always be corrupt Templars, the current system has led unavoidably to a disaster that apparently now threatens the whole world. A village or two every few decades that my way might cause is small beans compared to the apocalyptic disaster your preferred way has caused.

Define "nothing left to live for", because as I see it, the mages got plenty to live for.

[Jackums]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aren't human mages being "suppressed" too? So why are the humans more worth than the Qunari? Both got the exact same magical potential, but the QUnari are physiologically superior.

No. Right now they're actually free. The Circles have dissolved. Then you have Tevinter, one of the most powerful nations in Thedas, which is ruled by human mages. They're not comparable. Even before the mage rebellion, the Saarebas suffered far greater oppression and harsher lifestyles than the mages in the Circles.

If the Qunari mages rebelled against the Qun just as the Circle mages have rebelled against the Templar Order, then your argument would be valid. At this point we've never even seen a Tal-Vashoth Saarebas, though, if I recall correctly. The Qunari are so zealous in their views that their mages seemingly don't even want to be free, which differentiates them quite a bit from the human mages under Chantry oppression in Thedas.

[EmperorSahlertz]

JackumsD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aren't human mages being "suppressed" too? So why are the humans more worth than the Qunari? Both got the exact same magical potential, but the QUnari are physiologically superior.

No. Right now they're actually free. The Circles have dissolved. Then you have Tevinter, one of the most powerful nations in Thedas, which is ruled by human mages. They're not comparable. Even before the mage rebellion, the Saarebas suffered far greater oppression and harsher lifestyles than the mages in the Circles.

If the Qunari mages rebelled against the Qun just as the Circle mages have rebelled against the Templar Order, then your argument would be valid. At this point we've never even seen a Tal-Vashoth Saarebas, though, if I recall correctly. The Qunari are so zealous in their views that their mages seemingly don't even want to be free, which differentiates them quite a bit from the human mages under Chantry oppression in Thedas.

We seen many Tal-Vasoth mages, you fight plenty of them in DA2, so we know they exist, and since they are completely free, they should rule the world..

[Lotion Soronarr]

EnerPrime wrote...
And while it is true that some mage will always go bad, just as there will always be corrupt Templars, the current system has led unavoidably to a disaster that apparently now threatens the whole world. A village or two every few decades that my way might cause is small beans compared to the apocalyptic disaster your preferred way has caused.

That's starting from an assumption that something like this wouldn't happen without the cirlce system.
For all we know, the Circle system could have delayed such an apocalyptic scenario for a thousand years.

Because I kind doubt deaths from a mage-templar war could have caused enough deaths to tear the veil open. Remember that mages are a tiny minority and even templars are few in numbers compared to the armies of nations that clashed many times.

If the veil is torn because other nations were fighting, then again it has nothing to do with the circle system.

[Jackums]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aren't human mages being "suppressed" too? So why are the humans more worth than the Qunari? Both got the exact same magical potential, but the QUnari are physiologically superior.

No. Right now they're actually free. The Circles have dissolved. Then you have Tevinter, one of the most powerful nations in Thedas, which is ruled by human mages. They're not comparable. Even before the mage rebellion, the Saarebas suffered far greater oppression and harsher lifestyles than the mages in the Circles.

If the Qunari mages rebelled against the Qun just as the Circle mages have rebelled against the Templar Order, then your argument would be valid. At this point we've never even seen a Tal-Vashoth Saarebas, though, if I recall correctly. The Qunari are so zealous in their views that their mages seemingly don't even want to be free, which differentiates them quite a bit from the human mages under Chantry oppression in Thedas.

We seen many Tal-Vasoth mages, you fight plenty of them in DA2, so we know they exist, and since they are completely free, they should rule the world..

Story-wise, no we haven't. We've heard nothing of any established rebel factions, a la the Resolutionists of the Circle, or anything of the like. They're still too small a minority to count.

