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Wow.....most of BSN just completely miss the point of the ending.


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#226
Malanek

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txgoldrush wrote...

Someone does not have the Extended Cut. That part has been rewritten and for good reason. You may not WANT to kill synthetics, but you have to.

Now its, "But be warned, others will be targeted, the Crucible will not discriminate, all synthetics will be targeted, even you are partly synthetic" HOWEVER, if you explore further, if you have low EMS you get this....

"All technology including those who rely on synthetic technology to survive will be lost, yourself included"

In high ems however, you get this.

"There will still be losses but no more than what you already lost"

So its explicitly told in low EMS that you will die, not so in high EMS.


Quotes snipped. It still says...

"But be warned, others will be targeted, the Crucible will not discriminate, all synthetics will be targeted, even you are partly synthetic"

You admit it doesn't say anything to tell Shepard, "but hey you will survive." All three choices are still presented as if Shepard will die.

#227
AlanC9

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Well, Shepard can be a bit more hopeful in the high-EMS state, both for himself and all the others.

I agree that it doesn't sound like his survival is assured or even all that likely.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 juin 2013 - 04:29 .


#228
txgoldrush

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Kataphrut94 wrote...

I hate to be the sort of person who crows about their preferred ending at the expense of the others, but surely Control is just as much of a 'screw you' to the Reapers as Destroy. By controlling them, you're taking away their free will and confining the original Catalyst to the great Recycle Bin in the sky. Not to mention you also preserve the free will of your synthetic allies (you know, by not killing them).

If we're arguing about sacrifice, it's slightly stronger than Destroy (though not quite as strong as Synthesis) because it's self-sacrifice, as opposed to pawn sacrifice.


And there is a HUGE thematic difference between TIM's quest to control the Reapers and Shepard assuming control of them.

TIM seeks this power and sacrificed anyone to achieve this goal without thought, all in the name of power and human dominance. And in the end he failed.

But for Shepard to do so, he would have to give up "everything he has", and his connection with his crew, for a power he never really seek. He has to make the ultimate personal sacrifice to do so. And when he is Reaper God, he seeks to protect everyone or leave the galaxy to solve their own problems, depending on the genophage outcome and his or her alignment....not to dominate the galaxy for one species.

This fits the theme of sacrifice perfectly.

#229
txgoldrush

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Malanek999 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Someone does not have the Extended Cut. That part has been rewritten and for good reason. You may not WANT to kill synthetics, but you have to.

Now its, "But be warned, others will be targeted, the Crucible will not discriminate, all synthetics will be targeted, even you are partly synthetic" HOWEVER, if you explore further, if you have low EMS you get this....

"All technology including those who rely on synthetic technology to survive will be lost, yourself included"

In high ems however, you get this.

"There will still be losses but no more than what you already lost"

So its explicitly told in low EMS that you will die, not so in high EMS.


Quotes snipped. It still says...

"But be warned, others will be targeted, the Crucible will not discriminate, all synthetics will be targeted, even you are partly synthetic"

You admit it doesn't say anything to tell Shepard, "but hey you will survive." All three choices are still presented as if Shepard will die.


But when its explicitly stated that he will die, he will.

#230
FlamingBoy

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Absolutely no shock when I read the title this was going to be a gold rush rant about the inability of peoples to comprehend biowares "genius" :)

When ever I doubt myself, I just remember rush, and my convictions are confirmed

#231
Tron Mega

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AlanC9 wrote...

Well, Shepard can be a bit more hopeful in the high-EMS state, both for himself and all the others.



hope???

ME3s ending removes all hope.

even your head cannon cant save ME3s ending.

#232
KaiserShep

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AlanC9 wrote...

Well, Shepard can be a bit more hopeful in the high-EMS state, both for himself and all the others.

I agree that it doesn't sound like his survival is assured or even all that likely.


It's kind of amazing, seeing as how even the most subtle change in the way a scene is made can have such a huge effect. Imagine the rubble scene, but this time, with a spotlight scanning over it and comm chatter saying they found something, just as Shepard takes a breath. 

