606 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

Because they fail to even pinpoint the central conflict, especially with the Catalyst.

The ending is NOT about organics and synthetics, its about sacrifice.

Why?

Because that's what the central conflict revolves around. In fact, organics and synthetics theme only matters in the synthesis ending. The central conflict is one of METHOD not MOTIVE. In fact, Shepard really doesn't argue to the motives, he argues against his methods. This is why you can't go...."well, Starchild, geth and quarian peace can prove you wrong" because that simply is not the conflict Shepard has with him, the conflict is his cycle.

Also, the TIM conflict is not about destroying the Reapers or controlling them (although it can be with a Paragon) its about once again, not only his methods, but that they are counterproductive (as well as he is indoctrinated).

This is the protagonist and antagonist conflict.......the protagonist is willing to sacrifice himself or herself to preserve the galaxy and the ones they love, and call for others to sacrifice not without thought or feeling. The antagonists, both TIM and the Catalyst, ruthlessly sacrifice lives to pursue their goals and motives, with no thought whatsoever. THIS IS THE CONFLICT. And the entire Catalyst conversation shows the Catalyst's character flaw, he simply doesn't truly understand organics and their are hints of this throughout the conversation, especially if Shepard dissents some of the choices.

This is the central conflict not only of the ending, not only of Mass Effect 3, but the entire trilogy. But nope, BSNers don't recognize the obvious, harping on the Catalyst's motives while completely ignoring Shepards arguments in the end. Nevermind the Catalyst's creation strikes at the heart another theme, people are willing to create or harness things that they do not understand to pursue their goals and solutions to problems, backfiring due to lack of understanding.

This is why Shepard had to sacrifice to fire the Crucible, the themes define him as such.

So when anti enders say that the themes of the ending come out of nowhere, they really do not get it.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 10 juin 2013 - 06:00 .

[Yestare7]

 
Well I am glad you got the point, and came of your pedestal to enlighten us!!:lol:

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

I think the problem is that the "theme" for the ending is full of so much gibberish that none of us, including bioware, even knows what the hell the theme of the ending was supposed to be in the first place.

[Yestare7]

i believe the theme of the ending was Cheating the gamer out of proper closure.

[Ryzaki]

*sigh*

Cause this is exactly what we needed. More ending debates.

[dreamgazer]

Think what you will, sir or madame, but players got that they were weighing sacrifices in the ending. They can think it's nonsensical and poorly-executed even if they "get the point".

Themes aren't everything.

[NeonFlux117]

The ending was an attempt for and I quote from Hudson- "High level storytelling". And an attempt at deus ex machina. One of the themes of the entire game is sacrifice not just the ending. Derp.

The ending isn't bad cause "we don't get it" it's bad cause it's bad storytelling and lacks narrative cohesiveness and also introduces a major character- The Catalyst, in the last 15 minutes of a 90 plus hour narrative and plot.

That's called poor writing and storytelling.

Nuff said.

[NeonFlux117]

Liamv2 wrote...

I like your list of top 5 games. Those are amazing. Glad someone else enjoys Spec ops the Line as much as me. 

Criminally underated game.

Sorry op, off topic. 

[dreamgazer]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

The ending was an attempt for and I quote from Hudson- "High level storytelling".

To be fair, that quote meant that they were keeping the content on a simplified upper layer, not elevating its importance.

[MegaSovereign]

Man you guys just won't let it go.

Starts to make the Reapers seem like a good idea. Next stop BSN.

[dreamgazer]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Man you guys just won't let it go.

Starts to make the Reapers seem like a good idea. Next stop BSN.

Keeping you in business, Sovvy.

[StarcloudSWG]

Sacrifice is, at BEST, a subtheme. Further, it is a theme that does NOT fit the character archetype that Shepard is. Shepard is NOT a tragic hero.

Mordin is a tragic hero, which is why his redemption includes him sacrificing his life.

Forcing the death of Shepard is an irritating and incompetent mismatch of character to character arc.

[Jadebaby]

The way I read that was the OP trying to convince themselves it makes sense...

a year and a half later....

Move on dude.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ryzaki wrote...