[Ieldra]

In an attempt to get a little light-heartedness into this thread - it appears that Circle mages are spared some unpleasant duties at least. Yesterday, I came across a scene in DAO I had never seen before (or paid attention to while running by, don't know) in my many playthroughs:

Some time after you've saved the Circle from Annullment, when you re-enter the tower and walk into the Library, you can see a pair of templars on the floor. One of them is cleaning the floor of bloodstains and gore, the other one is leaning at a wall, resting. There is an abomination corpse nearby. You get this dialogue:

Cleaning Templar: "Come on, you've rested enough. We need to get these out of the tower before they get... fragrant."
Resting Templar: "Touching those abominations... it's wrong."
Cleaning Templar: "Someone has to do it."
Resting Templar: "Why do we have to take them across the lake to burn? The lake's right there."

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 juillet 2013 - 09:34 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

JackumsD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aren't human mages being "suppressed" too? So why are the humans more worth than the Qunari? Both got the exact same magical potential, but the QUnari are physiologically superior.

No. Right now they're actually free. The Circles have dissolved. Then you have Tevinter, one of the most powerful nations in Thedas, which is ruled by human mages. They're not comparable. Even before the mage rebellion, the Saarebas suffered far greater oppression and harsher lifestyles than the mages in the Circles.

If the Qunari mages rebelled against the Qun just as the Circle mages have rebelled against the Templar Order, then your argument would be valid. At this point we've never even seen a Tal-Vashoth Saarebas, though, if I recall correctly. The Qunari are so zealous in their views that their mages seemingly don't even want to be free, which differentiates them quite a bit from the human mages under Chantry oppression in Thedas.

We seen many Tal-Vasoth mages, you fight plenty of them in DA2, so we know they exist, and since they are completely free, they should rule the world..

Story-wise, no we haven't. We've heard nothing of any established rebel factions, a la the Resolutionists of the Circle, or anything of the like. They're still too small a minority to count.

Storywise we fight a band of Tal-Vasoth, and amongst them are Saarebas. So we have encoutnered free Qunari mages. So we should all bow down in awe of these superior beings, and let them have their way with us...

[TheKomandorShepard]

a few thousand mages vs several millions non-mages guess who wins , mages aren't so unstoppable sure they have flamethrower from hand but they can't bring the fire rain this isn't D&D , most powerful spell we seen in non-gameplay is fireball.

[addiction21]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

a few thousand mages vs several millions non-mages guess who wins , mages aren't so unstoppable sure they have flamethrower from hand but they can't bring the fire rain this isn't D&D , most powerful spell we seen in non-gameplay is fireball.

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Firestorm 

And I raise your fireball with Storm Of the Century

[TheKomandorShepard]

addiction21 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

a few thousand mages vs several millions non-mages guess who wins , mages aren't so unstoppable sure they have flamethrower from hand but they can't bring the fire rain this isn't D&D , most powerful spell we seen in non-gameplay is fireball.

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Firestorm 

And I raise your fireball with Storm Of the Century

But as i know this is only used in gameplay (i may be wrong) as skills but some skills are impossible to do in story like disappearing in the middle of the fight or hail of arrows.

[AutumnWitch]

Luiren wrote...

What side will you pick in the next Dragon Age game? Will you stand with the mages or templars?

In my opinion, both Dragon Age games so far have offered a slightly different perspective on the war between them. I found myself feeling the mages plight and supported "Mage Power" in Origins, and in DA2 I found myself feeling a little less than merciful towards the mages who succumbed to blood magic so easily and agreed the templars needed to get the Circle back in control so that Kirkwall might see order once again. While I did not agree with either Orsino or Meredith, I did feel the Chanrty should have stepped in.

Perhaps in DA: I there will be a third option, a way that we will not need to wholly support either faction.

I am not sure if anyone else has mentioned this BUT I bet that during the peak of the mage/templar war something is going to happen to force them both to work together to defeat an even greater problem and afterwards they will work out some sort of middle ground because they will understand that they need each other to remain safe. 

[Jackums]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Storywise we fight a band of Tal-Vasoth, and amongst them are Saarebas. So we have encoutnered free Qunari mages. So we should all bow down in awe of these superior beings, and let them have their way with us...

Nope. Still too small a minority.