#233
hiraeth

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KaiserShep wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, Shepard can be a bit more hopeful in the high-EMS state, both for himself and all the others.

I agree that it doesn't sound like his survival is assured or even all that likely.


It's kind of amazing, seeing as how even the most subtle change in the way a scene is made can have such a huge effect. Imagine the rubble scene, but this time, with a spotlight scanning over it and comm chatter saying they found something, just as Shepard takes a breath. 


exactly. it would have taken so little to make such a huge difference. i wonder what the big deal was with being a little bit more committed to shepard's survival in ONE of the endings.

#234
AlanC9

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Tron Mega wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, Shepard can be a bit more hopeful in the high-EMS state, both for himself and all the others.

hope???

ME3s ending removes all hope.

even your head cannon cant save ME3s ending.


What headcanon are you talking about? We see the galaxy saved; there's no head about it, it's just canon.

But I was talking about Shepard's POV, not the player's. Though I don't really got a dog in this fight; none of my Sheps are particularly concerned with what's going to happen to themselves, so the whole personal sacrifice issue isn't really relevant to them. I was only posting to suggest that txgoldrush is pushing a reasonable point to unreasonable lengths.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 juin 2013 - 05:34 .


#235
3DandBeyond

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Malanek999 wrote...

Don't agree with the OP. Only destroy has any outstanding sacrifice (the geth). IMO if there is a theme to the ending it would be to look to alternatives to destruction, which had been your goal throughout the series. It tries to examine the morals behind slavery, war, and forging a genuine peace.

The problem with that is it fails badly because the vast majority of people are hideously offended by the genetic invasion of synthesis and the fact each individual gets no choice about it. It reaches the point where the warmongering choice seems by far the most moralistically acceptable as well as safest. It also didn't help that the science behind synthesis exceeds the already blurred lines between sci-fi and sci-fantasy. I don't think those factors were intended.


It's this and also the idea that the devs went from Shepard and company (in some playthroughs) consistently forging new and better understanding between synthetics and organics (or trying to) to the idea that all along synthetics will want to or idiotically accidentally kill all organics and anything organic that could one day become sentient and self-determinant.  Cool but not what this game was about.  You don't go from synthetic life that strives to be more like organics or to self-determine and try and get along (after a learning curve) to, "you know Shep they'll only end up killing you all" and think that makes sense for Shepard to say, "yep, that's the truth.  Let me push a button and take care of that."

You also don't go from synthesis consistently actually taking place in the game (synthesis is the combining of two or more things to make some new thing)-collectors, reaper variants, reapers themselves-the synthesis completely of organic and synthetic, and more to "must have synthesis, can't do synthesis".  You also don't go from extreme versions of synthesis showing the bad effects of synthesis (the collectors, the zha'til) to "hey isn't synthesis just a great idea?"  I don't think the person that wrote the ending ever played this game or understood this story.

#236
AlanC9

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KaiserShep wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Well, Shepard can be a bit more hopeful in the high-EMS state, both for himself and all the others.

I agree that it doesn't sound like his survival is assured or even all that likely.

It's kind of amazing, seeing as how even the most subtle change in the way a scene is made can have such a huge effect. Imagine the rubble scene, but this time, with a spotlight scanning over it and comm chatter saying they found something, just as Shepard takes a breath. 


You mean the memorial scene didn't beat us over the head enough with what the breath clip meant? Too subtle?

Yeah, I know..... this should have stopped surprising me months ago.

One of the odder things I've learned from hanging out here is that I have an uncanny ability to interpret scenes the way Bio intended them to be interpreted. Maybe Bio's beta testers all think like me? 

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 juin 2013 - 05:37 .


#237
elrofrost

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3DandBeyond wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Don't agree with the OP. Only destroy has any outstanding sacrifice (the geth). IMO if there is a theme to the ending it would be to look to alternatives to destruction, which had been your goal throughout the series. It tries to examine the morals behind slavery, war, and forging a genuine peace.