*sigh*

Cause this is exactly what we needed. More ending debates.

There's nothing wrong with debate.

But the OP is more or less flame baiting now. He's made numerous threads and appearances in other threads saying the exact same thing. 

[Hey]

cool. so where do we go from here?

[NeonFlux117]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

*sigh*

Cause this is exactly what we needed. More ending debates.

There's nothing wrong with debate.

But the OP is more or less flame baiting now. He's made numerous threads and appearances in other threads saying the exact same thing. 

Yep, discourse if fine. But saying that we are silly children and "don't get it" is just ignorant and annoying. And for that..... LET THE FLAMING BEGIN!!!!

[Bill Casey]

Rape, slavery and genocide are not sacrifices...
They are sick war crimes...

If sacrifice is what the narrative was about, it fails horribly in the ending...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 10 juin 2013 - 07:33 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

For anyone interested, here's the list of main themes that I personally saw from the series up to just before the ending. I think an ending based off of these themes would have been much better appreciated by the fans, though of course that is my own hubris speaking.

Here's my ending concept itself. It is kind of hokey and not completely thought out, but I'd like to know how people would see it compared to what we have.

[NeonFlux117]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

For anyone interested, here's the list of main themes that I personally saw from the series up to just before the ending. I think an ending based off of these themes would have been much better appreciated by the fans, though of course that is my own hubris speaking.

Here's my ending concept itself. It is kind of hokey and not completely thought out, but I'd like to know how people would see it compared to what we have.

I agree with all your themes pre ending. Post ending is just nihilistic crap. Nothing matters, it's all reciprocal and things (like synthesis) will inevitably happen.Weak sauce. And dumb. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

For anyone interested, here's the list of main themes that I personally saw from the series up to just before the ending. I think an ending based off of these themes would have been much better appreciated by the fans, though of course that is my own hubris speaking.

Here's my ending concept itself. It is kind of hokey and not completely thought out, but I'd like to know how people would see it compared to what we have.

I agree with all your themes pre ending. Post ending is just nihilistic crap. Nothing matters, it's all reciprocal and things (like synthesis) will inevitably happen.Weak sauce. And dumb. 

And the ending took those themes and abandoned them for it's own purposes. The theme of the ending changed Mass Effect to justify the nihilistic ending crap we got. Pre-EC, I think CHud and SuperMac wanted you to pick Synthesis. I think to them, the whole point of the ending was Synthesis. So they created a scenario to justify it's addition.

[Bill Casey]

And Arrival fails horribly for that matter...
The achievement for blowing up a Batarian system is "The Ultimate Sacrifice"...

Harbinger: "You consider this a victory, a star system sacrificed"

**** you...
If you're a Renegade who doesn't like Batarians, there is no sacrifice...
And if you're a Paragon, Arrival isn't a victory. It's a second act defeat...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 10 juin 2013 - 07:48 .

[txgoldrush]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Sacrifice is, at BEST, a subtheme. Further, it is a theme that does NOT fit the character archetype that Shepard is. Shepard is NOT a tragic hero.

Mordin is a tragic hero, which is why his redemption includes him sacrificing his life.

Forcing the death of Shepard is an irritating and incompetent mismatch of character to character arc.

Wrong.

Notice how every normal ending ends with the memorial wall, talking about the sacrifices made to get there....

And Shepard only truly dies in synthesis.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Bill Casey wrote...

And Arrival fails horribly for that matter...
The achievement for blowing up a Batarian system is "The Ultimate Sacrifice"...

Harbinger: "You consider this a victory, a star system sacrificed"

**** you...
If you're a Renegade who doesn't like Batarians, there is no sacrifice...
And if you're a Paragon, Arrival isn't a victory. It's a second act defeat...

I'm a neutral guy who's willing to do whatever I have to and sacrifice whatever and whoever I need to stop the Reapers. Arrival works alright for me. There's nothing I can do for the Batarians. If the blast from the relay doesn't kill them, the Reapers will.

No use in caring about them. Will caring make things any better for them?

I have my limits on what I'm willing to sacrifice though. Miranda. The Normandy. My friends. 

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 10 juin 2013 - 07:53 .