[EmperorSahlertz]

JackumsD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Storywise we fight a band of Tal-Vasoth, and amongst them are Saarebas. So we have encoutnered free Qunari mages. So we should all bow down in awe of these superior beings, and let them have their way with us...

Nope. Still too small a minority.

Mages are an extremely small minority too. I doubt that there are even that many more of them than Qunari. So the distinction here is, they are a different race...
But enough, you are obivously being dishonest about your own "stance", and try to mask the supremacism in some sort of "natural state" stance, which is of course complete bull, since  no such thing exists, and i grow tired of this.

[Jackums]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Storywise we fight a band of Tal-Vasoth, and amongst them are Saarebas. So we have encoutnered free Qunari mages. So we should all bow down in awe of these superior beings, and let them have their way with us...

Nope. Still too small a minority.

Mages are an extremely small minority too. I doubt that there are even that many more of them than Qunari. So the distinction here is, they are a different race...
But enough, you are obivously being dishonest about your own "stance", and try to mask the supremacism in some sort of "natural state" stance, which is of course complete bull, since  no such thing exists, and i grow tired of this.

Not at all. You're simply over-generalising due to a lack of refute.

Name one Tal-Vashoth Saarebas faction. Name one nation ruled by them, a la Tevinter. Give me the name of one within the story that isn't present solely during gameplay. Obviously you're not going to be able to supply any of that. Human mages have entire fraternities and can be found all over Thedas. One of the largest and most powerful nations in Thedas is ruled by human mages. There's simply no comparison.

[Blood drinker 7777]

mages for me

[EmperorSahlertz]

JackumsD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Storywise we fight a band of Tal-Vasoth, and amongst them are Saarebas. So we have encoutnered free Qunari mages. So we should all bow down in awe of these superior beings, and let them have their way with us...

Nope. Still too small a minority.

Mages are an extremely small minority too. I doubt that there are even that many more of them than Qunari. So the distinction here is, they are a different race...
But enough, you are obivously being dishonest about your own "stance", and try to mask the supremacism in some sort of "natural state" stance, which is of course complete bull, since  no such thing exists, and i grow tired of this.

Not at all. You're simply over-generalising due to a lack of refute.

Name one Tal-Vashoth Saarebas faction. Name one nation ruled by them, a la Tevinter. Give me the name of one within the story that isn't present solely during gameplay. Obviously you're not going to be able to supply any of that. Human mages have entire fraternities and can be found all over Thedas. One of the largest and most powerful nations in Thedas is ruled by human mages. There's simply no comparison.

So because we havn't encountered a free Saarebas enclave yet, they dont exist? Well... I havn't seen a  live hummer either, so obviously they don't exist either.
You know this is another glaring example of your dishonesty. Not only does mages have to be human, they also have to have joined the particualr political organizations you endorse, to be deemed worthy to rule. You might just aswell straight up say, that you endorse Tevinter, instead of trying to mask it in some sort of "natural role" for the mages...

[Jackums]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So because we havn't encountered a free Saarebas enclave yet, they dont exist? Well... I havn't seen a  live hummer either, so obviously they don't exist either.
You know this is another glaring example of your dishonesty. Not only does mages have to be human, they also have to have joined the particualr political organizations you endorse, to be deemed worthy to rule. You might just aswell straight up say, that you endorse Tevinter, instead of trying to mask it in some sort of "natural role" for the mages...

No. You're ignoring blaringly significant differences.

The Dalish mages? Do not practise any form of magic related to spirits, as they believe them all to be dangerous.
The Qunari mages? Do not practise magic to the point that they're less proficient than Circle mages.

Both of these "categories" of mages are incapable of fulfilling their potential due to their beliefs. Human mages are the only major group that are not self-restricted by their own dogmatic views. Are there exceptions to the above? Yes, of course. Such as Merril. I'm also sure there are plenty of Tal-Vashoth Saarebas. However neither of the aforementioned groups of mages are even remotely large enough to warrant ruling Thedas.

Human mages, however, already have, and are currently rebelling on a continent-wide scale.

Modifié par JackumsD, 18 juillet 2013 - 01:17 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Right. Human mage supremacism. Gotcha. Moving on.