The problem with that is it fails badly because the vast majority of people are hideously offended by the genetic invasion of synthesis and the fact each individual gets no choice about it. It reaches the point where the warmongering choice seems by far the most moralistically acceptable as well as safest. It also didn't help that the science behind synthesis exceeds the already blurred lines between sci-fi and sci-fantasy. I don't think those factors were intended.


It's this and also the idea that the devs went from Shepard and company (in some playthroughs) consistently forging new and better understanding between synthetics and organics (or trying to) to the idea that all along synthetics will want to or idiotically accidentally kill all organics and anything organic that could one day become sentient and self-determinant.  Cool but not what this game was about.  You don't go from synthetic life that strives to be more like organics or to self-determine and try and get along (after a learning curve) to, "you know Shep they'll only end up killing you all" and think that makes sense for Shepard to say, "yep, that's the truth.  Let me push a button and take care of that."

You also don't go from synthesis consistently actually taking place in the game (synthesis is the combining of two or more things to make some new thing)-collectors, reaper variants, reapers themselves-the synthesis completely of organic and synthetic, and more to "must have synthesis, can't do synthesis".  You also don't go from extreme versions of synthesis showing the bad effects of synthesis (the collectors, the zha'til) to "hey isn't synthesis just a great idea?"  I don't think the person that wrote the ending ever played this game or understood this story.


I think it depends on if you saved the Geth or not. Not to mention if EDI is alive. But my Shepard wouldn't risk all for the sake of one. But since He (I) did manage to save the Geth, Destroy option is out of the question.

Also Synthesis. Many (including me) did find it insulting to choose this option without consulting all. I mean, who the hell am I to make this sort of decision. And the AI? Please.. the AI (starchild) has no meaning of what life is. It's simply running a program. My Shepard would never let it make that kind of decision.

Why to me, Control is the only option (and not a great one either).

Modifié par elrofrost, 12 juin 2013 - 05:51 .


#238
Iakus

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AlanC9 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Well, Shepard can be a bit more hopeful in the high-EMS state, both for himself and all the others.

I agree that it doesn't sound like his survival is assured or even all that likely.

It's kind of amazing, seeing as how even the most subtle change in the way a scene is made can have such a huge effect. Imagine the rubble scene, but this time, with a spotlight scanning over it and comm chatter saying they found something, just as Shepard takes a breath. 


You mean the memorial scene didn't beat us over the head enough with what the breath clip meant? Too subtle?


Ash has never before exhibited psychic or precognitive abilities.

So yeah, too subtle.


One of the odder things I've learned from hanging out here is that I have an uncanny ability to interpret scenes the way Bio intended them to be interpreted. Maybe Bio's beta testers all think like me? 


Given when the first rumors about the original endings started circling, I dismissed them thinking "This is too stupid for words, Bioware would never go this route.  There'd be riots"  I think Bioware's beta testers don't think much like the players at all.

Modifié par iakus, 12 juin 2013 - 06:56 .


#239
IntelligentME3Fanboy

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i don't understand why so many people care about whethar shepard survives or not.The game ends after 3 minutes

#240
Iakus

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It's called "closure"

#241
KaiserShep

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AlanC9 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Well, Shepard can be a bit more hopeful in the high-EMS state, both for himself and all the others.

I agree that it doesn't sound like his survival is assured or even all that likely.

It's kind of amazing, seeing as how even the most subtle change in the way a scene is made can have such a huge effect. Imagine the rubble scene, but this time, with a spotlight scanning over it and comm chatter saying they found something, just as Shepard takes a breath. 


You mean the memorial scene didn't beat us over the head enough with what the breath clip meant? Too subtle? 


Actually, yes. The problem is that the imagery doesn't make sense. It doesn't help that the epilogue jumps back and forth through time. All of this comes down to poor planning on the part of the writers when they assembled the epilogue. It's not as though I think maybe Shepard actually died; I think that's bogus. The point is that it doesn't just leave a feeling of being incomplete, it's also illogical. They skimped on the variation of epilogue, and the level of ambiguity it reached created a strange void where closure should have been, and it wouldn't have taken much to fix this too.

Now say you have this memorial scene and it has two versions based on EMS, and if it's high enough, you have the nameplate being put up and it's just revealed to be Anderson, followed by that subtle smile. It makes no sense to have Shepard's nameplate if Shepard lived. I was thinking that maybe this might be pedantic on my part, but this does illustrate some of the sloppiness here. This is pretty much the reason why MEHEM exists. I'm sure most of the people who install it are well aware that Shepard lives, but the way it's shown just isn't satisfying. 

Yeah, I know..... this should have stopped surprising me months ago.

One of the odder things I've learned from hanging out here is that I have an uncanny ability to interpret scenes the way Bio intended them to be interpreted. Maybe Bio's beta testers all think like me? 


Don't assume that I don't understand the intention of scenes in the game. My point is that the way the scene was executed was not done particularly well. 

#242
Modius Prime

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It's been over a year. Nothing you say, or do, is going to change the ending. There really is no point anymore in arguing -.-

#243
hiraeth

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KaiserShep wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

One of the odder things I've learned from hanging out here is that I have an uncanny ability to interpret scenes the way Bio intended them to be interpreted. Maybe Bio's beta testers all think like me?


Don't assume that I don't understand the intention of scenes in the game. My point is that the way the scene was executed was not done particularly well.


Yeah, if BW asked me whether I thought they wanted to imply Shep's survival in that scene and I had to answer yes or no, of course I'd say yes (otherwise I assume they would have just omitted the scene). However, that doesn't mean the scene was done well, or that it left players feeling like Shep's survival was victorious/satisfying/meaningful/whatever. I get that they wanted to hint that Shepard survived, but it was horribly executed and left me feeling incredibly disappointed.

#244
hiraeth

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Modius Prime wrote...

It's been over a year. Nothing you say, or do, is going to change the ending. There really is no point anymore in arguing -.-


I agree that the ending isn't going to change. I have to admit, though, venting over how poorly-executed I think the ending is makes me feel a little bit better about my disappointment in ME3. 

FWIW, I argue a lot less than I used to on these forums.

#245
Tron Mega

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AlanC9 wrote...

Tron Mega wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, Shepard can be a bit more hopeful in the high-EMS state, both for himself and all the others.

hope???

ME3s ending removes all hope.

even your head cannon cant save ME3s ending.


What headcanon are you talking about? We see the galaxy saved; there's no head about it, it's just canon.



you mean if we pick high EMS destroy?

#246
CronoDragoon

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iakus wrote...
To the Catalyst, there is no difference.  It's all "conflict"  When a fire burns and all that.


The Catalyst's fire line is unrelated to future organic/synthetic conflicts. He's referring specifically to the Reapers and their actions.
 

I would think it would be self-explanatory and require no dialogue:  With no Reapers, the organics will be on their own when the "inevitable" conflict comes around again.  It will be up to the organics themselves to keep that from happening.  That means organics will have to exterminate every synthetic that gains sentience as it happens, if not before.  Something the Catalyst does not express confidence they will be able to do, of course.

 I absolutely refuse to endorse the idea that the Catalyst knows the future, only what it sees as probabilities.


Since you admit the Catalyst believes conflict will arise again, then you cannot say that the Catalyst believes Destroy is a solution because the Crucible destroys synthetics. The Catalyst does believe it to be inevitable that synthetics and organics will conflict, and so the time gap between the Crucible firing and synthetics being rebuilt again is not a "solution" at all.

I'm talking about the Reapers preserving synthetic life.  There is zero evidence of that.  They harvest genetic material for their Reapers.  Everything we've seen of Reapers up til this point they have treated synthetic life as tools and nothing more.


I don't blame you for zoning out during the Catalyst's EC dialogue, but he says that they harvest all organic AND synthetic life. It's there in the game, and unless you want to spiral down an IT-reminiscent hole of deciding whether or not the Catalyst is lying - and about what - then it can be taken as fact that the cycles harvest both organics and synthetics.


Ensure the safety of organic life now

You can provide no dialogue that this is why the Crucible works as it does (because the Catalyst wants synthetic life dead to protect organics). Instead you ask me to infer from some nebulous logic, but that is asking me to believe: The Catalyst, given the mandate to preserve life, is willing to completely destroy forms of life he has previously tasked himself to harvest for a small respite of O/S peace, even though he "knows" that further O/S conflict post-Destroy is inevitable.

That is not logical. Since neither in-game evidence nor logic supports the "Destroy does what the Catalyst wants" interpretation, I can't accept it. Of course, since the Catalyst's dialogue and relationship to the Crucible are intentionally vague and nonsensical, I hesitate to call your viewpoint "wrong" as if there was one clear-cut explanation. The endings are a mess, but some explanations are still worse than others.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 12 juin 2013 - 08:04 .


#247
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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Yes, he says they harvest both synthetic and organic. Just played it again recently.

#248
Brovikk Rasputin

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I agree with OP. Ending is very very satisfying for the people who get it.

#249
Iakus

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CronoDragoon wrote...

The Catalyst's fire line is unrelated to future organic/synthetic conflicts. He's referring specifically to the Reapers and their actions.


To the Catalyst, all violence and competition is "conflict"  It never refers to war, revolution, or natural selection.  It's all "conflict"

 

Since you admit the Catalyst believes conflict will arise again, then you cannot say that the Catalyst believes Destroy is a solution because the Crucible destroys synthetics. The Catalyst does believe it to be inevitable that synthetics and organics will conflict, and so the time gap between the Crucible firing and synthetics being rebuilt again is not a "solution" at all.


"And maybe the horse will sing"


I don't blame you for zoning out during the Catalyst's EC dialogue, but he says that they harvest all organic AND synthetic life. It's there in the game, and unless you want to spiral down an IT-reminiscent hole of deciding whether or not the Catalyst is lying - and about what - then it can be taken as fact that the cycles harvest both organics and synthetics.


I didn't zone out.  I'm saying that statement in EC is utter and complete nonsense on top of the sheer nonsense of the endings.  Nonsense with a side of nonsense that flies in the face of everything we've learned about the Reapers over the entire trilogy.  EC deserves to be mocked for that line alone.




You can provide no dialogue that this is why the Crucible works as it does (because the Catalyst wants synthetic life dead to protect organics). Instead you ask me to infer from some nebulous logic, but that is asking me to believe: The Catalyst, given the mandate to preserve life, is willing to completely destroy forms of life he has previously tasked himself to harvest for a small respite of O/S peace, even though he "knows" that further O/S conflict post-Destroy is inevitable.


Yes, because by its own logic, the current system won't work anymore (don't ask how it came to that conclusion, as letting Shepard bleed out would have ensured teh solution worked just fine) 

But one "solution" is instead of harvesting organics, to allow them to prevent the rise of synthetics themselves, forwarned of how "conflict" is inevitable if they let them gain a foothold.  It's not a solution the Catalyst likes.  But it's one organics may be receptive to trying.

That is not logical. Since neither in-game evidence nor logic supports the "Destroy does what the Catalyst wants" interpretation, I can't accept it. Of course, since the Catalyst's dialogue and relationship to the Crucible are intentionally vague and nonsensical, I hesitate to call your viewpoint "wrong" as if there was one clear-cut explanation. The endings are a mess, but some explanations are still worse than others.



Well I can't accept a lot of things about the endings.  But this "interpretation" for want of a better word, makes my brain bleed least.

#250
Reorte

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AlanC9 wrote...

You mean the memorial scene didn't beat us over the head enough with what the breath clip meant? Too subtle?

No, not too subtle, too unsatisfying. The intent behind it and the memorial scene are clear, even though neither really makes any sense since they rely on "Well, this is a story therefore this must getting shown because..." instead of actually being able to stand on their own right. I.e. both rely 100% on context and convention of the sort where a character's feelings about information they can't possibly know about are as good as actually knowing.